Suggested tweak to pld and whm

[csBahamut]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I like burns more than conventional parties, and it isn't just about the XP/HR but I actually have much more fun in a fast paced Burn that I've ever had on a regular party. Dealing with all those mobs and doing so many things at the same time is fun for me.
So why don't I start asking for nerfs against conventional parties so I can get everyone to play the way I think they should play?
Edit > And yes I think is about player mentality but that doesn't make it a problem.

It's not that people want conventional parties to give better exp/hr than burns. People just want the option to exp by either burn or conventional party.

I really don't see why people who like TP-burns so much, are so against allowing conventional parties get the same exp/hr. Is it some kind of "I'm the only one who should be able to get 1337 exp/hr!!!111"? There should be nothing wrong with allowing both methods to get good exp.

[Raydeus]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

OMG!

He chooses Warrior because it's a better job! That means Paladins aren't getting invited!

Because Warriors can use Ridills and all Paladins can use are lolExcaliburs! Because WARs deal damage and no one gives a shit about anything else! Is it this hard of a concept?!?! This is a "what's wrong with PLD and WHM" thread, not "I personally like Tp burns and STFU bish."

Until a Paladin can exp (with or without his excalibur) and get equal exp as a war (with or without his ridill), the game is not balanced.

So... the only way to solve PLD's situation has to involve nerfing all the other jobs, weapons, etc, huh? I'm glad you aren't on the Dev. team.

Also WHM and THF might not seem to be invited in NA burns, but I've seen plenty of them in JP burns. That's just an example of how it's a player mentality thing much more than a game balance thing.

And I forgot to mention: I know the difference between Aegis and Excalibur. But I don't see any enmity+ on Aegis, whereas I can't think of a better hate-generator (on stuff you can hit) than Excalbur.

The problem with PLD in a burn paced party is about damage taken and MP wasted because of it (which is why Aegis is so much better than Excalibur, since emnity or PLD's damage really isn't the issue here).

That's pretty much the same problem BLMs have with this type of party.

It's not that they don't work, it's just that they can't keep up with the amount of consecutive fights. They simply run out of steam after a while, and have to rest, which would kill chains in a burn playstyle.

It's not that people want conventional parties to give better exp/hr than burns. People just want the option to exp by either burn or conventional party.

I really don't see why people who like TP-burns so much, are so against allowing conventional parties get the same exp/hr. Is it some kind of "I'm the only one who should be able to get 1337 exp/hr!!!111"? There should be nothing wrong with allowing both methods to get good exp.

See, that's not the problem at all, my posts have been about improving conventional parties so they can make the same xp/hr as TP burns (or even more).

After all I'm a PLD too, and I'd want to party as a PLD without feeling I'm gimping XP.

However the problem here isn't about improving conventional parties and make them evolve after so many years (so they become more efficient and get better xp/hr as a result). The problem is about envy and how the only thing they can suggest is "Nerf this, nerf that because I don't like it".

For instance:

Then players who enjoy killing weak monsters quickly can do that, and players who enjoy killing tougher monsters that take more time and teamwork and tactics to kill can do that, and nobody has to feel that they're being coerced into a specific playstyle by exp rates.

Have you read anything that's been posted in this thread? Or just Lmnop's posts? I don't want to kill burn parties. Maybe they're great for you, but I'd like to find a home for plds, whms, and I'll also toss in thieves (who lose a significant portion of utility when they're not closing SCs that outdamage other peep's WSs).

Yet they are more than happy to force everyone else to play their way by nerfing them.

If it really was about having options without messing with other player's fun they would be asking for things like an increase in XP gained from IT++ mobs, that way they could fight mobs "that can hit back" and made the fight worth it xp-wise.

Make SC+MB work better so they can deal a good amount of damage and speed things up too, in other words enhance party-play mechanics.

Why does the solution have to require nerfing someone?

It seems because it isn't about a solution, but about messing with other people's fun out of envy or anger or who knows what in the process.

But I'm not a psychologist so who knows. /shrug

[Murphie]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I guess I need to get some original ideas. Although to be fair, I was making points before Raydeus and I started agreeing.

PLD was my very first "main" job in this game, and I've loved it ever since. I'm not trying to keep PLD down, but rather figure out what nerfing other jobs, or bringing up gear that PLDs can't even equip have to do with what's wrong with PLD.

[Lmnop]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Huge post warning!

We'll start off with what's most pertinent:

If it really was about having options without messing with other player's fun they would be asking for things like an increase in XP gained from IT++ mobs, that way they could fight mobs "that can hit back" and made the fight worth it xp-wise.

Karinya's talked about this multiple times in the last month. If you haven't seen it, I don't know what to say. Here's her best summary of the situation yet from that other thread:

Actually, fighting ITs doesn't necessarily involve huge downtime if your party knows what they're doing. (Well, unless you consider 10 seconds "huge") What it *does* involve is longer *fights* - IT's don't just roll over and die like wImps. Additionally, areas with IT mobs don't have the ultra-short pop times of Caedarva/Zhayolm/etc., so by the time you get to #5 the puller may have to go quite a ways to find the next mob.

But the thing that really kills IT parties is that although their mobs are more than twice as tough, and take more than twice as long to kill, they're worth maybe 50% more base exp than the weak mobs burn parties kill. Or less. It all comes back to the exp system again. Weak mobs are worth a lot of exp relative to their difficulty, while mobs that are much more difficult are worth only slightly more exp.

That's why the best party in the world in Uleguerand Range isn't going to come close to the average Caedarva massacre. The exp system is against them, and that's an enemy even the best party can't defeat.

Karinya also said similar things in this thread as early as page 2.


On PLD relics:

which is why Aegis is so much better than Excalibur, since emnity or PLD's damage really isn't the issue here

I would bother to tell you about how if PLD could reliably hold hate off of monstrous melee in end-game on weak mobs, that the DDs could go even more apeshit, yada yada but I don't need to because you seemed keenly aware of this on page 1:

And they could also either make PLD's abilities generate even more hate or make hate decay much lower (maybe negating hate decay with shield blocks regardless of damage taken or even making shield blocks generate hate with Shield Mastery).

Indicitive that at one point, you agreed that reliably holding hate in one form or another really would enhance PLD. Sorry, but I gotta elaborate:

So until PLD (or any tank for that matter) has the ability of keeping himself at the top of the hate list without having to ask the DD to hold back in their attacks then DD/NIN will be the most efficient way of doing things.

I think it's time I tackled that bad habit of yours...

But this isn't about BRDs or any other job being overpowered or not, this is just another "they have (/can do) something I don't (/can't) so they need to be nerfed" kinda thing.

So... the only way to solve PLD's situation has to involve nerfing all the other jobs, weapons, etc, huh? I'm glad you aren't on the Dev. team

The problem is about envy and how the only thing they can suggest is "Nerf this, nerf that because I don't like it".

and this whole block:

Yet they are more than happy to force everyone else to play their way by nerfing them.

If it really was about having options without messing with other player's fun they would be asking for things like an increase in XP gained from IT++ mobs, that way they could fight mobs "that can hit back" and made the fight worth it xp-wise.

Make SC+MB work better so they can deal a good amount of damage and speed things up too, in other words enhance party-play mechanics.

Why does the solution have to require nerfing someone?

It seems because it isn't about a solution, but about messing with other people's fun out of envy or anger or who knows what in the process.

But I'm not a psychologist so who knows. /shrug

And to all of that, all I can say is:

don't shove words in my mouth.

And I think Karinya shares my sentiments.

You enjoy your tp burns, but you never even once considered my perspective. Do you know what used to make people choose WAR? It was versatility, it was the abilty to adapt. The ability to prove your mettle in many situations, and never have a dull moment because when one thing got old, you chose a new sub. Did you know that I enjoy tanking? And that I enjoy even war/nin tanking with a good party layout that makes it possible? Now enter the game where it is now: I'll never ever get a BRD to trust me as solo tank with some help from Carnage Elegy (some of the greatest fun I've had in this game). I'll never get to use my 3 other fully leveled subs (that I took months off of WAR to level). And I never get to try team work. Some people hate exping and hate having to pay atttention to stuff. I, for one, enjoy nothing more than a party with good chemistry, with everyone getting along and working together for exp.

You want to talk about how much I want to shove my "standard" layouts down your throat, but do you realize I've had your tp burns shoved down my throat for a year now (it started @60 in Ule against raptors for me, before AU came out)?

--------------------------------------------------

I'm very sorry to say this, but I feel you're no longer arguing a point. You're arguing to be right. All you said in your last post was that killing tp burns was not the solution, when I never indicated that I wanted to kill them.

This is 8 pages long, and Vyuru's signature is ringing horrendously clear these days. I don't hate my naysayers yet. If you want to keep posting, well I... can't gaurentee that I won't be back to defend myself. But this isn't constructive anymore.

[Raydeus]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Indicitive that at one point, you agreed that reliably holding hate in one form or another really would enhance PLD.

Well of course I agreed that hate was an issue but they are 2 different situations.

One is the problem with PLD's staying on top of the hate list so DDs can deal full damage without needing Utsusemi to survive or without becoming an MP sponge because of hate issues (that post was about how to improve PLD emnity to help conventional setups).

The other is about PLD in a fast paced party like a Burn, where hate isn't an issue but where the amount and speed of fights is such that PLD simply can't keep up (the Aegis part).

And I think Karinya shares my sentiments.

You enjoy your tp burns, but you never even once considered my perspective. Do you know what used to make people choose WAR? It was versatility, it was the abilty to adapt. The ability to prove your mettle in many situations, and never have a dull moment because when one thing got old, you chose a new sub. Did you know that I enjoy tanking? And that I enjoy even war/nin tanking with a good party layout that makes it possible? Now enter the game where it is now: I'll never ever get a BRD to trust me as solo tank with some help from Carnage Elegy (some of the greatest fun I've had in this game). I'll never get to use my 3 other fully leveled subs (that I took months off of WAR to level). And I never get to try team work. Some people hate exping and hate having to pay atttention to stuff. I, for one, enjoy nothing more than a party with good chemistry, with everyone getting along and working together for exp.

You want to talk about how much I want to shove my "standard" layouts down your throat, but do you realize I've had your tp burns shoved down my throat for a year now (it started @60 in Ule against raptors for me, before AU came out)?

No one is forcing you to do anything, if you make the choice of play your way then you just gotta do that, but do not expect other players to follow you without a reason just because you say so.

It's exactly because I consider not only your perspective but everyone else's that I'm against "bad adjustments" unless every other option has been explored.

Every nerf will affect many other players and doing so just to force them to play in a specific way is what I consider wrong about this. Nerfs should be the last option, not the standard solution.

I'm very sorry to say this, but I feel you're no longer arguing a point. You're arguing to be right. All you said in your last post was that killing tp burns was not the solution, when I never indicated that I wanted to kill them.

This is 8 pages long, and Vyuru's signature is ringing horrendously clear these days. I don't hate my naysayers yet. If you want to keep posting, well I... can't gaurentee that I won't be back to defend myself. But this isn't constructive anymore.

I agree with you here, not only this stopped being constructive, but it also got severely boring.

So yep, I'll just call it an move on.

[csBahamut]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

See, that's not the problem at all, my posts have been about improving conventional parties so they can make the same xp/hr as TP burns (or even more).
After all I'm a PLD too, and I'd want to party as a PLD without feeling I'm gimping XP.
However the problem here isn't about improving conventional parties and make them evolve after so many years (so they become more efficient and get better xp/hr as a result). The problem is about envy and how the only thing they can suggest is "Nerf this, nerf that because I don't like it".

I probably should have said that I notice more pro-TP burn people complain about changing endgame exp'ing, rather than the larger blanket statment I used.

For instance:
Yet they are more than happy to force everyone else to play their way by nerfing them.
If it really was about having options without messing with other player's fun they would be asking for things like an increase in XP gained from IT++ mobs, that way they could fight mobs "that can hit back" and made the fight worth it xp-wise.
Make SC+MB work better so they can deal a good amount of damage and speed things up too, in other words enhance party-play mechanics.
Why does the solution have to require nerfing someone?
It seems because it isn't about a solution, but about messing with other people's fun out of envy or anger or who knows what in the process.
But I'm not a psychologist so who knows. /shrug

True, but buffing 1 job is the same thing as nerfing the other 15 or 18 other jobs. Same with nerfing 1 job. It buffs the other 15 or 18 jobs that didn't get any changes. Generally, it's a lot easier to make a few changes, than a whole of other changes. It's a lot easier to predict the effects of 1 change, than it is for multiple changes. It really shouldn't matter whether the fix is either a nerf or a buff, as long as it can be done. I know that people hate having things taken away once they get them, but sometimes it's just a decision between who get's offended. Really, as long as it's fixed, I could care less how exactly.

[Murphie]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Buffing one job is not the same as nerfing every other job. And nerfing one job is not the same as buffing every other job. That's insane troll logic*.

If I, for instance, as a Warrior were nerfed damage wise, how is that helping to boost the damage on another DD class, or boost the casting abilities for a mage, or boost the tanking abilities for a tank? It doesn't. It just means I'm doing less damage. If a Paladin's ability to hold hate was increased, that doesn't mean that DD are doing less damage, or Healers are healing for less, and so forth.
It just doesn't work that way.

*This is not me calling you a troll. It's a reference to a TV show.

[Lmnop]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

ugh, I didn't wanna come back here. I was just getting along with Ray.

The idea is that the community would be buffed. Case and point: The ranger nerf at least quadrupled the invite rate of every other DD. Everyone's /seacom was "RNG burn only." It sucked. Now that S-E has cleansed the servers of most of the RNG fanboys, they've fixed RNG and now it's the best of both worlds. A great DD that isn't overdone or overused. This is why I won't cry one bit when Warrior (MY JOB) gets nerfed. Flavor-of-the-month syndrome is so problematic...

But yeah, the point is. Every melee DD felt like they had a chance because the -only solution to all life's problems- was gone. Not that I'm keen on nerfing, and I definately feel they overdid the RNG nerf, but it was a good move to fix things that were exploits (Ranged attacks not being subject to level difference, for instance). until TP burns became the norm, it also gave tanks a place again (since the ideal seemed to have been rngx5 + brd).

While I'm here, I'm gonna toss out a buff idea for whm. I don't think there are enough mobs (at least end-game) to capitalize on this, but we'll see what you think:

First, I was thinking about what if the Bar-status spells were changed so they simply prevented the next single attack of that type. Thus, WHMs having the -ra line of spells would be able to protect an entire party against paralyze for one AoE paralyzing move, and then they'd have to recast. Thing is, rdm/whm gets access to most if not all of those spells, so that may not be a good idea.

But then there's the (better?) idea of just making them all new WHM-only spells. Poison Ward, Silence Ward, etc. Put them in the order that you learn the -na spells. I wouldn't mind seeing a few (like poison ward) sub-able, but the nasty ones should all be 37+. Only being able to have one Ward spell up at a time, I don't think it'd overpower too many things (though it may make some NMs too easy).

The idea is that it would encourage parties to grab a WHM and tackle mobs that people wouldn't normally target. So people would be more apt to exp on mobs that would be easy if not for truely horrendous status-inflicting attacks - and of course create purpose for WHMs in the process.

Errrr that's it.

[Icemage]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Better yet, give us some new WHM-only spells like Barstatusra II that do what you say and prevent the next status attack of that type. I'd kill for Barsleepra II at Vrtra, for instance.

Allowing Bar-elementra II might be a bit too strong. Kirin would be way too easy with Barstonra II if it stopped the next earth damage attack, for instance (Stone V for 0? Stonega IV for 0? Just a wee bit unbalanced).


Icemage

[Mhurron]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Better yet, give us some new WHM-only spells like Barstatusra II that do what you say and prevent the next status attack of that type. I'd kill for Barsleepra II at Vrtra, for instance.

A Barsleep that actually helps prevent you from falling asleep instead of sort of making it wear off faster would be nice.

Bar-element spells would have to up your resistance more then the first tier, or have a complete resist that slowly wears off. Say the effect lasts for 3min, at first cast you have 100% damage resistance, by 1.5 min in you have 50% and so on.

[Vyuru]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Allowing Bar-elementra II might be a bit too strong. Kirin would be way too easy with Barstonra II if it stopped the next earth damage attack, for instance (Stone V for 0? Stonega IV for 0? Just a wee bit unbalanced).

Or what about this, make Bar-elementra II reduce the damage dealt by the difference in spell levels.

Example, Barstonra II reduces Stone V's damage to Stone III damage levels.

Actually Lmnop's post makes me wonder, do the Bar-element spells scale up as you level or do they give a set amount period?

Say the effect lasts for 3min, at first cast you have 100% damage resistance, by 1.5 min in you have 50% and so on.

A bit of a tweak on the FFX Barelement spells? I could see that, the casting time for it should be kind of long though, I don't think it'd be right if a whm could toss up Barstonra under those conditions in .5 seconds if they saw Monster X starts casting Stonega XXXVI say. I also don't think it'd be right to get a blink effect vs tier II ancient magic as well.


You know, I always think of some characters in previous FF games as being characteristic of certain jobs, hence my comment, why not give paladins an ability similar to Celes's Runic ability?

[Akashimo]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

To the teir 2 bar-elementalra idea, it could work in blocking say, with haste + 10% haste gear(not counting in /rdm with warlocks mantle) the recast time on it would be 1 min. So It'll still block, just can't spam it easily like the teir ones. Basicly like a nin with spider slow on ni timers :O Maybe also barlightra and bardarknessra with a 50% chance with the Blessed Tunic to block light or darkness based damage.
Oh, lets also throw in enlight and endarkess that can buff any party member with the recast and duriation of haste to rdm's spell list. Or give enlight to WHM, endark for BLM. Base for dmg would be (target's Int + Str) / (caster's mnd + vit) * (chr of reciever) / (chr of caster). =3

[Karinya]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Better yet, give us some new WHM-only spells like Barstatusra II that do what you say and prevent the next status attack of that type. I'd kill for Barsleepra II at Vrtra, for instance.

Or Diabolos. Barparalyzra II would be great at Seiryu and Byakko, too, not to mention Dynamis-Jeuno in general.

I love this idea - protective magic is one of WHM's great strengths but their specific protective spells are so weak you can hardly tell the difference from not having them at all.

Allowing Bar-elementra II might be a bit too strong. Kirin would be way too easy with Barstonra II if it stopped the next earth damage attack, for instance (Stone V for 0? Stonega IV for 0? Just a wee bit unbalanced).
Icemage

Bar-elementra II could be, instead of complete resistance like the status, a damage absorb effect vs. that element only (like the new Rampart effect, but even more restricted). Allowing each person affected to absorb an amount of damage equal to the caster's Enhancing Magic skill (plus maybe 20-30 for that JSE with the enhance barspells effect) would be significant, but not so much that you would just shrug off stonega 4, meteor, hurricane wing, AM2s etc., even if every party had a WHM. On ther other hand, it would be awesome against puks' wind AOE or Cursed Sphere, which makes WHM a great choice against those types of mobs - exactly what Lmnop was trying to promote in the first place.

Duration (if not used up) and recast both a minute would also keep it from being used to completely shut out NM fights that are based on spamming that effect (e.g. Faust, avatars), while still being useful against mobs that use the effect only occasionally. You could use it against Bahamut but only if your DDs were able to pace themselves and not trigger too many megaflares too fast. Sudden attacks of an unpredictable element (e.g. Kirin's Astral Flow) will still nail you unless you guessed right, and SE could choose not to include light or dark versions so Proto-Ultima and Dynamis Lord (and Alexander and Odin, when they get around to introducing them) can still be just as brutal as ever.

[Lmnop]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I can see that working... I could also see magic stoneskin-esque effects being single target only, instead of AoE. So you could keep nailing your PLD with it while he's trying to tank Eruca, for instance. On the other hand, making it AoE would enable melee parties with WHMs to be able to more effectively take part in some end game content, where normally melees just absorb damage and become cure sponges.

The idea for the bar-status II spells (or Wards as I called them since S-E used the term Magic Ward that worked on a similar principle in Vagrant Story) would about need to be AoE, and I'd want the recast to be much shorter than it's duration. Maybe even with it being 1 duration/1 recast would be good if it means just getting it introduced though. But then it would become a "routine" thing instead of a "reaction" thing. And whm's boring enough. Curse Ward while fighting dinos in Sacrarium -- whenever you see "RandomDD's Curse Ward effect wears off," you'd know to "OMG cast it again!"
But that may reduce WHMs' reliance on the -na spells too much. It was bad enough back in the day when WHMs refused to go to Torama camp because they didn't wanna have to do all the -na spells. While this would make those types of monsters more attractive to fight, it may make WHMs even lazier.

[Murphie]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

ugh, I didn't wanna come back here. I was just getting along with Ray.

The idea is that the community would be buffed. Case and point: The ranger nerf at least quadrupled the invite rate of every other DD. Everyone's /seacom was "RNG burn only." It sucked. Now that S-E has cleansed the servers of most of the RNG fanboys, they've fixed RNG and now it's the best of both worlds. A great DD that isn't overdone or overused. This is why I won't cry one bit when Warrior (MY JOB) gets nerfed. Flavor-of-the-month syndrome is so problematic...

But yeah, the point is. Every melee DD felt like they had a chance because the -only solution to all life's problems- was gone. Not that I'm keen on nerfing, and I definately feel they overdid the RNG nerf, but it was a good move to fix things that were exploits (Ranged attacks not being subject to level difference, for instance). until TP burns became the norm, it also gave tanks a place again (since the ideal seemed to have been rngx5 + brd).

There is no reason to nerf a job because of player perception. If the community is too stupid and lazy to figure out what else works other than the FOTM party setups, then they deserve to be standing around in their mog houses all day.