Suggested tweak to pld and whm

[Karinya]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I'd be more than happy to see a change in Bard mechanics, but that would be very hard to do. Make their buffs too weak and now you have no reason to use them. Improve their other buffs and you make pro-Bard favoritism even stronger. If you really look at it, Bards are only strong when they have many people to give buffs to.

True. In fact, in response to Lmnop's question about when you don't want a bard, they aren't that useful in most of the 3 person BCNMs. Sometimes uninterruptible sleep is nice, but most of the time a bard in a 3 person BCNM is only half as effective as normal (or less, because buffing themselves really doesn't do much).

However, 99% of the content in this game is done mainly by 6 or more people, so this isn't a very restrictive restriction in practice.

SE has changed bard mechanics before; etudes haven't always been single target. Fast single target ballads instead of the current slow AoE ones? It'd be a huge benefit to PLD and BLU that party with bards, but kind of a nuisance for 5 BLM+BRD in Dynamis and HNM.

This thread has gone a little off topic, but I guess any job balance thread will bring up TP burns sooner or later because they're the gaping chest wound in job balance.

[Lmnop]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

3-man BCs is where I typically want BRDs the most. Since Elegy is twice as powerful as Slow, anything that's not earth-resistant becomes cake. This is where you get Rng/nins tanking (well, pre-nerf. Though post-nerf-fix they may be able to do a decent job at it again) and crap like that. We've all heard it before, but just in case anyone's forgot: War/nin + brd + anything that can heal and cast haste kills stuff very fast.

But yes, to go a wee bit back on topic...

People are concerned that if you up PLD's hate control, they'd just sub NIN. I, for one, do not want pld/nin to become the norm. It seems that perhaps the solution to that is to increase Warrior's affinity for hate-gain instead. Maybe even *gasp* Taunt (or whatever that JA is that's been in the .dats for years). At any rate, I'd like to see a scaling hate-gain with PLD. In the same way that DDs get more hate on weaker mobs, PLD needs a method of gaining more hate the weaker the mob is.

[Raydeus]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

We have a PLD on my server with Excalibur -- EXCALIBUR! He merits on his War/nin with Ridill because he thinks it performs better. If you don't see what's wrong with this, you simply don't understand the concept of online gaming enough to be making suggestions.

I'd like to know what you mean by this, is Excalibur supposed make PLD do more damage than WAR? Or does Excalibur help PLD take less damage and be more efficient as a tank?

Because if it doesn't do either then having Excalibur wouldn't help a PLD in a merit party at all except for some extra damage Emnity.

[Murphie]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Excalibur isn't really that great, considering the amount of work that goes into it.

[Raydeus]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Excalibur isn't really that great, considering the amount of work that goes into it.

But just imagine Dual Wielding Excalibur and Mandau!

Don't you feel so excited about it that you'll want to spend the next 3-4 years of your life working to get them?

[Murphie]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

>.>;

Looking at Ridill and Excalibur side by side, I don't see why there is any outrage that Ridill performs better. Or what that has to do with PLD and WHM's issues, but that's another story altogether.

[Lmnop]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

first and foremost: because Ridill is broken. 2nd, Excalibur is supposed to be that good. There is simply no reason that one person who was lucky enough to get the drop from a rather easy NM should be able to out-perform another who spent 400 million gil - actually, the gil's not the biggest part. That thing is the culmination of months (years?) of work from an entire LS, not just one person.

Go deeper: why shouldn't a PLD with Excalibur perform better? Not everything is so one-dimensional as "more DD than you" is it? A PLD with some of the greatest gear in the game is statistically (not realistically, since I don't know that) capable of outDDing a "bought" war/nin (PCC, Haub+1, dual axes, nothing Rare/ex except AF where needed). However, this PLD also has Cure spells, Flash, Auto-Refresh, Shield Mastery, yada yada. With some party intelligence, this PLD should be capable of achieving the same exp as everyone else. Is it? I don't know. That's why we make threads like this.

I know that you love trying to strawman all of my arguments, Raydeus, but the point is that "that's just not right." Is the problem really game mechanics or is it mentality?

I've answered my previous concern: how to increase PLD's hate inversely to mob level (as level of mob decreases, hate sustaining increases). That method is simply to become a DD while you tank and still not take much damage. Is it possible?

Looking at Ridill and Excalibur side by side, I don't see why there is any outrage that Ridill performs better. Or what that has to do with PLD and WHM's issues, but that's another story altogether.

That's... not outrageous? It's outrageous that it's so easy to see why Ridill is better. Even with Excalibur doing 3x damage and doing add'l effect mini-Spirit's Within all the time.

[Icemage]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I've answered my previous concern: how to increase PLD's hate inversely to mob level (as level of mob decreases, hate sustaining increases). That method is simply to become a DD while you tank and still not take much damage. Is it possible?

This is the situation that Ninjas are in right now, and it's not a healthy thing for game balance. I don't really think there's much wrong with Paladins now. The only things I'd suggest at this point would be a job trait like Enmity Bonus that gives +2 (cumulative) Enmity bonus at 4 different level points (maybe 10, 35, 50 and 70?).

If Square-Enix wants Paladins to tank, they should put their money where their mouth is and give Paladins the traits and abilities to hold hate without using Provoke as a crutch IMO.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Well, good luck waiting for them to fix Ridill.

[Raydeus]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

first and foremost: because Ridill is broken. 2nd, Excalibur is supposed to be that good. There is simply no reason that one person who was lucky enough to get the drop from a rather easy NM should be able to out-perform another who spent 400 million gil - actually, the gil's not the biggest part. That thing is the culmination of months (years?) of work from an entire LS, not just one person.

Go deeper: why shouldn't a PLD with Excalibur perform better? Not everything is so one-dimensional as "more DD than you" is it? A PLD with some of the greatest gear in the game is statistically (not realistically, since I don't know that) capable of outDDing a "bought" war/nin (PCC, Haub+1, dual axes, nothing Rare/ex except AF where needed). However, this PLD also has Cure spells, Flash, Auto-Refresh, Shield Mastery, yada yada. With some party intelligence, this PLD should be capable of achieving the same exp as everyone else. Is it? I don't know. That's why we make threads like this.

I think you got the PLD relics mixed up, the one that makes PLD a better tank is Aegis, not Excalibur.

And just because you think that PLD should use his Excalibur 24/7 that doesn't mean that's the way things should be. If the guy made the choice of using WAR instead of PLD because it was more efficient for him then it's his call, regardless of what you think about it.

I know that you love trying to strawman all of my arguments, Raydeus, but the point is that "that's just not right." Is the problem really game mechanics or is it mentality?

It isn't right acording to you, but you are in no position to decide anything, you can say you don't like how things are now but your can't expect them to automatically become a bad thing just because you say so.

I like burns more than conventional parties, and it isn't just about the XP/HR but I actually have much more fun in a fast paced Burn that I've ever had on a regular party. Dealing with all those mobs and doing so many things at the same time is fun for me.

So why don't I start asking for nerfs against conventional parties so I can get everyone to play the way I think they should play?

Edit > And yes I think is about player mentality but that doesn't make it a problem.

[Vyuru]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Well, I think you are missing Amazo's point. The Ridill, which is a sword that seems to be fairly easy to get according to Amazo, outdamages Excalibur, which is a hard to get relic weapon that someone will spend the better part of a year to get, if not longer.

When you think about it, it IS absurd. All relic weapons have a chance to do 3x their damage, in addition to that the Excalibur has the added effect of dealing damage proportionate to the users current hp.

Now sure, pld can't use Ridill and wars can't use Excalibur, so I don't think it's fair to compare them, you've got two very different jobs doing two very different things, one focuses on DD the other focuses on tanking. Yet even so, it's rather silly to have something so superior to a relic weapon for an easy HNM where the greatest challenge is probably getting claim on it.

I think you got the PLD relics mixed up, the one that makes PLD a better tank is Aegis, not Excalibur.

While we aren't saying that the Aegis wouldn't make a pld a better tank, but the Excalibur WOULD increase the pld's damage output and help him hold hate better, thereby making him a better tank. I think it would be hard to tell which would be better, more damaging Shield Bashes vs more damage over time.

[Karinya]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I like burns more than conventional parties, and it isn't just about the XP/HR but I actually have much more fun in a fast paced Burn that I've ever had on a regular party. Dealing with all those mobs and doing so many things at the same time is fun for me.
So why don't I start asking for nerfs against conventional parties so I can get everyone to play the way I think they should play?

Because it would be redundant. Everyone already does play the way you think they should play, whether they want to or not, or they don't get any parties after level 70. That's the whole point of this thread and many others like it.

What I, and I think also Lmnop, would like is for the system not to be biased in favor of one kind of party or against another kind of party (possibly aside from completely idiotic parties like no healers at all - but a year or two ago no tanks at all would have been considered just as idiotic, and here we are). Then players who enjoy killing weak monsters quickly can do that, and players who enjoy killing tougher monsters that take more time and teamwork and tactics to kill can do that, and nobody has to feel that they're being coerced into a specific playstyle by exp rates.

[Murphie]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

So again, what does that have to do with Ridill? Especially in light of the fact that a PLD can't even equip the damn thing. It weakens your point when you keep talking about all of the things that other jobs have that make them great at their jobs, when it has nothing to do with what defines PLD or WHM.

[Akashimo]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

What one thing that could help in terms of making parties is redoing the search system back to the way it was by looking for people only in your level range.... I mean come on, why you want to see all the people lfp of all lvls in the area you're at?

Now as for Ridill vs Excalibur. As with everyone else, who cares? Just weapons to get if you have the time and pateince for it. Its a nice to have but not needed to do your job as. Think differently and its down hill for ya.

Yes, dealing out more dmg does help tank, but also managing how with what you got is the key. Start acting like a dd and you'll forget your place. Now I'm not telling you how to do your job, just keep in mind your mentality in playing it with the expectations of others.
(Though I should probally take my own advise sometimes when lfp rdm/war and whm/nin )

Anyways, as I see it, pld has the ability to tank and when in Mamoo Ja or anything with wyverns I'd take them over nin hands down. As whm, they could really use something like a regenaga with a tier 2 version.

[Lmnop]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I think you got the PLD relics mixed up, the one that makes PLD a better tank is Aegis, not Excalibur.
And just because you think that PLD should use his Excalibur 24/7 that doesn't mean that's the way things should be. If the guy made the choice of using WAR instead of PLD because it was more efficient for him then it's his call, regardless of what you think about it.

OMG!

He chooses Warrior because it's a better job! That means Paladins aren't getting invited!

Because Warriors can use Ridills and all Paladins can use are lolExcaliburs! Because WARs deal damage and no one gives a shit about anything else! Is it this hard of a concept?!?! This is a "what's wrong with PLD and WHM" thread, not "I personally like Tp burns and STFU bish."

Until a Paladin can exp (with or without his excalibur) and get equal exp as a war (with or without his ridill), the game is not balanced.

It isn't right acording to you, but you are in no position to decide anything, you can say you don't like how things are now but your can't expect them to automatically become a bad thing just because you say so.

Have you read anything that's been posted in this thread? Or just Lmnop's posts? I don't want to kill burn parties. Maybe they're great for you, but I'd like to find a home for plds, whms, and I'll also toss in thieves (who lose a significant portion of utility when they're not closing SCs that outdamage other peep's WSs).

I'm sooooo sorry that I suggested nerfing Bards. I'm fine with people prefering them as tanks on things over Paladins. I'm fine with them forcing Rdms to replace Whms.

Murphie, I keep wanting to respond to what you say but it's all Raydeus-agreement so I hope that you realize I'm not trying to argue with him and ignore you.

And I forgot to mention: I know the difference between Aegis and Excalibur. But I don't see any enmity+ on Aegis, whereas I can't think of a better hate-generator (on stuff you can hit) than Excalbur.