Suggested tweak to pld and whm

[Karinya]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Sol 2: Create more IT+ mobs or 'traditional' party friendly monsters.
Problem: Exp over-time is not as good as 'burn' PT (evidence of lv60ish able to perform burn PT in ToAU, bibiki, boyada). Even on the new I-am-taking-2x-damage-on-WS mob, the exp over time is clearly not in the

(note: this is where the sentence ended in the original. Nevertheless it's clear what Kenki was trying to say.)

This is exactly why I proposed reform of the exp table to shift exp/hr rates in favor of parity between fast killing of weak mobs and slower killing of stronger mobs. Currently the speedkill partys are *enormously* more favored in exp rate; I think that bringing both party styles to the same exp rate (whatever rate that ends up being) will improve a lot of things including invite rates for the currently disfavored jobs (including blm, which go great in a traditional party fighting dangerous monsters because of the way black magic largely ignores level difference).

Sol 1: Enhanced Whm's ability to cure better.
Problem: This have been implemented. Whm gained Fastcast and very high cure potency through equipments and merits. A Whm can gain up to 70% of cure Potency (ie. Cure 4 can break 680HP) with the right setup and equipments. The use of Curaga, Regen, Cure V and several -Emnity equipments/food made Whm the most powerful Healing job in the game. However, no many people exploited this area due to equipments avaiablity; thus Whm remained quite inefficient than they should.

70%? Seriously? All I know of is noble's tunic for 10%, light/apollo staff for another 10%, and medicine ring which can be hard to keep the latent active on. What else is there that doesn't conflict with those equip slots? And a lot of people don't even have the noble's because it's so hard to get the ingredients for.

Anyway, this won't help much because speedkill parties don't need a better healer; they don't need a healer at all, because they're fighting monsters too weak to get through Utsusemi before they die. All they need is haste and crowd control and while a whm can provide those, a rdm provides them better.

[Nazo]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

70%? Seriously? All I know of is noble's tunic for 10%, light/apollo staff for another 10%, and medicine ring which can be hard to keep the latent active on.

Yeah, I was baffled by that too, looking at SomePage's list the most you could get to is 37% dual wielding Templar Mace and Asklepios.

[Gobo]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

For 70% +Cure Potency:

Nobles Tunic: +10%
Healing Feather: +10% (WHM ENM item)
Templar Mace/Light Staff/Apollo Staff/Healing Staff: +10%
Medicine Ring: +10% (with Latent)

Thats +40%, which is pretty much available at all times. The last 30% comes from

Korin Obi: Gain full effect of Lightsday/Light Weather Bonuses.

In Temenos there is always double Light "weather", so with the Korin Obi equiped all Cure spells gain +30% Potency (as do Banish spells and Holy). However outside of Temenos, you can only get +10%, and that's only on Lightsday.

[Karinya]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

so... they meant in Temenos on lightsday, with healing feather active, in yellow hp? Might as well throw in HQ nobles and make it 72%, that's a lot LESS unlikely than all of those other circumstances.

In any case it clearly can't apply to exp/merit situations, unless you know people that merit in areas with double light weather and only merit on lightsday. I'm pretty sure healing feather doesn't last long enough to make it practical for use in exp/merit either, so the most you're practically looking at is 30% with noble's and medicine ring active, 7/8 of the time. And if you start using curagas you'll lose the medicine ring (not to mention you have to either get hit or swap out of some zenith to activate it in the first place, and auto-regen will eventually shut it down anyway).

[Icemage]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I really wish there were some item that you could equip that turned off auto-regen or did 1 damage per tick in exchange for an effect. As it stands, Medicine Ring is pretty flaky - either you need a ton of rare gearswaps like Serket Ring/Vivian Ring/Zenith to force your HP into yellow. Not very practical otherwise.


Icemage

[Lmnop]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Incomplete Idea:

I was thinking about bards. And first, how overpowered they are (in this sense, they're overpowered because they simply have too much functionality, not because they're unlimited or invincible or able to exploit for major benefits -- nevermind, mazurka tanking is an exploit pure and simple) and second, how few songs you actually get to play as a BRD. Oh yeah, I guess there's a 3rd: people are too gung-ho on refresh.

What if you could "soft-cap" Refresh effects. Something like 5 mp/tic. What this would mean is that Refresh + Ballad 2 and you'd already be capped, making Ballad 1 pointless. This would mean you could Etude a BLM - of course you can in the game already, but since you can get 20 extra mp/minute, you take that instead.

The next part would be the "soft" part. Effects that extend the cap: Auto-Refresh Traits, Gear that provides (Noble's Tunic) or enhances (Relic Horn, Storm Fife) Refresh effects, and Corsair bonuses (the +1 bonus from having a SMN in the party as well as the +1 bonus for rolling an 11). Maybe Sanction Auto-Refresh, maybe not. I'd also make Juices able to stack with Refresh in a system like this (though S-E would probably disagree).

The idea is that one hand you're limiting the total amounts players have available to them but on the other hand, you've given them a reason to try combining effects (having smn + cor in mage parties is suddenly a lot more desirable than brds). This may hurt Pld, I realize, since they have the most need for constant high levels of Refresh... but like I said, incomplete idea. =)

To go Further, I'd like to make tier 2 songs more potent, but make them "overlapping effects." Meaning Victory March may give 19% Haste instead of 11% (or whatever) but it automatically overwrites Advancing March. Thus, you wouldn't give a PLD 2 Ballads if you could -- you'd be more inclined to hit him up with Minuet or... whatever.

This is something that I think would probably upset a lot of game balance, but I think from there, lots of changes could come into being to further where the game is.

[Murphie]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I don't think putting a cap on Refresh is a good idea at all. Of course, I'm probably biased.

[Raydeus]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Incomplete Idea:

I was thinking about bards. And first, how overpowered they are (in this sense, they're overpowered because they simply have too much functionality, not because they're unlimited or invincible or able to exploit for major benefits -- nevermind, mazurka tanking is an exploit pure and simple) and second, how few songs you actually get to play as a BRD. Oh yeah, I guess there's a 3rd: people are too gung-ho on refresh.

What if you could "soft-cap" Refresh effects. Something like 5 mp/tic. What this would mean is that Refresh + Ballad 2 and you'd already be capped, making Ballad 1 pointless. This would mean you could Etude a BLM - of course you can in the game already, but since you can get 20 extra mp/minute, you take that instead.

The next part would be the "soft" part. Effects that extend the cap: Auto-Refresh Traits, Gear that provides (Noble's Tunic) or enhances (Relic Horn, Storm Fife) Refresh effects, and Corsair bonuses (the +1 bonus from having a SMN in the party as well as the +1 bonus for rolling an 11). Maybe Sanction Auto-Refresh, maybe not. I'd also make Juices able to stack with Refresh in a system like this (though S-E would probably disagree).

The idea is that one hand you're limiting the total amounts players have available to them but on the other hand, you've given them a reason to try combining effects (having smn + cor in mage parties is suddenly a lot more desirable than brds). This may hurt Pld, I realize, since they have the most need for constant high levels of Refresh... but like I said, incomplete idea. =)

To go Further, I'd like to make tier 2 songs more potent, but make them "overlapping effects." Meaning Victory March may give 19% Haste instead of 11% (or whatever) but it automatically overwrites Advancing March. Thus, you wouldn't give a PLD 2 Ballads if you could -- you'd be more inclined to hit him up with Minuet or... whatever.

This is something that I think would probably upset a lot of game balance, but I think from there, lots of changes could come into being to further where the game is.

No

[Akashimo]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Incomplete Idea:

I was thinking about bards. And first, how overpowered they are (in this sense, they're overpowered because they simply have too much functionality, not because they're unlimited or invincible or able to exploit for major benefits -- nevermind, mazurka tanking is an exploit pure and simple) and second, how few songs you actually get to play as a BRD. Oh yeah, I guess there's a 3rd: people are too gung-ho on refresh.

What if you could "soft-cap" Refresh effects. Something like 5 mp/tic. What this would mean is that Refresh + Ballad 2 and you'd already be capped, making Ballad 1 pointless. This would mean you could Etude a BLM - of course you can in the game already, but since you can get 20 extra mp/minute, you take that instead.

The next part would be the "soft" part. Effects that extend the cap: Auto-Refresh Traits, Gear that provides (Noble's Tunic) or enhances (Relic Horn, Storm Fife) Refresh effects, and Corsair bonuses (the +1 bonus from having a SMN in the party as well as the +1 bonus for rolling an 11). Maybe Sanction Auto-Refresh, maybe not. I'd also make Juices able to stack with Refresh in a system like this (though S-E would probably disagree).

The idea is that one hand you're limiting the total amounts players have available to them but on the other hand, you've given them a reason to try combining effects (having smn + cor in mage parties is suddenly a lot more desirable than brds). This may hurt Pld, I realize, since they have the most need for constant high levels of Refresh... but like I said, incomplete idea. =)

To go Further, I'd like to make tier 2 songs more potent, but make them "overlapping effects." Meaning Victory March may give 19% Haste instead of 11% (or whatever) but it automatically overwrites Advancing March. Thus, you wouldn't give a PLD 2 Ballads if you could -- you'd be more inclined to hit him up with Minuet or... whatever.

This is something that I think would probably upset a lot of game balance, but I think from there, lots of changes could come into being to further where the game is.

No, no and triple no >_>;

[Lmnop]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

open minded much? I don't see why 3 responses of "No" should serve as enlightenment to what's wrong with my incomplete idea.

First, this wouldn't affect Refresh.

Second, this isn't as drastic as some things. It's not like it'd kill exp as much as putting a finite limit on exp chains as Karinya's suggested. And it's not like you need rediculous amounts of refresh for anything in this game.

Third, Bards really are overpowered.

I don't think this idea is the golden answer, and I wouldn't normally defend my own ideas. But you guys are being elementary in your reasoning.

EDIT: Oh, and this would also boost Corsair indirectly as they could always have a means of increasing the refresh beyond normal cap just by having a SMN in the party. That would reduce the amount of bitch-ery we hear about people who don't like the "inconsistent" buffs of COR.

[Karinya]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

The only bitching I've ever heard about COR is that there aren't enough of them. They are somewhere between "nearly as overpowered as BRD" and "even more overpowered than BRD".

Anyway, I think this idea is first and foremost unnecessary. Increased MP restoration has naturally diminishing returns: the more MP you have, the less you need more of it. Dark staves and other +hMP items, cookies, and sanction refresh demonstrate this pretty well: the need for refresh jobs is already lower than it has ever been. (Player perception of that need has not followed suit, but that's hardly SE's fault.) Most parties would work fine and have no trouble reaching chain #5 with a BLM, or even a WHM, doing their crowd control, a traditional RNG or THF puller, and no refresher at all; it's only the infinite-chain phenomenon that makes even trivial amounts of downtime intolerable.

Mages right now are limited in what they can do mainly by casting and recast times and the need to control their hate (and in WHM's case, by the fact that you can't heal more than all the damage your party is taking).

As you pointed out, you don't need ridiculous amounts of refresh for anything. So why bother limiting it? It's already usually silly to sing both ballads when a RDM is in the party.

Perhaps some underused songs could stand to be improved, and/or some of the overused/overpowered ones toned down a little, but I don't think Ballad is one of them, really. Ballad is only as good as the spells you're casting with it and at its best, dual ballad takes up both song slots to do a job no better than Refresh (albeit slightly less annoying to keep up). It's Minuet and Madrigal, and possibly the uninterruptibility of Lullabies, that are potentially overpowered and supercharge the whole party that has a bard in it. (But at the same time, they're giving up a party slot to someone who can't DD or nuke effectively and can heal only a little, so everyone else *has* to become better at what they're doing or the bard would be dead weight.)

[Murphie]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Bards aren't overpowered. People just rely on them too much. If anything, I'd say BRD is one of the most complete classes in need of no buffs or nerfs.

[Raydeus]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Bards aren't overpowered. People just rely on them too much. If anything, I'd say BRD is one of the most complete classes in need of no buffs or nerfs.

But this isn't about BRDs or any other job being overpowered or not, this is just another "they have (/can do) something I don't (/can't) so they need to be nerfed" kinda thing.

[Akashimo]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

And we mages love our freshies to death x.x;

Bards do on paper are complete as a class, but when people play them or exp with them, its using so limited of whats open to them. Most when I've gone on mnk or thf don't use etudes and just stick to minuet, march and madgril. Few use peon, etudes, or resistance songs.

[Murphie]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

But this isn't about BRDs or any other job being overpowered or not, this is just another "they have (/can do) something I don't (/can't) so they need to be nerfed" kinda thing.

I was just responding to the comment above. I should have quoted.