Suggested tweak to pld and whm

[Vyuru]

My suggestion is that pld and whm should gain traits that will allow their cure spells to heal about 10% more per spell, so Cure would return 33hp, Cure II would be 198 hp, and so on.

My thought is that both jobs right now are having a bit of trouble getting into parties at the higher levels. It seems the norm now for TP burns to either have a rdm or a smn main healer, and not to want a whm. Pld while improved, still could use a little boost.


Whm should get two of this trait, one at about level 40, the other at about level 55. The idea is that a Whm would now be able to heal better than any other mage. Once a whm got two of these traits, their Cure spells would be very potent, but I don't think they would be so healing so much more as to make a smn or rdm main healer obsolete, just not as preferred. Plus, whm would still need to rest or require refresh to keep their mp up.


Pld should only get one trait. The idea here is to open up the possibility of them being an offensive DD/healer. Now that they have Auto Refresh they don't need to rest to regain mp, while it's not much of a refresh, toss in Sanction Refresh, a Parade Gorget, and other refresh sources and it's suddenly very good. They have a fairly decent manapool at their disposal, and they also have the good healing/protect spells. I'm not 100% sure but I think that paladins get them slightly earlier than rdm do. Get a lvl 60+ pld in DD gear with a war sub, and he should be able to do some very decent damage while tossing out cures and Flash as needed. In addition to that, by increasing the power of their Cure spells you increase the amount of damage that a paladin is able to mitigate. Both of these reasons might make them more appealing to high level exp parties.

[Celeal]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

IMHO, for reducing the rate of mp usage against physical damage, Slow, Paralyze, Flash/evade, parry, shield block is more affective in long term compare to increase the potency of cure. We already have Light Staff to increase cure potency by 10%.

The way I see the current situation is:
1. In order to gain exp. points, the mobs needs to be defeated.
2. Higher damage output from the party, means faster the mobs die, which translates to higher exp. gain over time. (see point #1)
3. More damage dealers present in the party, means higher damage output. (see point #2)
4. We only have 6 slots in a party. (see point #3)

How to get the most damage output from a party while keep the party alive and going at the same time? (see points #1, #2, #3, #4)

Answer: TP-burn (currently). In the old days, mana-burn, arrow-burn, monks-bones-burn, etc.

The traditional PT setup, Skillchain + MB, which is the original design/concept, is obsolete at high level nowadays.

If S-E does not see the 4 points from above, I doubt S-E can fix it.

[Nazo]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Whm are already by far the best healers in the game, the problem is that they can't really do much of anything else and high level parties don't really want a dedicated healer when they could use that slot for a multi-purpose job.

[Vyuru]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

IMHO, for reducing the rate of mp usage against physical damage, Slow, Paralyze, Flash/evade, parry, shield block is more affective in long term compare to increase the potency of cure.

I agree, but to be honest I can't think of the last time a rdm enfeebled the mob. Most times when the mob is paralyzed it's because of Shiva's Ice Spikes. Pretty much the only time I see a mob enfeebled is either Blind by a paladin, or a ninja using the elemental wheel or else just certain Ninjitsu.

I don't know how much of a problem SE views TP burns, but given past examples it looks like TP burns are here to stay for awhile. Instead of trying to come up with ways to change or eliminate TP burns, it might be an idea of how to work with them instead. I read about how pld used to be more of a backup healing DD, and I thought this might be a good way to allow them to get back in that role if they so desired.

And I should say that I don't expect to see much magic cast on mobs like Colibri who cast it back at you, so I can understand not enfeebling those. But I am talking about mobs in the low IT range, who are easy to kill yes, but the fight does take a little bit, so a few enfeebles would be nice.

I don't think that high level parties want a multi-purpose healer, at least in regards to TP burns. All of the TP burns I've been in always yelled at the smn for using blood pacts and wasting mp, but that might change once you go higher up.


Still, I think it might be an interesting idea, might not be the best though

[Icemage]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

PLD have gotten some very substantial boosts lately, and while I don't think it has done much to help their XP party plight, it has really turned around their effectiveness at level 70+.

WHM got two nifty toys with the previous round of Group 2 Merits - namely Devotion and Martyr. Unfortunately, as merit abilities, these don't help those WHMs still trying to get to 75.

In a perfect world, I think WHM would get a lot more party invites if Devotion (transfer 1/4 of your current HP to another party member as MP) were instead a level 38+ ability.

Really though, the problem is that TP-burn parties focus intensely on efficiency over time. Perhaps the best way to alleviate the problem is to provide a new form of XP party that can rival a TP-burn that makes use of the currently less-desirable job. Of course, saying this and finding a design that does it successfully are two entirely different things...


Icemage

[Celeal]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I think the problem comes from the mobs as well. For example, like Colibri which brought up by Vyuru in previous post, while blm cannot nuke those Colibri, but melee can burn those without using food... <.<

The mob spawn time, defence against melee and magic, in ToAU and outside ToAU, and Signet should be revisted imho.

[Raydeus]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

PLD have gotten some very substantial boosts lately, and while I don't think it has done much to help their XP party plight, it has really turned around their effectiveness at level 70+.

I really don't know what else can they do for PLD save for making them ignore level difference when taking hits from anything up to 7 levels above the PLDs lvl (so IT would count as EM when calculating damage taken).

That of course would never apply to NM but it would be a good way to improve PLD's standing in xp parties.

And they could also either make PLD's abilities generate even more hate or make hate decay much lower (maybe negating hate decay with shield blocks regardless of damage taken or even making shield blocks generate hate with Shield Mastery).

The way things are now even with the new toys we got I feel like I'm hurting the party by taking the place another DD or a NIN could have and make xp flow much faster. >.<

[Icemage]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Actually, you know, I was in a merit party last night with a Paladin. We can joke all we want about lolPLD and such, but having a backup healer who can take hits and still deal some damage out works out VERY well even in TP-burns even if they never throw a single Provoke.

I know it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to have a Paladin available in a TP burn party when I'm on RDM - it takes some of the pressure off of me to ration out MP every 10 minutes between Converts, especially as I'm spending tons of MP casting Protect, Haste, Refresh, Dia II/III, Dispel, Paralyze I/II, Slow I/II, without even mentioning Regen and Cures.

Honestly, PLD has the tools to be very effective at TP-burn these days. Most TP burn parties bring overkill damage and not enough healing to the table, and a PLD does a really excellent job at covering for a RDM - he's basically a second Refresh battery for Cures.

EDIT: Incidentally, to anyone who would suggest that having a PLD in my merit party was "gimp" - I got 31000ish XP in just a shade over 2 hours with a PLD NIN WAR MNK BRD RDM setup, with me on RDM and not once did I ever manage to run out of MP on RDM even on occasions where we had massive amounts of links (at one point we were juggling SIX enemies - zero deaths, and still held the XP chain).


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Hmmm, that would require a major mentality change in most of the PLDs around, save for Maju I haven't seen anyone embrace the DD/Backup-healer aproach to PLD.

It might be an good solution for the situation, but in that case I'd level BLU instead because it would work better for that kind of playstyle.

I picked PLD because it plays similar to RDM and because I always wanted to tank and protect the party by being the one taking the hits, so I dunno if I'd be able to take another kind of aproach to the job without simply quitting for something else.

I think I would just keep playing RDM instead and forget about PLD for merit parties.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Really though, the problem is that TP-burn parties focus intensely on efficiency over time. Perhaps the best way to alleviate the problem is to provide a new form of XP party that can rival a TP-burn that makes use of the currently less-desirable job. Of course, saying this and finding a design that does it successfully are two entirely different things...


Icemage

I've always had a concept of a quest that granted a new form of signet should be added. Instead of only a bonus for chaining, a bonus would also be given for skillchains and magic bursts as well. Another bonus given for EXPing in Zones not under conquest by your nation.

Make it some quest, people on the mainlands are thinking the Near East has made adventurers soft and want to reinforce teamwork and strategy. Some questable NM involved and all that. Make it a quest accessable to players at level 50 thier first time through. Something like that.

[Icemage]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

Hmmm, that would require a major mentality change in most of the PLDs around, save for Maju I haven't seen anyone embrace the DD/Backup-healer aproach to PLD.

I've been a pretty solid fan of PLD as DD/backup healer for quite some time. With competent melees, you don't need the PLD to put out huge numbers as long as he's contributing. And while BLU and PLD play similar roles for a good stretch of levels, at 70 PLDs pull way ahead once they get access to Joyeuse (or failing that, Justice Sword at 73).


Icemage

[Vyuru]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I agree with Icemage, whm and pld have gotten some really kickass boosts, but most of those boosts deal with merit abilities, or at least that's what it looks like to me. While those are nice and all, it doesn't help the level 60+ whm or pld trying to get a party.

like Colibri which brought up by Vyuru in previous post, while blm cannot nuke those Colibri, but melee can burn those without using food... <.<

I've been wondering about those Colibri actually, if a Colibri got hit by two magic spells at the same time, what would it do? Could you time something like Blind with Thunder III? Could a blm drop a nuke on them at extreme spellcasting range, and dash out of range before the bird casts it back?

And while it is true that melee can go without using food, you'd be surprised at the amount of Sole Sushi+1 that the birds eat.

And they could also either make PLD's abilities generate even more hate or make hate decay much lower (maybe negating hate decay with shield blocks regardless of damage taken or even making shield blocks generate hate with Shield Mastery).

I REALLY like the idea of making shield blocks negating the hate loss for that hit, much like Counter does, it'd be interesting to see how much more hate a pld could hold that way.

Perhaps the best way to alleviate the problem is to provide a new form of XP party that can rival a TP-burn that makes use of the currently less-desirable job. Of course, saying this and finding a design that does it successfully are two entirely different things...

What about making 8 man parties available to higher level players in the 50-60+ level range? You could have the standard 6 man party, toss in an extra tank and healer and you could easily alternate healers and tanks each fight. If you wanted to tie it in with a quest, you could tie it in with the teamwork quests in Sand'Oria.

Of course an 8 man TP burn party would be rather scary to contemplate, so that might not be a good idea.

We can joke all we want about lolPLD and such, but having a backup healer who can take hits and still deal some damage out works out VERY well even in TP-burns even if they never throw a single Provoke.

That's good to know, I've never seen a pld go for a DD setup unless it was in a skillup party, so I haven't seen how well it would work. I have seen how well drk/whm can work though, and I would expect them to be somewhat similar.

Even if they aren't the main tank, I might start asking some plds to be a DD/backup healer if I can't find a suitable main healer.

[Neomage]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

I think SE just needs to add new monsters that are weak to the traditional EXP setup. They monsters should be weak for their level(like worms), hit super fast(like raptors, but low chance of spell interuption) and take extra damage from elemental attacks(like skillchains and magic bursts).

The problem with this is vaurnability to manaburns, but it would be much more EXP for a standard party.

[Lmnop]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

qutrub are already "technically" traditional party-friendly, as they take double damage from everything. Thus, while your closing WS does double damage and your SC damage matches your closer's damage, it counts as a unique attack and thus gets doubled. So you'd see Shark Bite 2k (instead of 1k, for instance) and light 4k (instead of 1k normally, or doubled 2k, it gets doubled off of it's base amount). They have a ton of different weapon skills... from reading FFXIclopedia, it doesn't seem like they'd be that terrible. I've even heard that despite being undead, drain and abs-type spells work on them. Could someone enlighten me as to why we never fight them (yes, I know they have lots of HP but... is it really THAT MUCH?).

As for pld... I think what Raydeus was talking about was PLDs. Other jobs love to speculate about making pld dd/healer, but less Plds want to go buy haub.

Shield blocks don't need to negate enmity loss because most shield blocks result in the paladin taking single digits of damage. Thus, very trivial amounts of enmity are lost. Really, if S-E wants to program something that complicated, I'd rather see it applied to a system that makes a big difference... something like completely reworking cure spell formulas. But then, Rdms would reap the benefits just as much as whms/plds. Dunno.

Seems to me that the way the game currently is, people could theoretically make other jobs fill spots in merit parties just as well as the war war war nin rdm brd layout. But it just takes a lot more thought and competence than the above layout. I dunno, I'm not in the merit parties yet. Seems like Chivalry + Devotion on a decent rotation with ballad on the WHM could be just as good as having a rdm + nin.

Oh yeah, Bards. No job can replace bards in "good" merit parties. That's not fair to Rdms, Corsairs, Summoners, even White Mages. It's not fair that if you want great exp and happy party members, one of 6 slots is already devoted to the rare bard. That seems like the fundamental flaw of FFXI.

In other news... is anyone else having trouble with Mysterytour? every time I click on say.. hand equipment, their database just shows one entry and it's a bunch of @ signs.

[Raydeus]

Re: Suggested tweak to pld and whm

As for pld... I think what Raydeus was talking about was PLDs. Other jobs love to speculate about making pld dd/healer, but less Plds want to go buy haub.

Yep, that's pretty much it, it would be like making BLMs mainhealers and debuffers without letting them nuke at all.

It could work, it could work well, but that goes against the reason I leveled PLD as my second job, so if I had to play PLD as DD/backup-healer all the time I'd just go duo with my npc instead or simply quit the job and go do something else.