The BLM Problem

[Gentoo]

Re: The BLM Problem

I don't think there's a BLM problem, really.

I disagree. There is a BLM problem. And a PLD problem... Maybe it's better to call them symdromes, with the core problem being unbalanced nature tied to ToAU.

It's perfectly fine to point out the issues that have been introduced. This thread originally went about the notion of modifying BLM in order to make it fit the new environment that S-E created. I don't think the primary cure is to change the jobs that are benefiting or being impeded. The environment is broken, and that needs to be addressed before S-E goes mucking around in job capabilities.

1. Direct stat adjustments to some of the weakest-for-their-level monster families.
2. Adjust the chain timer so that the chain continuation interval continues to decrease past Chain #5, even if the chain multiplier doesn't increase any further. #6 half the timer of #5, #7 one-third, #8 one-fourth etc. would be one possibility. Rewarding people for saving up some MP/TP to quickly kill #4 and #5 is fine, but infinite chains just provide too big an exp advantage to party setups/tactics/choice-of-enemies that are capable of them. Killing fast is already its own reward.

Wouldn't #1, with reduced spawn rates automatically reduce the length of chains? This is how S-E originally kept the evironment in a state of balance, and as you pointed out it worked resonable well.

Of course camp diversity also hinges on correcting the imbalance between Signet and Sanction, but I would be fine with fixing that in either direction (remove the bonuses from Sanction or add them to Signet). There's really nothing wrong with everyone making 15% more exp then they did 6 months ago

I really digs the notion of enhancing Signet.

However if S-E fixes the problems with the monsters in the ToAU zones, and just adds the 15% to anyone that has Signet, you'll have the reverse problem. Everyone will move out of the ToAU zones and back to the more traditional campsites (because you wouldn't even have to keep the AC to get the EXP bonus).

If you tie the bonus to -- say -- whichever kingdom is in first, then you'll still never get parties out of ToAU zones becuase players whose contries are in 2nd and 3rd won't ever want to give up the XP bonus.

If you simply give a bonus to people with Signet because the AC held by the Imperial Kingdom, then I believe Beseiged with provide a certain amount of intertia. Why would a bunch of players already stationed in Aht Urghan want to travel to Bibiki Bay when they can just stroll out a ToAU zone.

Really, it seems the only real way to encourage people to spread out over Vana'diel is remove the XP bonus, and adjust the monster levels in ToAU to be consistent with the rest of Vana'diel.

[Khevn]

Re: The BLM Problem

I completely agree with the above post. Basically S-E carebeared the game with's poorly thought out implimentation of the ToAU Expansion. The balance of EXP parties is so thrown out of whack now that, they might as well just remove PLD, BLM, WHM and SMN and give there spells and abilities to other classes. who the hell wants to play classes that can't get exp parties? I know I don't.

Also the expansion has been out for quite a bit now, and th content is still appallingly low. /Nin is still overpowered. Yes, thats right it's OP. anything that makes End-game exping that good for only a select range of classes, is simply OP. At the rate of how long it takes for the developers to finally decide on a fix, we might seem some balancing some time next year. Of course at the same time they'll proabably be releasing another Half-assed expansion that will ruin it anyways. The blatant negligence and ignorance to there own game, is simply apalling. Many eyes my ass, most of the problems that come with these updates and expansions are completely obvious and even 1 month of player testing on a test realm would have discovered the issue.

S-E your doing a shitty job, and thats why your losing clients around the world and your 360 release was practically a complete failure. The inability for to use any intelligence in your development, has ruined your game.

K rant over

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: The BLM Problem

who the hell wants to play classes that can't get exp parties? I know I don't.

THF.

'nuff said.



We can bash S-E all we want about them not thinking things out (Design is a very excruciating process), but I think the energy should be channelled towards some very efficient solutions to rectifying such subtle nuances.

My friend brought to my attention that NIN and other jobs dealing with japanese culture have yet to receive any resoluted tweaks. It had me thinking for a second, and then I thought it was kinda funny.

[Khevn]

Re: The BLM Problem

LoL why so we can get the same bullshit message they give to everyone, when they give them there ideas at conferences and shit? "I'll have to speak with (department name here). We currently working on the problem" or "That is a good idea, I'll tell that too (said name department)" /doesn't write anything down and laughs jovially.

The problem they need to work on is taking some action.

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: The BLM Problem

From what has happened (And what I can surmize about their past updates and future additions), S-E is against burn parties completely.

Hence the high magic resist in alot of the new areas.

They'll hopefully take some action towards the situation.

[Karinya]

Re: The BLM Problem

I disagree. There is a BLM problem. And a PLD problem... Maybe it's better to call them symdromes, with the core problem being unbalanced nature tied to ToAU.

I didn't mean that BLM weren't *affected* by the problem, but rather, that the problem is not due to the BLM job. BLMs are pretty much the same as they have always been; it's only everything else that has changed. There's no place for them in the new world order but they still do as well as ever in old school parties if anyone ever makes one. That's why fixing the exp rate gap between old and new style parties will fix BLMs automatically as a side effect. The parties that they are *already* good in will become just as effective as the parties that don't want them.

Lmnop's suggestion that as soon as BLMs stop being unwanted, they'll go right back to being the overpowered rockstar kings of the game they were for so many years... well, they still *are* overpowered rockstar kings of the game at anything other than exp, which is one of the reasons so few people are shedding any tears for them. Certainly I think the magic defense of some HNMs could stand to be reviewed, and possibly the TP given to the target of a damage dealing spell should vary with the damage dealt or the MP cost of the spell or something like that, but IMO those are pretty minor issues compared to the dominance of new exp party setups over old ones.

It's perfectly fine to point out the issues that have been introduced. This thread originally went about the notion of modifying BLM in order to make it fit the new environment that S-E created. I don't think the primary cure is to change the jobs that are benefiting or being impeded. The environment is broken, and that needs to be addressed before S-E goes mucking around in job capabilities.

Agreed - although I don't want that to be read as a criticism of the recent changes to SAM, DRG and SMN, which were a long time coming and (IMO) beneficial to balance. The main balance issues facing the game right now are bigger than any one or two jobs; job changes didn't create the problem and they won't fix it.

Wouldn't #1, with reduced spawn rates automatically reduce the length of chains? This is how S-E originally kept the evironment in a state of balance, and as you pointed out it worked resonable well.

Possibly. They don't have to implement everything on the list at once, and given their past approach to balance problems, they almost certainly wouldn't.

I really digs the notion of enhancing Signet.
However if S-E fixes the problems with the monsters in the ToAU zones, and just adds the 15% to anyone that has Signet, you'll have the reverse problem. Everyone will move out of the ToAU zones and back to the more traditional campsites (because you wouldn't even have to keep the AC to get the EXP bonus).

Most of the people exping in TAU areas aren't the same ones defending the AC anyway. They're too busy exping. (Freeloading bastards.) In any case, as long as Besieged gives IS and some people enjoy it, the AC will be defended a lot of the time anyway. There's also the benefit of having exp camps right outside the staging points, compared to the trek into Ro'Maeve or Uleguerand for example.

If you tie the bonus to -- say -- whichever kingdom is in first, then you'll still never get parties out of ToAU zones becuase players whose contries are in 2nd and 3rd won't ever want to give up the XP bonus.
If you simply give a bonus to people with Signet because the AC held by the Imperial Kingdom, then I believe Beseiged with provide a certain amount of intertia. Why would a bunch of players already stationed in Aht Urghan want to travel to Bibiki Bay when they can just stroll out a ToAU zone.
Really, it seems the only real way to encourage people to spread out over Vana'diel is remove the XP bonus, and adjust the monster levels in ToAU to be consistent with the rest of Vana'diel.

I was thinking +5, 10, 15% depending on your nation's conquest ranking. The people whose nation is in third might prefer to stay in the empire, but that still gives you 2/3 of the player pool to draw from. (And depending on their jobs, they might decide that 105% of exp now is better than waiting until they get another invite for 115%.) 10% and an uncrowded camp beats the heck out of 15% and a crowded camp - unless the pop rates are so high that everyone has more monsters than they can use anyway, but didn't we already assume that was being changed?

It says a lot about the current area balance that the fifth party at Mamool Ja Staging Point typically makes more exp - *much* more exp - than a party that has Lufaise, Uleguerand or Moongate all to themselves. Monster difficulty and pop rate parity will make an uncrowded camp better than a crowded one. So simple population pressure will spread parties around.

Don't forget the constant refresh, which I think probably adds much more than 15% to exp rates by reducing/eliminating downtime, facilitating faster kills and longer chains.

[Khevn]

Re: The BLM Problem

Ok so we're saying it's ok to nerf BLM's ability to exp, but we're not going to do anything about the melee's taking advantage of a glitch a called shihie. S-E admitted that it was never intended for tanking. You've had 2 1/2 damn years S-E fix it damn. I love the hell out of this game but since ToAU, this game has become unbearably terrible. Farmers and PL companies take up half the camps and HNM's, they can't seem to fix anything.


I was one of the people who really enjoyed PLD, loved every moment. Then ToAU came out, I couldn't get an EXP party for the life of me. I went to Sky died and dropped below 75, and then I couldn't get exp party to get my lvl back up for the life of me let alone a merit. Begged my guild, for a week, and left them because they refused to help. Now, I log on only on fridays, sit with Exp tab on, and pray that might get some type of exp group before sunday. so that maybe I still won't be 74 on monday. Pre-ToAU this was never that big a problem.

I feel for the BLM's S-E doesn't know what it's doing. PLD SMN BLM and WHM are getting the shaft in a big way. The best defence anyone can come up with for BLM's is, we don't want them to be on the top of DMG charts agian? OK last i checked if you sacrifice , your HP/def/and Mattack for MP and put tremendous wait times before attacks, then hmmm there should be some pay off there? I could be crazy, who knows. SMNer's have in my opinion had it the worst of all the classes. There supposed to be using summons for multiple roles but, instead they pop them out buff and out em away and then do a whm's job. WHM's are i getting shafted cause anyone class with a whm sub can heal, a ninja burn party. And PLD's are getting the shaft, because, a class that was intended to be a melee debuffer, has become a Melee/debuffer/tank with almost perfect mitigation. How can a standard tank keep up with compete near mitigation? You can't. Get off the bong, or crack, or whatever crap you programmers just seem to sit around and do all day and fix your damn game.

Thanks for fixing DRK and SAM though, finally got a few things right there.

[Lmnop]

Re: The BLM Problem

sorry Khevn but I don't think you're approaching this the right way.

S-E cannot feasibly make this game perfect, and that's how it'll always be. Don't pour your hatred onto S-E just because players are retarded. You have an MP pool and you can wear a haubergeon, I don't see why you're not playing Healer + DD. Ninja is a tank. It must remain a tank. That's the way it is. I don't want to rely on a paladin any time I want something done. Most Paladins seem to be enjoying ToAU, since they can tank easily with 3x melee + 2x backline in the Mire and make great exp. And when I say great exp, maybe it's only 10k/hour instead of 18k, but this is better than PLDs could usually hope for pre-ToAU. I still think they need more tweaks, it's true. But you can't just come in here and start crying about how broken everything about ToAU is.


@Karinya, I do think Blms are still the "overpowered rockstars" that they've always been @HNM. And that's why I say that if they're going to adjust BLMs and Exp (I really agree that balanced parties should make just as much exp as burn parties, giving players multiple ways to achieve the same results) than they'd better be implementing Icemage's proposed MB <-> Magic Resist idea.

However, it's true that most of S-E's problems could be fixed by flat out nerfs. And that these nerfs go against S-E's code of design (we cannot break Ranger, we can only revamp the way ranged attacks work). They simply cannot say "nvm, guys. AC no longer gives extra exp." However... I really like your 5/10/15 idea. Just having Signet would give some borderline bonus...

[Khevn]

Re: The BLM Problem

"How broken everything about ToAU is."

You said it. I endorse this statment.

[Macht]

Re: The BLM Problem

I disagree. There is a BLM problem. And a PLD problem... Maybe it's better to call them symdromes, with the core problem being unbalanced nature tied to ToAU.
It's perfectly fine to point out the issues that have been introduced. This thread originally went about the notion of modifying BLM in order to make it fit the new environment that S-E created. I don't think the primary cure is to change the jobs that are benefiting or being impeded. The environment is broken, and that needs to be addressed before S-E goes mucking around in job capabilities.
Wouldn't #1, with reduced spawn rates automatically reduce the length of chains? This is how S-E originally kept the evironment in a state of balance, and as you pointed out it worked resonable well.
I really digs the notion of enhancing Signet.
However if S-E fixes the problems with the monsters in the ToAU zones, and just adds the 15% to anyone that has Signet, you'll have the reverse problem. Everyone will move out of the ToAU zones and back to the more traditional campsites (because you wouldn't even have to keep the AC to get the EXP bonus).
If you tie the bonus to -- say -- whichever kingdom is in first, then you'll still never get parties out of ToAU zones becuase players whose contries are in 2nd and 3rd won't ever want to give up the XP bonus.
If you simply give a bonus to people with Signet because the AC held by the Imperial Kingdom, then I believe Beseiged with provide a certain amount of intertia. Why would a bunch of players already stationed in Aht Urghan want to travel to Bibiki Bay when they can just stroll out a ToAU zone.
Really, it seems the only real way to encourage people to spread out over Vana'diel is remove the XP bonus, and adjust the monster levels in ToAU to be consistent with the rest of Vana'diel.

I don't know about the environment being broken. I mean the area needed some serious incentive to get people over to it. I remember when it first showed up questions of the areas potential came about a lot, the major issue was always that there was only 1 actual way to reach Whitegate without using Warp. That was a 30 min. boat ride, that was a huge deterrant at first. Until they realized these zones give additional benefits.

If you were to remove that areas benefits while it still only having that painfully long boat ride as only method to reach the place without warp you'll kill that entire area. It's potential and purpose would take a huge hit from it. Why I feel the environment is likely going to stay this way till SE builds out the rests of the zones missions and probably also Besiege. Then when it's time the Sanctions will be adjusted and we'll get a totally different feel of the area then it is now.

See considering how that Besiege plays out and the structure it's centered around, I do have a strong feeling how the zones play out and such eventually are going to become more dependant on those Besieges. It's the only reason I could see SE spending so much time on changing and redesigning Besiege so much. It just seems like the things from that is going be a key component of that area eventually.

[Celeal]

Re: The BLM Problem

...Get off the bong, or crack, or whatever crap you programmers just seem to sit around and do all day and fix your damn game.

I just want to add that the programmers who do the coding are not necessary the same group who design the software. Especially for a huge project, usually programmers follow the software specification/design and do the coding.

Unless the programmer also involves with the software design (which is rare for huge project), he is not suppost invent/suggest something outside from the software specification/design. Usually things that programmer comment on the design is like, "we have issue with this implementation because of performance problem... We should not change this because of the constraint... blah blah blah"

Also, programmers are not necessary the ones who use their software everyday. They fix bugs and implement changes, but they are not the users of the software. I don't expect programmers in FFXI development team play FFXI 10 hours each day

Even the vision of the software designer may not perfectly match with users' expectation. A customer/user demand for changes is okay, but pointing fingers would not solve problems.

Back to the topic...
I think the players also contribute the problem as well: Instead of trying to have fun during exp. parties, they place too much value on exp/hour. We are not in a situation which having a BLM or PLD or WHM would cause everyone in the party dies in TP-burn parties.

[Gentoo]

Re: The BLM Problem

I don't know about the environment being broken. I mean the area needed some serious incentive to get people over to it. I remember when it first showed up questions of the areas potential came about a lot, the major issue was always that there was only 1 actual way to reach Whitegate without using Warp. That was a 30 min. boat ride, that was a huge deterrant at first. Until they realized these zones give additional benefits.

I completely agree with a 30 minute boat ride is a huge deterrant, and a rather large design flaw in my opinion. Instead of fixing the issue of making players sit "unproductive" for 30 minutes in game they want to play, S-E thought the better fix was to modified the environment to draw people in.
I don't agree that just because they suceeded in their goal of incenting players to the new zone they didn't wreak a disproportional amount of collateral damage.

Agreed - although I don't want that to be read as a criticism of the recent changes to SAM, DRG and SMN, which were a long time coming and (IMO) beneficial to balance. The main balance issues facing the game right now are bigger than any one or two jobs; job changes didn't create the problem and they won't fix it.

Yeah, sorry, didn't for mean that to come across. The changes to SAM, DRG, and SMN have long been overdue (since inception for SMN!).

S-E cannot feasibly make this game perfect, and that's how it'll always be. Don't pour your hatred onto S-E just because players are retarded. You have an MP pool and you can wear a haubergeon, I don't see why you're not playing Healer + DD. Ninja is a tank. It must remain a tank.

(There was an excellent discussion on this topic over at the ninja forum -- although it's another long read )
The general populace will be continue to flow like water and take the path of least resistance. While I agree with the notion that the Ninja should remain a viable tank, Ninja shouldn't be able to outclass Paladins in the manner they do. So given the nature of the player base, it's up to S-E to implement some equality. To borrow a phrase from Karinya: "This is, of course, a tricky balancing act, but these guys are professionals, it's hard to believe they can't do better than they've done so far."
Khevn is bitter about the situation, and although I find the vitriol excessive, I can't really blame him. His point is valid: S-E has had over 2 years to apply some fix to Utsusemi to put Ninja tanks on par with Paladin tanks.

(what does have to with BLM? -- Game balance! )

[Macht]

Re: The BLM Problem

I completely agree with a 30 minute boat ride is a huge deterrant, and a rather large design flaw in my opinion. Instead of fixing the issue of making players sit "unproductive" for 30 minutes in game they want to play, S-E thought the better fix was to modified the environment to draw people in.
I don't agree that just because they suceeded in their goal of incenting players to the new zone they didn't wreak a disproportional amount of collateral damage.

Now attacking their method of you getting to the zone is a cheap blow. Especially if you've been following the story there are reason's for it. Likely more methods to get to the areas are in plan to put there but they look to be tied to Aht Urhgan's storyline and missions. So it wouldn't be a smart move to prematurely create a deturrent until a comprimisable solution is in place. That likely isn't going to happen till the mysteries of why airships can't fly in that area are solved, which is part of the story if you've been following.

The boat ride you take was an intentional thing to give the feel of the place really being far east. Just the same tricks you see done in EQ and even the same tricks you see done in many other games, you can't give the solution right away without anything else. Hell even card games run on this were the card has to follow a synergy or structure, doesn't mean the players may always understand it at first.

[Gentoo]

Re: The BLM Problem

Now attacking their method of you getting to the zone is a cheap blow.

Just calling a fig a fig, and a trough a trough.

[Macht]

Re: The BLM Problem

Just calling a fig a fig, and a trough a trough.

Don't like it because the devlopers spent time creating this story and then people start getting mad because they make the game play match the story created. I like what they did with the boat being the only source in because it does draw you back into that world. It gives a feeling of vastness if you don't like the time it takes you can easily pass it by faster by being social.

Their method of adding in this part is as brilliant an idea as Timespiral bringing back older cards and making these wild combinations. Just the same as EQ's dynamic missions and many other things I could state to bring those worlds to life.