The BLM Problem

[Icemage]

Re: The BLM Problem

Why would using HP as MP for a spell be a "Dark Knight-like ability"? Black Mages use Black Magic. Black magic is destructive in nature. Saying such an ability should belong to Dark Knights is the same as saying Mijin Gakure or Convert should have been a Dark Knight ability, and makes about same amount of sense.

I fail to see how giving BLMs MP on a magic burst materially helps their situation. All it does is paper over the issue of insufficient MP to maintain activity. It bandages the problem, but does not fix it, since the MP return suggested is still too low to support the level of spellcasting that would be necessary to keep a BLM a productive member of a TP-burn party (and still does nothing to address the fact that no one bothers to skillchain).


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: The BLM Problem

Stealing vitality from others and using one's own vitality as a weapon is a strong theme in the dark knight design. I could see saying those abilities feel more like drk than blm, but drk and blm share some conceptual space, and I don't think it'd be wrong giving them to blm.

If there were some better way to theme it like drawing off ambient elemental energies or something that might be more appropriate, but I can't think of a good way to do that. Bonus to Conserve MP on magic bursts makes sense from the standpoint of the game world, but it feels gimmicky as a mechanic and like Icemage said, it really only does lip service to the problem is poor stamina. Besides, it still wouldn't work as long as people are to lazy or stupid to do skillchains, or just don't see enough value in them on their own.

[Macht]

Re: The BLM Problem

BLMs power is heavily weighted to Elements not Dark Arts. It's a major reason why BLMs Dark abilities are limited to Drain and Absorb, on top of which they get later then DRKs do. In all design the Stealing HP to give to MP sounds like a RDM/DRK hybrid type job.

Keep in mind I'm valuing Dark Abilities to the theme design Magic uses. Black relating decay, and torment. In the Magic world BLMs fit the Red colors more with spells associating to chaos, and destruction. So someone stating a HP absorb to give MP as it should be a DRK ability I have to agree with that statement.

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

I don't believe it is possible for BLMs to ever be in TP burns, no matter what changes are made. I also don't believe something like a MP return would be gimmicky at all, at least, thats if you don't believe MBs are gimmicky.

Besides, it still wouldn't work as long as people are to lazy or stupid to do skillchains, or just don't see enough value in them on their own.

A party like that shouldn't even succeed. That's like saying a party too lazy or stupid to kill a monster's exp gain is an issue.

Saying such an ability should belong to Dark Knights is the same as saying Mijin Gakure or Convert should have been a Dark Knight ability, and makes about same amount of sense.

While the 'flavors" of jobs can be transparent at times, they are there. While a Ninja's 2hr is not a good example to say the least. Like something minor as Monk's attachment to having a high HP, or Red Mage's having almost a metagame feel to it where they can easily change their position or stats and are almost like time-mages with Gravity, Haste, and Slow along with a high enfeebling skill. Dark Knights appear to be almost vampiric with drain spells and their 2hr and sacrificial with abilities like last resort and soul eater. Like you said, Black Mages seem be ideal for pure destruction, if one was going to keep that flavor intact, Black Mage is not the kind of job to convert a monster's lifeforce or their own lifeforce into magic(this alone seems suicidal), that is almost the same as what a Dark Knight would do. However, there is one side of Black Mage that is not developed as well, which would be the whole dealing with pure magic, mostly storing it into a pool to be used when most needed or saving some of it on a spell.

While such themes are ignored sometimes, SE seems to respect them enough as new stuff comes out. Personally, I see them as things to prevent all jobs looking exactly alike as the game progresses.

Anyway, with a boost to SC damage, it will be enough to encourage SCs being done again. If the bonus isn't strong enough then make it stronger. 10-20% is only an example, but if it isn't enough, 40-50% works as well.

[tdh]

Re: The BLM Problem

I see both sides of the arguement for HP spent to cast a spell instead of MP. I can see how this would work for a BLM, but I can also see the DRK parallels. DRKs are Vampires, and sacrificing their own blood to drain a foe's MP or HP does loosely fit the role.

That being said, a BLM would do anything to destroy their foe with their Black Magic. Even if that requires them to sacrifice their own life for it. They don't fit the tortured role like the DRK story line does, but I think it still fits the BLM role.

My issue with the idea is it would need to be an ability with a low /recast to really be that useful. Making it a 10 minute /recast like Elemental Seal wouldn't make it worth it, but 3 minute /recast may be too fast.

As much as we all seem to love speculation, S-E probably already has something in mind for BLM. They mentioned at VANAFEST 2006 that they plan to make them more effective when in a party. I would assume they're talking about EXP or Mission situations, but I guess we'll just find out once they get around to announcing things.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The BLM Problem

We keep going back and forth on "SE should give BLM X" or "SE should to make Y happen with skillchains."

Yet, the big issue is that of mob defense and repop time. We can say whatever about Sanction making these VT burn camps, thing is, VT camps were always viable and yet, we didn't have VT mobs this weak in other expansions.

Why are we dancing around this matter and suggesting things for BLM to help it fit the trendy TP burn?

Plain and simple, BLMs were preferred for IT++ mobs with high defense. Some of these mobs need to have their DEF raised or their level lowered and EXP payoffs reduced to reflect their true difficulty. Only one other person in the thread seems to be pointing that out.

We don't see people burning on Lamia, Shades, Qutrubs or Flayers. These people aren't lining up to slay Hilltrolls, Puddings or Wamuras with the same level of ease because they aren't physically weak in the same way and cannot be exploited for mass EXP gain even when they are VT.

I think Colibris could be given a potent melee damage reflection ability. Colibris could then shift between magic reflection and melee reflection at will. Such an ability would reflect melee damage and ignore shadows on melee when in physical reflect mode, magic could then be used.

Imps were once described to be like Detectors - a weak little guy prone to summon really bad things. At least, that was the backstory and the impression I was left with, it doesn't really seem to happen with them in ToA. Give them that big nasty friend to summon when attacked, make it IT++ and you stagger a PTs ability to burn Imps.

Puks, just raise their DEF and Evasion, make that Flash ability stick longer. a mage's performance isn't affected by Flash at all.

Make the mob harder, its abilities less pleasent and its a less-attractive burn option.

[Karinya]

Re: The BLM Problem

The thought of someone trying to burn flayers brings a smile to my face. There's no question that it would be totally different from burning puks (one of their tp moves is blink, which with a full party fighting it is gone before the animation finishes; blink is great in one on one fights but worthless when you're being ganged up on) or imps (really, why don't they use those horns and summon a demon or a taurus of the same level. That'd be fun.) or mamool (their eva boost would be annoying and maybe even dangerous... if everyone didn't have +100 accuracy and dispel).

However, as much as I have said it's the monsters in this thread and elsewhere, there's also the *other* elephant in the room - before TAU not everyone had a free vermy that took no equip slots, either. Sanction itself is hideously overpowered by pre-TAU standards (how much would you pay for a food that did that even if it *didn't* stack with other foods?), and I'd like to see what a party with Sanction-like buffs could do in Lufaise or Uleguerand before coming to the conclusion that it's *definitely* all about the monsters.

Or, how well does that TP burn do when trolls have the AC?

There are a lot of problems interacting: the overpoweredness of Sanction compared to any non-TAU camp where it doesn't work and there is no reasonable equivalent, mobs that are super weak to physical damage *and* pose no offensive threat (they hit like crabs and take hits like worms), and very permissive chain timers making it possible to get chain #infinity as long as you don't have a (ugh) tank slowing you down. Oh, and super-reliable CC that lets you pull like a madman and not pay for it. And the wider availability of haste gear making Utsu even more overpowered than before. And ultra-short repops making sure VT massacres don't run out of mobs or even have to roam to get them.

[Aeni]

Re: The BLM Problem

Stealing vitality from others and using one's own vitality as a weapon is a strong theme in the dark knight design. I could see saying those abilities feel more like drk than blm, but drk and blm share some conceptual space, and I don't think it'd be wrong giving them to blm.

If there were some better way to theme it like drawing off ambient elemental energies or something that might be more appropriate, but I can't think of a good way to do that. Bonus to Conserve MP on magic bursts makes sense from the standpoint of the game world, but it feels gimmicky as a mechanic and like Icemage said, it really only does lip service to the problem is poor stamina. Besides, it still wouldn't work as long as people are to lazy or stupid to do skillchains, or just don't see enough value in them on their own.

Better give DRKs Tier III spells and warp then.

[Macht]

Re: The BLM Problem

Stealing vitality from others and using one's own vitality as a weapon is a strong theme in the dark knight design. I could see saying those abilities feel more like drk than blm, but drk and blm share some conceptual space, and I don't think it'd be wrong giving them to blm.
If there were some better way to theme it like drawing off ambient elemental energies or something that might be more appropriate, but I can't think of a good way to do that. Bonus to Conserve MP on magic bursts makes sense from the standpoint of the game world, but it feels gimmicky as a mechanic and like Icemage said, it really only does lip service to the problem is poor stamina. Besides, it still wouldn't work as long as people are to lazy or stupid to do skillchains, or just don't see enough value in them on their own.

Only thing I can think that might work for BLMs in that idea is a trait along the lines of "Affinity for Elements". In which a spell the BLM casts if it's that elements current strength (Day and/or weather) it improves the chances of conserve MP and whatnot.

[Dyvid]

Re: The BLM Problem

I posted a long time ago about adding Fira, Blizzara, Stonra, Watera, Thundera, and Windra. Basically these spells would be a Damage/DoT Hybrid, half the damage of the spell would be upfront and half would be over a set time. This would equal a melee because they are basically using DoT damage to build TP then use a WS to do Spike Damage.

[Icemage]

Re: The BLM Problem

I think Omgwtfbbqkitten has hit the nail on the head. Maybe it's time to raise the level cap some more. Who cares if blm, whm, smn can convert/refresh. Just means some jobs won't get pushed aside so tp burns can get 12k/hr. "Well rdm and brd would be worthless!" Then give them a stronger refresh spell. "Well some melee would broken!" Like being forced to /nin isn't? Anyway back to the topic at hand...

You'd fix a relatively minor imbalance by unbalancing even more of the game? That doesn't compute from a game design standpoint at all (and I ought to know - I do amateur video game design and programming as a hobby ).

Also maybe SE needs to boost the SC/MB thing up to encourage more teamwork. I personnally don't understand why melee don't SC cause if i remember right Light and Dark add an extra 300-400 damage for free.

Light and Dark skillchains can do a base of 100% of the damage of the closing weaponskill (with a slight bonus for each additional WS linked into consecutive skillchains). I've seen Light closed for well over 2000 bonus damage when unresisted.

Unfortunately, unresisted skillchain damage on anything above a Tough is very rare.


Icemage

[Macht]

Re: The BLM Problem

I posted a long time ago about adding Fira, Blizzara, Stonra, Watera, Thundera, and Windra. Basically these spells would be a Damage/DoT Hybrid, half the damage of the spell would be upfront and half would be over a set time. This would equal a melee because they are basically using DoT damage to build TP then use a WS to do Spike Damage.

Well the idea is somewhat like Melee damage except spell DoTs are usually guarenteed unless you are planning to give it physics to the sort of Paralyze like were it has a chance of failing in it's DoT behavior. Other then that it's like the melee's but seems in reverse, because melee build up to the spike damage were your suggestion spikes the damage and then dwindles down.

The major problem to building a spell like that to be like an extra DD eqivalent of a Melee is the hate distribution. If you got a spell eating away chunks like a Melee does without assigning hate to you that's just ungodly strong, what would stop a Mage party with 1 Tank holding hate?

If you have it assign all the hate at once then BLMs can't cast anything till the mob is like half-dead. Then you are becoming a less effecient member. If the hate is assigned to you for each tick then hate control becomes a problem, since you have little control on what the DoT does and if you start gaining more hate then the tank. You become a big risk member, and how the game community is for FFXI they generally won't chance using big risk members to often so you'd be back in the same spot.

[Aeni]

Re: The BLM Problem

Unfortunately, unresisted skillchain damage on anything above a Tough is very rare.


Icemage

It's not rare. It works well if it's a guaranteed hit (Sneak Attack) The problem is, you won't see it with non-THFs subbing NIN (for example) or if a tank closes those level 3s.

[Icemage]

Re: The BLM Problem

It's not rare. It works well if it's a guaranteed hit (Sneak Attack) The problem is, you won't see it with non-THFs subbing NIN (for example) or if a tank closes those level 3s.

I'm not talking about the WS damage. I'm talking about the damage from the skillchain itself. Resists on that portion of the damage are quite common.

i.e.

Player uses Shark Bite.
Monster takes 1094 damage. <-- NOT THIS
Skillchain : Light! Monster takes 1094 damage. <-- THIS


Icemage

[Lmnop]

Re: The BLM Problem

so I just stumbled across this month-old, 6 page thread (am I gonna make it 7? o.o). I had all sorts of thoughts of things I wanted to say as a scoured every word of every page... yeah I forget.

First off: SC damage resists far too often. The reason drk/thf Spinning Slashes and THF main SCs still seem to do fine is because the most common SC is a half-resist. Let's say you're doing distortion. If you land SATA VB for 600 damage, completly unresisted dmg is 60%, or 360 dmg. However, you more frequently see 180 damage (partial resist). And you're like "K, 180 dmg's good -- the Double Thrust that opened it only did 200, afterall."

Something that doesn't really fix the BLM problem:
What if INT of closer affected resist rate? Similar to BLMs, but more lenient. As of now, the melees with the highest INT growths are DRK and THF (they have the same, I believe), and they are also the best suited for closing in most situations. Drks can ABS-INT before WS as they often do anyway for extra SS modifier and to reduce resist rate on SC and MB so that's coolio for them... And I feel that THF should simply get a trait that increases accuracy of Skillchains performed.

When I think about it... How do we know INT doesn't affect resist rates? Or what if Magic accuracy+ gear affected it? No one really tests. Doubtful, but it could be...

To BLMs: I honestly like all of Icemage's suggestions. Well thought-out. However, I don't think the "MB = defense reduction" would work. I like the concept of MB helping melee, but I don't think this would be the way to do it.

What Sabaron(sp? I'm not scrolling to look it up) was getting at with the TP ramping between 100% and 200%... 140% tp is currently a waste of 40% tp. Having a linear increase based on TP amounts is logical and slightly offsets the drop in overall number of WSs performed. I think it's retarded that it was ever designed with only 3 outcomes to begin with. And I think it's retarded that there's never a reason to WS at 2-300% in most situations.

I don't like the idea of upping a lot of mob's defense. What some of you are asking for is to make AU a bunch of crabs. No thanks I've been through that. Even crabs w/out defense buffs are irritating. Colibri are absolutely retarded. End of story. No one should have designed a monster that encourages parties to play cheaply (no food, it'll just get eaten) and teach them to WS RIGHT AWAY for fear of getting their tp whiped clean. The magic reflection thing doesn't always kick in, btw. It's an occasional thing. I exp'd once on these with a blm and a nin. I saw maybe 2-3 returned magics/battle. And more often than not, they were the elemental debuffs from the NIN.

It's been brought up the idea of changing how exp ramps for fighting IT+ mobs to encourage a good pld+blm party but honestly, those parties still suck for most melee. You want a situation where melee feel good, tanks feel good, blms feel good, and the support/heal jobs are actually working.

I really like the magic resistance idea of having non MB'd nukes increase the resist more. It wouldn't be much of an issue in exp, but for HNM, you want to discourage monotonous, gradual free-nuking. And I think that's a great way to do it.

I'll post more later if I remember this thread, but I'd like to point some things out:

Some of you are turning down Legal Fish's suggestions and input on the grounds that he's an asshole. It's like you're arguing with his {valid} points for the sake of arguing, just because you cannot stand to let a rude personality be right.

And even in BRP's youth, I do remember him once defending the tactics of someone else' taru drk/blm (not his own) against pretty much every other poster... Whether or not he was right, he showed integrity. It's easy to villify someone until you hate everything about them, when they barely did anything to cross you.