The BLM Problem

[Jei]

Re: The BLM Problem

On the subject of MB PTs:
I have never been in a ManaBurn PT that went over 7k XP in an hour (minus ring). This is mainly due to one issue: gimped/stupid BLMs. I have seen BLMs who only have dark staff, with only AF as acceptable gear (ie, fishing gear, SPIKE necklace, BONE earrings). I have also MB'd with BLMs who were consistently 4-6 seconds late on every spell, causing other BLMs to cast a second spell, wasting mana. This makes the whole PT go slower. I know I have excellent gear, and I don't hold other BLMs to the standards I have set for myself, but PLEASE have at least all the NQ staves. They aren't expensive. And we set up timing so that everyone goes at the SAME time. That includes you.
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I thought my gear is pretty gimp already...
I hardly see any gimp BLM wearing AF at 70+ personally except RMT. All BLM I know are pretty crazy about damage output.

[greydaze]

Re: The BLM Problem

I thought my gear is pretty gimp already...
I hardly see any gimp BLM wearing AF at 70+ personally except RMT. All BLM I know are pretty crazy about damage output.

Not all the BLM **I** see. It's really sad, to see a 73 BLM in AF with fishing gear and only dark staff. Not as bad as the RDM I PT'd with the other day without ANY staves, but still...

[tdh]

Re: The BLM Problem

I would suggest that these 3 classes need to remain staple SC closers (as that is what they are primarily known for and receive invites on this basis), but that perhaps there's a happy medium for non-DRK/THF/SAM closed SCs where they remain an attractive combination.

I would tend to agree with this. (Admittedly, partly due to the fact that I am a DRK.) I would rather see a closing WS for 1k+ than for 300~500dmg.

I'm not sure who made the comment about THF, DRK and SAM closers taking a party slot from DRGs, but I don't see that as an issue. Of the 3 closers I mentioned, DRG can open light for 2 of them.

Granted DRG could also close Light, but let's be honest. Which would you rather have? A DRG and WAR creating light, where Wheeling Thrust does 300~500dmg, and then Mistral Axe does 300~500. OR DRG or WAR opening for 300~500 and a THF or DRK closing for ~1k. Perhaps Wheeling Thrust needs some of the treatment that Spinning Slash once recieved. Who knows.

Now, now, you don't know who I am? You should... anyway, you speak an intelligent arguement. I do think you are not thinking in terms of BLM, which this thread is about however. Making SCs stronger without helping BLMs at all could actually be harmful in some cases, where MBs are no longer needed, not to say I wouldn't want a change to SC even without a BLM change.

You are correct. The changed I suggested does not directly involve BLMs. However I believe that indirectly it could effect them greatly.

If Skillchain effects were adjusted to do more damage for the parties that don't have a THF or /THF closer, I believe there would be more Skillchaining parties. (Vorpal Scythe > Rampage is a pretty good Skillchain, but Distortion effect almost always sucks horribly.) More Skillchaining parties would then invite BLMs more regularly, securing them a spot, increasing their invites. Which is the main problem in a number of BLM's eyes. They don't like waiting like MNKs, DRKs, WARs, and SAMs usually have to.

[M_X]

Re: The BLM Problem

Really, I think then real problem with the whole "TP-Burn Party" (and why did they change the name from "Well, can't find a blm, just grab another melee" parties?) is a matter convience. But, for the sake of arguement, let's look at the game pre and post ToAU.

Pre-

-SE has melee damage scaled down based on the lvl difference between the player and the mob.

- Pre-ToAU, you had blms who realized that they could get more exp by manaburning and left melees in the cold (not saying all blms did!).

-All Pre-ToAU exp areas, save KRT (which every melee save one does even MORE gimppy damage), are a pain to get to.

The above are the preexsisting problems with exping, least up in the 70s.

So, now ToAU comes out. It gives us the following:

-mobs that have natuarally low def

-exp camps that are easy/safe to get to.

-areas with exp bonus

Now, the first option really is the kicker. Melees just realized that they didn't NEED the damage support that blm had. Then, some extremists developed the whole concept of the fast killing TPburn party.

So now, blms are not being invited as much. And they're upset because they want to exp in the areas with the exp bonus and easy access (let's face it, we're all lazy).

Add a actuall OP warp NPC in sky or in "that zone with the mobs that use Doom" (name escapes me at the momment), and I bet there would be less complaining.

Oh, and btw

Make failed skillchain attempts (i.e. another WS that occurs during the skillchain window) reduce the damage of the un-chained weaponskill.
This will nerf TP-burn slightly since players will have to coordinate their efforts so that they either complete a skillchain or allow enough time between weaponskills to avoid making one.

Beside my opinion that this is just wrong (what can i say, I'm a drk/war and spamm Guillotine), I don't think this would work since certain WS wont chain. I woked hard to get where I am. Why should I be forced to use Slice because my Guillotine damage will be gimped?

[Icemage]

Re: The BLM Problem

Beside my opinion that this is just wrong (what can i say, I'm a drk/war and spamm Guillotine), I don't think this would work since certain WS wont chain. I woked hard to get where I am. Why should I be forced to use Slice because my Guillotine damage will be gimped?

You can't wait 5 more seconds to use Guillotine?


Icemage

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

gimped/stupid BLMs.

Or very good ones. The job itself is quite limited. Something like a boost to SC damage and getting MP back on MBs could fix in a second.

[x1ang]

Re: The BLM Problem

# Make Magic Bursts temporarily reduce monster defense, the duration of which is linked to the amount of damage done by the strongest magic burst.
This gives melees a reason to invite BLMs into TP-burn, since they can increase the killing speed of the party even only casting one spell per fight.
#Make failed skillchain attempts (i.e. another WS that occurs during the skillchain window) reduce the damage of the un-chained weaponskill.
This will nerf TP-burn slightly since players will have to coordinate their efforts so that they either complete a skillchain or allow enough time between weaponskills to avoid making one.

Only problem with this is that with ToAU and all the various fast-xp zones out, fights rarely last long enough where replacing one of the WARs with a BLM would help. With the typical TP-burn PT out, killing speed is basically fast enough where the BRD is constantly out pulling/queueing mobs. There is also the reliance on MP and with roaming PTs (which is already seen with the preference of RDMs over WHMs as healers). However, I can see the 2nd point slowing the process down, but with a full SC done on a VT mob, would a MB really make much of a difference?

[tdh]

Re: The BLM Problem

I must say I like the idea of MP back on Magic Bursts, but it would probably become too over powering. Everybody and their mother would MB if they could. Unless it was some sort of job trait for BLMs, even though us RDMs would love something like this.

But I would love to have more lower level BLMs actually MB'n. (I can't even express how many parties I've been in as SAM where the BLMs didn't even seem to try and MB. Or how many times as BLM, we'd have a SAM in the group and they wouldn't set up a Skillchain for me blow up.)

Only problem with this is that with ToAU and all the various fast-xp zones out, fights rarely last long enough where replacing one of the WARs with a BLM would help. With the typical TP-burn PT out, killing speed is basically fast enough where the BRD is constantly out pulling/queueing mobs. There is also the reliance on MP and with roaming PTs (which is already seen with the preference of RDMs over WHMs as healers). However, I can see the 2nd point slowing the process down, but with a full SC done on a VT mob, would a MB really make much of a difference?

I believe the MB does make a considerable difference.

When my static and I first moved to the ToAU areas, all the Lesser Colibri were IT to us. As DRK my damage was amped up a bit, and their low Evasion helped my Acc at Lv.55. Our goal was to start to ever mob with the skillchain, and have 90~100%TP by the end of the fight. Well it worked amazingly until Lv.57~58 when the Skillchain and MB would take about 85% of the mob's HP, and it died before the THF or I could build 90%+ TP.

Before ToAU, when everybody in the 60's were in the Bay and finally hit Lv.3 Skillchains, MB made quite a bit of difference. RDM and BLM MBs adding up to 1500dmg, later on BLMs could land 1500dmg+ on MB alone. I'd say that's very helpful against VT~IT+ mobs.

[Macht]

Re: The BLM Problem

The idea change to TP and damage output is like stating it should be on a single timer, like the SMNs Blood Pacts. Should be pretty dead obvious how much of an annoyance that it, all you'll do is start breaking the SC and MB structure that way. If you really want to encourage it should go the opposite direction and be providing bonuses.

Simple and quick concept that could probably encourage SC timing is to have the BLMs spells on MB do a sort of splash effect for some temporary bonuses to the party. Perhaps a successful Earth based MB would splash a 1 hit absorber like stoneskin to the party.

So you could end up doing:

Earth = 1 hit damage null (1 min. timer)
Water = prevent 1 sleep spell (1 min. timer)
Wind = 30% Haste (1 min. timer)
Fire = +20% attack/rng. att. (30 sec. - 1 min. timer)
Thunder = 10% Critical Bonus (1 min. timer)
Ice = prevent 1 stun (1 min. timer)
Light = 5% HP Cure
Dark = prevent 1 curse/gravity (1 min. timer)

This should encourage more SC and MB use because now it's not only just dealing damage but giving strategic abilities. Just make as a trait for BLMs

[Aeni]

Re: The BLM Problem

2) Do you know how TP burns work?

Basically, a TP Burn is blowing TP. That's why it's called a "TP Burn" party. If you're talking about something else entirely, then it is not "TP Burn."

TP Burn do not require skillchains. Not because the skillchain effects get resisted. I'm not sure what level you are or what is your highest level job, but I'm guessing you have not seen too many THF/DRK/SAM SATA for 1.5K~2.5K in damage when combined with the SC effect. If you tell me that this is not better than spamming wheeling thrust, I'll probably slam you on the side of your head with a metal bat.

TP Burn just spam WSs. A WAR/NIN with full haste gear and multiple strike weapons could probably put out 2 WSs a minute. This is a far cry from what you see in RoZ where it takes anyone at least a minute to generate enough TP for a WS. And we're not just talking about WARs here either. MNKs and SAMs are TP whores and that's a fact.

Having a BLM means you need to SC. This means either (a) waiting for the slowest member to get TP and that member might not be an uber geared MNK or SAM or (b) waiting for BLM to have mana to MB with.

Remvoe BLM from this and you don't have any restriction to spamming your TP.

I've been in "TP Burn" as low as in Dunes. No SC'ing, no MB.

[Sabaron]

Re: The BLM Problem

I think one of the biggest problems is not that people don't want to SC, it's that they don't know what to do. I play BLM as a subjob and end up setting up the SC with my oh-so-convenient sc chart combined with a mob resistance chart. I find that most pts are willing to do SC's even if only for the fact that it makes them look more uber-1337 than the party 10 feet down the passage. But I've also been in pts where the melees won't change the chain to reflect the weakness because it involves using what they consider "lesser" WS's or b/c they don't want the hassle of changing macros, etc. The fact that this makes it impossible for me to even determine efficacy of the alternate chain through a parser makes me utterly unable to provide concrete evidence that such a thing might be better than what they're currently doing. For instance, a pair of NIN's ends up doing Retsu->To (Detonation [Wind]) instead of Rin->Retsu (Distortion [Water/Ice]) because they don't like Rin vs. Flies (which are weak vs. Ice) for a Blizzard MB... I couldn't even check to see if it might be better... This particular event was as RDM--I was bursting since we didn't have a BLM, but not doing general nukes.

[x1ang]

Re: The BLM Problem

Icemage was referring the issues of BLMs in HNM situations and 70ish+ XP PTs, where TP/melee burn PTs neglect the need of a BLM (actually, where BLM becomes a "slowing down" factor). In your situation, Sabaron, it's not so much of a issue due to game mechanics, but to the attitude of people in PTs (nonetheless, BLMs function great at lower level XP PTs where TP/melee burn are less realistic).

[Sabaron]

Re: The BLM Problem

I had already commented on that side, in detail, as per issues with a certain other poster and was simply adding on in comment to some of the remarks made regarding other types of PTs. My opinion on the rest of the thread topic remains the same:

Recalibration of WS/SC/MB interactions.

[Aeni]

Re: The BLM Problem

Icemage was referring the issues of BLMs in HNM situations and 70ish+ XP PTs, where TP/melee burn PTs neglect the need of a BLM (actually, where BLM becomes a "slowing down" factor).

I don't know, but from what I've always understood, many HNMs require a BLM. So I don't think this is an issue. I think the problem lies with players not using skillchains which would make a BLM useful. However, forcing players to skillchain won't change anything either. There's got to be a real need to have BLMs in the first place. Skillchains is just one fact, a big one maybe, but not the only reason. BLM downtime breaks chances for chain #200.

Essentially, just changing ToAU mobs to have the same defense as an Apocalyptic Weapon in Sky and maybe adjusting respawn rate so that it's not THAT FAST might make a difference. All areas where 70s use to exp are very empty aside from a few players w/o ToAU installed. Changing the ToAU areas will not affect the exp situation. All it will do is just spread out players more.

Also, change signet in the older areas to give similar exp bonuses.

[Macht]

Re: The BLM Problem

I had already commented on that side, in detail, as per issues with a certain other poster and was simply adding on in comment to some of the remarks made regarding other types of PTs. My opinion on the rest of the thread topic remains the same:
Recalibration of WS/SC/MB interactions.

One thing about the WS/SC/MB thing you have to be cautious of though, is at one point Melee's were very irritated that they had to rely on Mages for damage. BLMs ended up gaining this golden pedastel because the logic was if you want great damage you need to MB. That is why I'm not very keen on changing the damage formula just to make it were the BLM does result it in being a tremendous amount better. It just creates to much problems, even though it seems logically sound to do human arrogance will complete F*** that up.

You'll get BLMs running around again thinking they are better then everyone else, and getting those smug remarks from them that when the chance comes you'll have a bad fall out between mages and melee.

Why a more non-centralized benefits is better, ones that won't particulary help the BLMs. Basically sure the BLM contributes good damage but his contribution helps the melee also perform better afterwards. To sum up it's basically Melee supports Mage to do good damage in turn ends up supporting Melee with helpful effects that make them even better. The "I scratch your back and you scratch mine type of approach".