The BLM Problem

[Ziero]

Re: The BLM Problem

The only things that ever prevented TP burn pts before would have to be a lack of mobs. I've had pts as low as qufim where it was 4 melee and 2 mages where we'd constantly fight T-VT mobs in a near, no-down time chain. No SC or MB, just WS at 100, going all out and move to the next mob asap. And as stated before, the only thing holding us back was a lack of mobs. We'd get chain 4-5, spend a few seconds looking for a new mob, and by the time we got one the chain was lost. These pts made easy 8-10k an hour, in Qufim, Altep, GC, CN, ect, so the TP burn pts aren't just in higher lvls.

Conversely I had a Blmx3, Whm, War, Nin pt in qufim that did something similar using Blm dmg. Again, no SC or MB, but lots of killing. The only real difference was we went after higher mobs, but the results were rather similar EXP wise. And if I recall correctly, it was mana-burns that were the 'best' kind of pt before ToAU came out, as they were able to rake in a near constant chain of EXP.

Long story short, no matter what 'fixes' are made to the pt system, people will find ways to 'abuse' it. There will always be 'top tier' pt members and 'bottom rung' jobs, no matter what gets done. And to put it bluntly, many people will always try to avoid a SC and MB because it actually requires them to think to accomplish it. Where as 'burn' pts require much less effort. In the end, people are going to choose the easier route. Is it right? not to many who care, but there's not much that can be done.

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

Am I the only one who find planning a SC(looking at a chart you found online) and repeating it a thousand times not very "strategic"? I think the only reasons people don't do SCs is because it does less damage overall.

[Gentoo]

Re: The BLM Problem

Am I the only one who find planning a SC(looking at a chart you found online) and repeating it a thousand times not very "strategic"?

Yeah pretty sure you are the only one. Strategy can be considered a plan, or series of maneuvers for obtaining a specific goal or result.

Using a planned combination of multiple tactics (Weapon Skills) to create a skill chain and magic burst is pretty much a classic definition of being strategic.

[Vyuru]

Re: The BLM Problem

Jesus christ... I'm just going to stop there. I don't think this is our first encounter, but just...stop talking please. You are hurting the arguement of anyone with the same opinion.

Oh, do please elaborate, if you aren't going to use the spells from your subjob, then the mp given and the job's traits and ablitities are more important. /smn gives more mp than /whm and /rdm gives more important traits than /whm, take your pick.

Also if you are going to make insane claims like Conserve MP bringing Freeze to 13 MP three times, you need some proof

Sorry, no pictures for you, but the first time was at level 54 in kuftal tunnel vs crabs.

What you are saying is "Why should people be allowed to kill monsters in mixed groups, when they can do it better in burn parties?".

Ah, no, what I am saying is "Why should we make it so that SC are unresisted on normal exp mobs?"

PS. Juices and Refresh do not stack(and likewise, you can't wear two cloaks at one time, and two refreshers for one party is usually too much, unless it is a TP burn), and juices are rarely used by non-crafters. Please put some (realistic) thought in this, or you are just spamming in spaces between good replies.

Did I ever claim they did? I listed them as all ways to get refresh as anyone who is halfway literate would have realised. In this day and age who ISN'T a non crafter? If I can get my cooking to level 34 in 3-4 afternoons of crafting, spending an hour or two max each afternoon, yeah, I darn well think leveling cooking is well within the realm of reality, and it is one of the easiest crafts to level.

Please put some (realistic) trolling in your replies.

[Maju]

Re: The BLM Problem

BLM can't keep up with TP burns and not even with exceptionally fast PLD parties. More often than not I would (as PLD) outparse the few BLMs that I ever found in my parties at L70+. Why? Because the bard pulls two mobs at a time and makes sure there is always at least one mob sleeping next to the party. The BLM runs out of steam very quickly while melees can keep going forever. PLDs also run out of steam, but they, or at least I did, usually last longer than the BLMs.

[Sabaron]

Re: The BLM Problem

Long story short, no matter what 'fixes' are made to the pt system, people will find ways to 'abuse' it. There will always be 'top tier' pt members and 'bottom rung' jobs, no matter what gets done. And to put it bluntly, many people will always try to avoid a SC and MB because it actually requires them to think to accomplish it. Where as 'burn' pts require much less effort. In the end, people are going to choose the easier route. Is it right? not to many who care, but there's not much that can be done.

I would tend to agree. The problem from a developers standpoint, however, is encouraging people not to do that and to use more varied techniques. From a business perspective, however, one really doesn't care what strategy people use as long as they remain happy and satisfied that you appear to be doing everything you can to help them in their various plights and to be fair. Thusly, small adjustments periodically give the illusion that you're actually doing something when in reality most of what you fix breaks something else in the process.

There's no such thing as a perfectly balanced game, but I think the balance is off when the only PTs you can get in Aht Urghan are TP Burn. Now, obviously, SE could add an area that's Manaburn friendly, but that doesn't "integrate" the players. Their goal appears to be your generalized party consisting of about 50% melee and 50% magic. I've never fought Colibri, but do they have some sort of a "Wall" ability wherein magic is reflected onto the caster? Perhaps old skool "Wall" battles would be an interesting addition... of course that breaks things such as existing goblin spellcasters and the like who don't have wall... Maybe AoE breaks a wall like it breaks Utsusemi or it only reflects one spell/has a terribly short duration (1/2 Haste or shorter) ? I don't know.

As far as this thread is concerned, I'm sticking with my recalibration of WS/SC/MB based on statistical analysis of their efficacy.

As for LegalFish, I still don't think you understand my perspective and the primary reason I use what one may consider inconcise posts, is because I want someone who is capable of reasonable thought to understand me clearly and not have any doubt as to exactly what I mean. Thus the second post is a clarification provided for your benefit to my first post which you didn't seem to grasp (and still do not). You seem to be looking at something specific while I am eluding to more generalistic analysis with resources that are only available to those who actually made the game.

The fact that you seem to need to denegrate other posters such as OMGWTFBBQKitten and Vyuru even though they had valid perspectives on the issue at hand seems to indicate that you have ego problems and may need to feel superior to others. I suggest professional assistance with your inherent anger. Perhaps there's a pill or something...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The BLM Problem

Sorry, I don't I can handle hearing your comments, so let's pretend you never posted. It's probably either unrelated, too obvious, or something ignorant. No reply here to that.

Don't worry, I'm sure I can all handle your posts in kind from here on out.

BLM can't keep up with TP burns and not even with exceptionally fast PLD parties. More often than not I would (as PLD) outparse the few BLMs that I ever found in my parties at L70+. Why? Because the bard pulls two mobs at a time and makes sure there is always at least one mob sleeping next to the party. The BLM runs out of steam very quickly while melees can keep going forever. PLDs also run out of steam, but they, or at least I did, usually last longer than the BLMs.

BRD always makes sure, eh? What about buffs? I've actually heard a bit of complaining from mages and melee alike that BRDs are no longer doing in TP burn what BRDs are known for - buffs. all because they're too busy with Utsusemi, pulling and sleeping to do so. I know if I'm holding one/two mobs or pulling, buffing is going to be a rather hard thing to do, /WHM or /NIN.

I could easily do 10k+ EXP per hour as BRD/WHM pre-ToA and keep four buffs going at all times while pulling and sleeping the next mob, buff and pull again - roaming PT or not. I didn't have to sleep more than one, though sometimes it happend. But never enough to warrant /NIN.

[tdh]

Re: The BLM Problem

Did we some how get another BRP?

I completely agree that Skillchain effects need to be adjusted, but making them so they can't be resisted isn't the right step. We're to the point that the only way to actually have decent Skillchain effects requires THF main or sub job.

THF closes Distortion on a Robber Crab for 500dmg, and then you see a 100 Distortion despite the mob being weak to Ice. Next time Distortion does 300dmg, and everybody's happy. Another party where a WAR closes Distortion with Rampage for 400dmg, and a 100dmg Distortion would be a God send.

Perhaps the player base needs to be given control of the effect resists. Something can be done by the Skillchain partners to help prevent the resists, much like a RDM, BRD, or BLM have to adjust the effect their spells. Another option is making sure that Skillchains do a percentage of the damage from the closing WS, or a percentage of combined WS. 15% minimum for Lv1, 25% for Lv.2, 35~40% for Lv.3. Leave the "caps" for them as they are. (I mean who's ever seen a Lv.2 Skillchain Mirror closing WS damage?) This would make Skillchains a little more attractive. As things are right now, you either have a DRK, THF or SAM closer it from Lv.65+, or just no Skillchain at all.

This way, Skillchain effects might do more damage, and we'll see a lot less Distortions for under 100dmg, or a Light Skillchain that does 150dmg. Just one of many possible options.

[Sabaron]

Re: The BLM Problem

Did we some how get another BRP?

What's a BRP?

As things are right now, you either have a DRK, THF or SAM closer it from Lv.65+, or just no Skillchain at all.

This way, Skillchain effects might do more damage, and we'll see a lot less Distortions for under 100dmg, or a Light Skillchain that does 150dmg. Just one of many possible options.

I would suggest that these 3 classes need to remain staple SC closers (as that is what they are primarily known for and receive invites on this basis), but that perhaps there's a happy medium for non-DRK/THF/SAM closed SCs where they remain an attractive combination.

[Mhurron]

Re: The BLM Problem

What's a BRP?

Blood Red Poet, aka a troll.

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

Blood Red Poet, aka a troll.

So easy to be called a troll when people are just asking to be 'trolled'. BLM subbing SMN? Oh my...

As for LegalFish, I still don't think you understand my perspective and the primary reason I use what one may consider inconcise posts, is because I want someone who is capable of reasonable thought to understand me clearly and not have any doubt as to exactly what I mean. Thus the second post is a clarification provided for your benefit to my first post which you didn't seem to grasp (and still do not). You seem to be looking at something specific while I am eluding to more generalistic analysis with resources that are only available to those who actually made the game.

Er, if that is what you want to call it. You seem to be dancing around the topic with long sentences and such. The problem with SCs is that they have horrible, horrible accuracy. The problem with BLMs in standard parties is that they have no stamina. Why even bother mentioning SCs in this thread(about BLMs mind you) if it doesn't do much to assist the BLM directly. If I'm not understanding you, then please tell me what I didn't get.

The fact that you seem to need to denegrate other posters such as OMGWTFBBQKitten and Vyuru even though they had valid perspectives on the issue at hand seems to indicate that you have ego problems and may need to feel superior to others. I suggest professional assistance with your inherent anger. Perhaps there's a pill or something...

The posters do it themselves, I just like pointing it out. If someone make a thread, right now, about this complete moron they met in Valkurm Dunes, there would be some laughs and some advice like "avoid that guy". Well, I'm doing that right now, but on the "forums". The kind of arguements like "Well, if want the game to be easy(by easy, then mean using your mind instead of grinding) go play WoW, but I wouldn't know", or "Well since SE made it in the game, its okay, but I wouldn't now", or "I get all my info on the matter from someone who was in my static party, btw he was able to make miracles happen, but I wouldn't know, and I can't prove it" that really turns me off, just like a noob yelling at someone for a raise on those sandy videogame beaches. You can say "Hey, I play this game too, I know what I'm talking about" all you want, but thats the same of someone saying "Hey, I can be a doctor, I've been in a hospital once". About the pill, when I take anything said by me or someone else on the internet seriously, I'll give you a call.

I would suggest that these 3 classes need to remain staple SC closers

Yes, we wouldn't want DRGs taking their invites now would we?

Yeah pretty sure you are the only one. Strategy can be considered a plan, or series of maneuvers for obtaining a specific goal or result.

You know Tic-Tac-Toe is a game of strategy too. Does it make it a "very strategic game"? The excuse people are not doing SCs because it takes less brain power than just using WSes alone is absurd. The different is the same between having to count 2 dots to having to counter 3 dots. A complete idiot who could never win a game of Go, Chess, Connect4, or Checkers could do it. I not saying its a bad thing, but it is far from an excuse. It seems someone is trying to put down people who don't use it, as if people who do it are greater beings of thought(talk about feeding the ego).

tdh

Now, now, you don't know who I am? You should... anyway, you speak an intelligent arguement. I do think you are not thinking in terms of BLM, which this thread is about however. Making SCs stronger without helping BLMs at all could actually be harmful in some cases, where MBs are no longer needed, not to say I wouldn't want a change to SC even without a BLM change.

Ah, no, what I am saying is "Why should we make it so that SC are unresisted on normal exp mobs?"

Last time I'm going to speak to your directly, at least in this thread.

Why you ask? So people would use them, that's why. I can't break it down any further. Read it a few times if needed.

Posters with opinions of great value, please do not stoop to making posts about me being a troll. You are free to insult the value of my arguement all you want as long as you have one yourself.

Now, SE wants BLMs to be strong in standard parties. Their weakness is that they lack endurance. This is the situation, try not to dance around it.

[Vyuru]

Re: The BLM Problem

I've never fought Colibri, but do they have some sort of a "Wall" ability wherein magic is reflected onto the caster?

They basically cast back any and all magic on randomly targeted party members. I've seen it work for spells, ninjutsu, and songs. It takes them about... 2-4 seconds to cast a spell on you regardless of how long it took you to do it. And it seems random, because I've been hit by ninjutsu and a few enfeebles while fighting them. Only the Colibri do this, Lesser Colibri do not.

BRD always makes sure, eh? What about buffs? I've actually heard a bit of complaining from mages and melee alike that BRDs are no longer doing in TP burn what BRDs are known for - buffs.

Actually, I'm ready to start complaining to bards now. I recently took up bard as a sub for light soloing/farming easy prey-even matches. I was looking at what songs I needed, and I had no idea they had a dex+ song, str+, int+, and so on. That seems pointless to not be giving int+ to blm, dex+ to thfs, and maybe mnd to either whm or rdm (helps with some enfeebles) I prefer to have the acc+ and haste songs on me as well, i don't like having acc+ and att+, though it is nice, I can get att+ from eating att+food since I don't need to eat acc food with acc+songs, I can't reasonably get haste from gear.

I would suggest that these 3 classes need to remain staple SC closers

Agreed, I can open a light SC with them rather nicely, i dislike closing SC though, it takes too much optimizing and gear swaps and a thf sub to get a powerful closing hit with Wheeling Thrust, so IMO why bother when I can just invite a thf to close light with?

but that perhaps there's a happy medium for non-DRK/THF/SAM closed SCs where they remain an attractive combination.

I don't have my SC chart with me, but isn't there kinda one already? They can close other skillchains, but they are just not what most people would call the "best" SC. I don't know off the top of my head, but for instance I don't think my lances SC well with one handed axes, but I do think they SC well with Gaxes. Not 100% sure on it though. I think that this is what the developers had in mind when they designed the game, you can still make SCs, just not as powerful closers on the popular SCs.

I do think that the only reason distortion is so popular now is because of SATA+Viper Bite closing the SC, big damaging WS, big damaging SC, several elements to MB with. Fusion would probably work just as well against most of the mobs you fight, (bugs, plants, some flying bug stuff), but who has a really damaging closing WS on fusion?

To be honest I'm a little surprised that SC don't change to accomodate the blm's most powerful spell. Blm just got Stone II? A dark/earth SC might be better than whatever SC you currently have going, depends on mob weakness and closing WS damage though.

And I really do think there is more to the SC damage than just resist rate, I party with alot of thiefs, and the SC damage is almost always their full damage, or maybe 2/3 of their closing damage. Other jobs seem to be kinda all over the place, though for the most part jobs with one hit WS and a thf sub will tend to have a high SC damage rate it seems. Like Drk/thf with a Gsword or something similar.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The BLM Problem

Actually, I'm ready to start complaining to bards now. I recently took up bard as a sub for light soloing/farming easy prey-even matches. I was looking at what songs I needed, and I had no idea they had a dex+ song, str+, int+, and so on. That seems pointless to not be giving int+ to blm, dex+ to thfs, and maybe mnd to either whm or rdm (helps with some enfeebles) I prefer to have the acc+ and haste songs on me as well, i don't like having acc+ and att+, though it is nice, I can get att+ from eating att+food since I don't need to eat acc food with acc+songs, I can't reasonably get haste from gear.

You may prefer to eat attack food, but compared to the attack bonuses Minuets give, what you get from food is an absolute joke and a waste of gil. Sushi is the way to go for accuracy, only in rare instances would I ever use Madrigal at high level. And I play COR no different in that regard, accuracy buffs only go so far and melees should have the gear and food to cover that.

The Etudes you're referring to are best used in camps where everyone is going to get hit with AOE buffs, which shouldn't happen at higher levels. The second tier of etudes, while impressive, dimish in potency as the duration effect continues - all other BRD buffs don't degrade like 2nd tier Etudes do. The most I really ever use the is if we have a second BRD in PT and, really, there's nothing better to put on the mages that MND and INT at that point. Also do MND etudes for the MNK pumping up a Chi Blast sometimes, but its back to Minuet for MNK right after.

Back on the main topic. I did a good ol' SC/MB PT in the ToA zones as BRD tonight, complete with BLM. Hadn't done BRD merits in a good long while. To my surprise, my PT was not content with total weakness of Jnuns and Imps. Seriously, Imps went down in like ten seconds, that's just pathetic.

We switched up to Halvung and camped in the ramparts. Very nice camp and the mobs there were much more difficult ... which made the fast repops a little more thrilling than pulling another wImp.

If the weakness of other mobs wasn't so pathetic and repop so fast, people wouldn't exploit it so heavily and BLM definately wouldn't be hurt so much.

I should also note that we actually started from Dvucca staging point. While there are imps and Jnun to wail on, qutrub mobs are really the only formidable mobs there and apparently they're not burn material as they're rather resistant to sleep and lullaby.

So not everything in ToA is broken, there are just some mobs that need to be a lot stronger in DEF and HP than they are now. This would help bring skillchains and MB back into the picture.

[greydaze]

Re: The BLM Problem

BLM can't keep up with TP burns and not even with exceptionally fast PLD parties. More often than not I would (as PLD) outparse the few BLMs that I ever found in my parties at L70+. Why? Because the bard pulls two mobs at a time and makes sure there is always at least one mob sleeping next to the party. The BLM runs out of steam very quickly while melees can keep going forever. PLDs also run out of steam, but they, or at least I did, usually last longer than the BLMs.

I am a 75 BLM. I played my ENTIRE BLM career after ToAU came out.

I am what I have been told is "old-school BLM." What this means is I cast DoT spells (ie, Poison II, Elemental Enfeebles, Bio II if needed), MB, and maybe 1 or 2 lower level nukes to finish off a mob, sitting when I'm not busy with other things. And I do not run out of steam, even in semi-burn PTs. Do you know how I do it? In semi-burns, I am bored to death, but I use 1-2 nukes at 50% or less life to KO the mob, not bothering with DoT because the mobs just die way too fast. I rest until it's time to start nuking. I've even been known to pull when there's no BRD in the PT (once).

Did I feel any heat around 65 from TP burns? Yes. Yes, I did. But by this time, I had a good reputation with people at my level and still got invites, even to semi-burns. Maybe it's harder on other servers, but I would get PTs with the same people day after day, as a BLM, in TaOU zones. I would LOVE it if SE lowered the Imp resistance to dark magic a bit, but I was invited to Imp PTs because I'm a BLM; I could kill off imps when the melees were Amnesia'd.

My best advice to BLMs everywhere? Do what I did; Make one friend in every PT you're in. Choose the person you see stand out, and send them a tell or two. Talk about how the PT's going. Talk about that WAR who keeps missing the SC or the BRD who's doing a good job pulling or how much you hate Abrasive Tantra. Talk about SOMETHING. Trust me, it is worth it to make friends in this game. They will remember your name, and the next time they see, "WAR X lfg, DRG Y lfg, oh wait! There's Kaithran!" You'll get an invite. Keep in touch. Congratulate them on a new level when you see them LFG. Look them up just to see how they're doing. It pays off in big ways.

My take on the situation?

1) Astral Candescence. This has made VT mobs a more viable option. In many PTs, we decided to burn b/c the melee wouldn't keep their SCs to 40%+ of the mob's life. Yes, it's fun to see your SC kill the mob, but everything goes faster when I'm MBing for 1500 on top of your 2000 for WS+SC. The mobs just don't have enough HP to make magic bursting an option. The mobs are too squishy: They make TP burns thrive.

Up the defence a little bit on certain mobs in the ToAU zones. Increase HP on some of the lower-HP mobs.

2) Collibris. These just suck. Great for TP burns, but they make BLMs into SMNs; HEALING MAGIC ONRY! You can't bio, you can't nuke, you can't even put them to sleep.

Make the reflect effect NOT 100%. Make it a TP-based move. Make it so that WSs can be reflected, too. Change collibris so that they aren't the TP-burn must-have that they are now. Make BLM a viable addition to groups of adventurers in ToAU at this level range.

3) Skillchain VS. Solo WeaponSkills. The main reason, as I see it from a BLM perspective, for no SC on TaOU mobs? WSs just do too much DMG to the mobs to make SCs a viable option. By the time two WSs go off, the mob doesn't have enough life to warrant a Tier 4 spell. Why save your TP when you can do 1000+ damage RIGHT NOW?

Up the defense on certain mobs in the ToAU zones. Increase HP on some of the lower HP mobs.


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On the subject of MB PTs:

I have never been in a ManaBurn PT that went over 7k XP in an hour (minus ring). This is mainly due to one issue: gimped/stupid BLMs. I have seen BLMs who only have dark staff, with only AF as acceptable gear (ie, fishing gear, SPIKE necklace, BONE earrings). I have also MB'd with BLMs who were consistently 4-6 seconds late on every spell, causing other BLMs to cast a second spell, wasting mana. This makes the whole PT go slower. I know I have excellent gear, and I don't hold other BLMs to the standards I have set for myself, but PLEASE have at least all the NQ staves. They aren't expensive. And we set up timing so that everyone goes at the SAME time. That includes you.

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Legal Fish:

I find omgwtfbbqkitten to be a polite and well-informed member of these forums. There is no reason to instigate negativity in this thread, so please, if you can't play nice, gtfo. ;3

[Mog]

Re: The BLM Problem

Legal fish = BRP in case you guys can't tell. (He'll never go away)

And amazingly, I've been getting party invites lately, and not just manaburn parties. Guess it picks up from 70-75.