The BLM Problem

[Icemage]

Re: The BLM Problem

I think it would be a good thing to increase the benefit of actually coordinating a skillchain and magic burst. I don't think there's any arguement that renkei isn't a good play mechanic, but they're so rare to see nowadays. It seems to be the consensus that the additional damage from the skillchain effect is less than the damage that is lost by not having everyon fire off their WS at 100%, that is if one person gets to 150 tp by the time their partner gets to 100 tp, they would have been better off damage-wise to use their tp on 5 WS instead of 4 WS and 2 SC effects, since the SC effect will on average do less than half the damage of a WS, due to factors like resistance, misses, lag, and interrupting effects like sleep, stun, and amnesia. It's just so much easier to spam WS as soon as you get TP, and the results range from insignificantly worse to significantly better.

Exactly. This is what I was talking about when I said the game mechanics were broken horribly by ToAU - the whole skillchaining system has been all but thrown away.

---

Previously, the "best" way to earn XP was to go after Incredibly Tough opponents. There wasn't any value in going after Very Tough enemies because you couldn't get enough spawns within range to make it worthwhile. Only in a few cases was this even possible, which is how roaming merit parties were created in the first place, originally in places like Shrine of Ru'Avitau and Kuftal Tunnel, which were the only zones that had monsters of the appropriate levels and quantities. Monk-burn King Ranperre's Tomb parties followed this general trend as well, substituting IT+ skeletons due to the damage bonus that monks receive against them, which effectively made them about equal to a Very Tough instead of borderline Incredibly Tough.

Going after Incredibly Tough enemies had its drawbacks, though. Melees had very poor accuracy against enemies with such a huge level gap, while black magic was guaranteed to land with at least a reasonable chance of accuracy, greatly assisted by Magic Bursts, which is why the original XP party dynamics included 2 melees and a nuker for damage.

Right around the release of ToAU, everything changed.

Many monsters in ToAU have few HP, low Evasion and low Defense for their respective levels, which was supposedly counterbalanced by having slightly stronger special attacks, but in practice the stronger specials aren't much of an issue because they have such a tiny time window to use those attacks. In addition, their spawn times are about three times faster than in other zones.

Add to this the improved accuracy that melees now enjoy, not only from improved gear, but from merit points and the ever-present use of sushi, and we now have a situation where the overall damage from BLMs over time is eclipsed by even average melees, as long as those melees receive a continual stream of enemies to rain destruction upon.

The whole premise for going after IT+ enemies is now gone, and the unfortunate victim of this change is that skillchains are now virtually non-existent in high level XP/merit parties. Sure, you can still go after IT+ enemies... but why? You can infinitely chain weaker T/VTs instead and make better XP, plus the 15% bonus for Sanction when the Candescence is active in the hands of players so your T/VT's are now treated as if they were VT/IT once you pass chain #4 (and with a good party, you can chain indefinitely) as far as XP earned per kill, while you're killing them in a fraction of the time.

Without a need to go after IT enemies, skillchains become meaningless because you can deal plenty of damage to T/VT's without any skillchains since you're not missing constantly, and without skillchains, the need for magic bursts goes away. With no need for magic bursts, the role of BLM in standard XP parties has completely vanished once ToAU zones are taken into account.

If this isn't broken game mechanics, I don't know what is.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The BLM Problem

Without a need to go after IT enemies, skillchains become meaningless because you can deal plenty of damage to T/VT's without any skillchains since you're not missing constantly, and without skillchains, the need for magic bursts goes away. With no need for magic bursts, the role of BLM in standard XP parties has completely vanished once ToAU zones are taken into account.

If this isn't broken game mechanics, I don't know what is.


Icemage

Well just as a counterpoint, like I said earlier and you conceded above, RoZ and CoP favored mages. Was this a good thing, though? This left a lot of the melee player base LFG and unhappy. Fighting IT++ left players scrambling to find the easiest kind of IT++ mob they could... which mostly ended up being crabs from 53 onward.

A lot of melees got shafted because their damage just didn't look good on such mobs. Prices were high on accuracy gear because such gear was absolutely needed.

Fast forward to now and accuracy gear is much easier to get. Melee jobs can actually get EXP these days since the mobs don't require mages so harshly and people no longer have to dream about being a 75 THF or DRG.

SE could roll back a little on the EXP bonus given by sanction, though as a COR I wouldn't like that since people would end up demanding COR Roll more often as opposed to a useful buff. If they took away Sanction's EXP bonus, lots of players lose incentive to go to ToA areas to EXP.

And it would be hard to pry players out of ToA zones, I myself benefit greatly as RNG and COR to EXP there, Imperial Standing gets me out of a good bit of farming and I can turn that IS into ammo or tools by selling my imperial currency. It just can't be denied that economy is much more favorable now, stuff is cheaper.

Hate to say it, but with people whipped on TP burns, BLMs may have to do what I was often told to do as a melee. It made me groan. "Make your own PTs." Easier said than done, but its really the only thing that can be done right now.

[Icemage]

Re: The BLM Problem

I don't begrudge the parties that melees are getting - I think it's long past time when it was easier to level as a melee, considering that they consitute about 50% of the available job selections (and were abnormally represented by the playerbase, since a lot of players like to see the big damage numbers).

That being said, I'm disturbed by the fact that there is virtually no skillchaining going on at higher levels. Surely there is a happy medium somewhere in between where nukers aren't complete pariahs?


Icemage

[Rambus]

Re: The BLM Problem

Icemage said everything i wanted to say, i wrote SE though POL in the Suggestion
box aboutv possable more damage on SC and MBs since the AM II's hardly made an impact

[Vyuru]

Re: The BLM Problem

Well, I don't really know how blm are doing party wise, so I won't really comment on that, I will say that I think they are just fine in parties and the blm that I have invited to my semi TP burn parties do just fine. But I also don't see what's wrong with warrior's using Gaxe, paladin tanks, or thiefs, so blm must not be getting any parties

That being said, I like most of your ideas, I think I would tweak 'em just a little bit:

Make failed skillchain attempts (i.e. another WS that occurs during the skillchain window) reduce the damage of the un-chained weaponskill.
This will nerf TP-burn slightly since players will have to coordinate their efforts so that they either complete a skillchain or allow enough time between weaponskills to avoid making one.

I agree 100% with what Raydeus said about this, in addition, I'm olde school, I likes my sparkly skillchains and shiney magic bursts of death and destruction. The ONLY time I would not consider doing skillchains would be when fighting the Colibri family of monsters, I tried SC+MB on them, and Feather Tickle would almost always mess things up. So in general, IMO, and I do realise that this opinion seems to be in the minority since this thread is dealing with this problem, any mob that uses a move that keeps you from using a WS to SC with, be it feather tickle or amnesia (though I think that only affects job abilities) those would be the only mobs I wouldn't bother doing a SC on.

Make elemental damage spells that are not accompanied by a Magic Burst increase the Magic Resistance of a NM more than a Magic Bursted spell.
This is just a safety measure to encourage players to include melees into their strategies when fighting NMs, rather than just nuking them down to nothing (which is still happening).

Me likes What about making it so that magic bursts reduce a mobs magical resistance? But that can kinda tie in with the rest of my post:


You suggested making the mobs defense fall when a SC+MB is performed, I say maybe.

From my experiance, players are stuck in the mindset that Distortion is the endall SC to do, whether or not we have a thief in the party. You could be fighting Bombs, which are weak to fire, and people would STILL want to do a distortion SC + MB without a strong closer for distortion, why? Because it's teh best SC so STFU N00bzorz (yes, I've been told that actually) So, what about making Skillchains more interesting?

What I propose is that Skillchains have an added effect, maybe it's just the corresponding blm elemental enfeeble, but that wouldn't be enough IMO, I think it needs more.

Also, since no one wants to do a level 1 skillchain when they could do a level 2 or 3 skillchain, I think that each and every skillchain should either have it's own special thing to make it unique, so like you would get a different effect by doing a Fusion SC rather than a Liquefaction SC, even though both are fire. Or else since Liquefaction is a level 1 SC, Fusion should have the same effect but stronger because it's a level 2 SC.

And the effects could be anything, maybe a strong Def down, maybe a strong magical def down. Rdm complain that they don't get higher tier enfeebles, well why not have Paralyze III be the added effect for doing Impaction? What about Ice Spikes for the entire party for doing any of the Ice SC? Or Regen for the party for doing Light skillchains?

Whatever the added effect should be, make it so that it is not a huge party boost so that you can now get like, 50k exp/hr, but make it so that it is beneficial enough to the party so that they have to stop and think, "do we want to spam WS for more damage, or do we want X buff? Do we want to pick a SC that the mob is weak to for more damage, or do we want Y effect/buff more?"

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

I like how people are going to argue against Icemage on stuff they have no idea about. HEY ICEMAGE, stop looking down on the noobies! THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO. Just because they havn't done much in the game doesn't mean they don't know more than others who've done a lot.

PS. Nerfing TP burns ain't the answer to making BLM/SC better in my opinion. Though, there some things that make TP burns strong that could use some adjusting, simply making SC damage and MB benefits(I've heard the idea that getting a major MP Conserve bonus, like 5% back) betters could be enough, along with a real manaburnVsNM nerf.

[Sabaron]

Re: The BLM Problem

I like how people are going to argue against Icemage on stuff they have no idea about.

Everyone who plays the game, new or otherwise, has some basis of knowledge on which to provide a useful contribution to an argument.

HEY ICEMAGE, stop looking down on the noobies! THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO. Just because they havn't done much in the game doesn't mean they don't know more than others who've done a lot.

This statement contradicts your first statement. The fact that you don't particularly like Icemage is readily apparent in every single thread that contains both of your names, I think it's a well-known fact by now. Just get over it.

PS. Nerfing TP burns ain't the answer to making BLM/SC better in my opinion. Though, there some things that make TP burns strong that could use some adjusting, simply making SC damage and MB benefits(I've heard the idea that getting a major MP Conserve bonus, like 5% back) betters could be enough, along with a real manaburnVsNM nerf.

Well, the best way to correct this is numerical advantage. The numerics of the game are messed up, not the basic systems that are in place:

If a partial 100% TP bonus is worthless, then one of two things should occur:

1) The TP between the two plateaus should be conserved when activating a power.

OR

2) The TP between the two planteaus should represent a linear ramp in benefit. Linear is (IMO) the best way to go with most game numerics. It is simple, but is an open enough system that it allows for great complexity without overstressing the processor, and it is obvious--More is always better and moreover linearly better (i.e. the benefit to having More doesn't decrease).


This makes TP a little bland, however, we can change our linear function at the plateaus by increasing the slope by a small amount--If we make the amount too large, then we run into the problem that everyone will be saving TP to 200%+ but not 300% since any overage will be wasted. Unless of course, there's a "bump" at 300% that makes a certain amount of overage not wasteful, but this, again results in conservation of TP rather than activation. We want more activation.

This means that skillchains have to be value-efficient for the set up cost. For instance, in Valkurm Dunes, a Distortion skillchain might only return a measly 3 damage. The only reason anyone would use a skillchain at such a level is only for the magic burst. Of course, you can't make the damage so high that it shadows the magic bursts--because this would lead to invitation of another melee DD for another SC rather than a weaker Magic Burst user. Therefore, Magic Burst damage and SC damage must be roughly equivalent on the basis of a party mix of say... 2 DD Spellcaster, 1 abstaining spellcaster, 2 chain participants, 1 abstaining melee indicating that a magic burst should be approximately 50% of the damage of an equivalent elemental chain since it takes 2 dudes to do a skillchain but only 1 to do a burst. Exceptional spellcasters can often pull off a double burst and we can add spellcasters each with the same power, so if we factor those in (using some statistical basis which I don't have), we might end up with MB being approximately 30-40% of SC damage. Once we have our statistical basis, we put it in place and wait for the whining....

If the mages are whining, we need to "nudge" it up. If the melees are whining, we need to "nudge" it down. If everybody's whining, it's probably just right (because the law of whining states that a whiner whines even when there's nothing to whine about).

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

This statement contradicts your first statement.

You've fallen in a sarchasm!

Why the quoting of the related-to-topic portion of my post, when it is completely indifferent compared to lets say, the OP. Now the reply to that... (by the way, what is with all the 'THIS IS A COMPLEX ALGEBRA QUESTION' talk, we are not trying to figure out a weaponskill's modifiers here).

First off, what? You seem to be talking about Weaponskills, not Skillchains. Well, it could be what you are saying is to explain the reasoning why spending your TP right away is better than saving it to SC, however, that doesn't make much sense. In almost all parties the SC partners will SC as soon as possible, at least, if there isn't anything else in the way(like messy position for SA/TA or poor communication). If people are taking their time to deliver the burst-damage, then the battles are going to take longer than they should. Even if this was the case, this does nothing for TP burns or SC-based parties. Going at 100% or when your party is ready will always be better because you are trying to take out the monsters as soon as possible. I'm won't say improving WSes is a bad thing, but it does almost nothing for the current situation. It would make killing HNMs (even) easier, but does nothing to slow down TP burns. I'm going to pretend you been in one, so you would know that its the constant damage preventing the monsters from acting by acting quickly as possible and doing damage.

Second, let's think as if you are talking about SCs. Well, making SCs stronger in terms of maximun damage isn't going do much at all. It's the accuracy. If your closer does a 1000 damage weaponskill, you are liable to get anything from 20 to 1000 on an EP, IT, or level 90 HNM. If you could almost constantly do an additional WS or half worth of damage, depending on level, worth of damage to a exp-monster of VT, even IT, SCs would be more attractive.

Now after making them more accurate, it isn't enough alone. If you really want to get more hit many birds with one stone, you would deal with the issues "most SC-based WSes ignored", "MBing being worth it", and "BLM not being worth it in a party of melee" at the same time. Have WSes that have a purpose to make better SCs do more damage when closing a SC. Have BLMs gain a bonus from MBing... giving them MAB would only help on HNMs because SC+MB is usually the final moments of a monster's life, so give them (conserve) MP... 5-10% MP return, possibly based on the damage done. Have elemental DoTs increase SC damage of a matching SC(Light could be Burn, Shock, Chock, or even Dia).

SCs doing low damage in Dunes is okay. Its scales up nicely as weaponskills progress. As long as they are doing their maximum damage more than not, then there is no problem with the damage of SCs.

Oh, and Icemage is a fine guy, but he'll do anything to ban me, he makes pushing buttons look so fun. I'm sure he'll tell himself that this statement itself is offensive and award me 10 warning points in an effort to ban me.

[Sabaron]

Re: The BLM Problem

You've fallen in a sarchasm!

Sarcasm is rather transparent online, wouldn't you say? I would have no idea you were being sarcastic without being told.

Why the quoting of the related-to-topic portion of my post, when it is completely indifferent compared to lets say, the OP. Now the reply to that... (by the way, what is with all the 'THIS IS A COMPLEX ALGEBRA QUESTION' talk, we are not trying to figure out a weaponskill's modifiers here).

Everything in a game is an algebra question, complex or otherwise, because all game mechanics are inherently algebraic. Therefore, we actually have to think about how the numbers fall. My numerical suggestions are merely indicators to what a fair outcome might look like in the end.

First off, what? You seem to be talking about Weaponskills, not Skillchains.

The two are interrelated. I am speaking in regards to both.

Well, it could be what you are saying is to explain the reasoning why spending your TP right away is better than saving it to SC, however, that doesn't make much sense.

Most parties have been doing exactly this for some time, TP Burn or otherwise. The percentage of parties that I've been in that set up and use a skillchain is very small and decreasing.

In almost all parties the SC partners will SC as soon as possible, at least, if there isn't anything else in the way(like messy position for SA/TA or poor communication). If people are taking their time to deliver the burst-damage, then the battles are going to take longer than they should. Even if this was the case, this does nothing for TP burns or SC-based parties. Going at 100% or when your party is ready will always be better because you are trying to take out the monsters as soon as possible. I'm won't say improving WSes is a bad thing, but it does almost nothing for the current situation.

The problem being addressed, at least in my case, is the tossing of WS outside of chain and the preference for straight SC over SC/MB combination. Taking out the monster asap is obviously the goal with any party. The goal of this thread is to make adding a BLM to a party to be as good as adding another WS'er or SC'er or more specifically, to enhance party diversity by diminishing returns from too much of one thing. I believe SE is also trying to address the Manaburn issue as well, though this is not the topic of this thread.

It would make killing HNMs (even) easier, but does nothing to slow down TP burns. I'm going to pretend you been in one, so you would know that its the constant damage preventing the monsters from acting by acting quickly as possible and doing damage.

You can pretend I've been in a TP Burn party, but as I never said that I had been, I will now state that I have, in fact, not been. My observations relate to the operation of Skillchains, Weaponskills, and Magic Bursts within a mixed party. Mages are not oft welcome in TP Burn parties and I play mages most generally. I also had no intention of suggesting a boost to WS but rather a tweaking of the equation to limit diminishing returns on Partial 100% TP bonuses. In fact, since it appears to be the SC/MB end which is deficient, it is the SC and the MB that I'm suggesting require adjustment rather than the WS's. Although, since we're looking at the big picture of overall statistical outcomes, it may be that in order to maintain the current rate of killing (thus avoiding problems with spawn timers and xp chaining) it will likely be necessary to adjust WS as well.

Second, let's think as if you are talking about SCs. Well, making SCs stronger in terms of maximun damage isn't going do much at all. It's the accuracy. If your closer does a 1000 damage weaponskill, you are liable to get anything from 20 to 1000 on an EP, IT, or level 90 HNM. If you could almost constantly do an additional WS or half worth of damage, depending on level, worth of damage to a exp-monster of VT, even IT, SCs would be more attractive.

I really do not care about the specifics of Accuracy versus Damage. I'm more concerned with the actual outcome overall which, for lack of a better term, I call Damage which is a representation of the combination of accuracy and damage. Per se the "Average Burst Damage" of such-and-such SC is 1000 and the "Accuracy" is 50%. The "Damage" in my case refers to the statistically normalized damage, in this case, 500.

Now after making them more accurate, it isn't enough alone. If you really want to get more hit many birds with one stone, you would deal with the issues "most SC-based WSes ignored", "MBing being worth it", and "BLM not being worth it in a party of melee" at the same time. Have WSes that have a purpose to make better SCs do more damage when closing a SC. Have BLMs gain a bonus from MBing... giving them MAB would only help on HNMs because SC+MB is usually the final moments of a monster's life, so give them (conserve) MP... 5-10% MP return, possibly based on the damage done. Have elemental DoTs increase SC damage of a matching SC(Light could be Burn, Shock, Chock, or even Dia).

Doing an MP Conservation is adding another iron to the fire--making the equation more complicated rather than correcting an existing imbalance. Every time you add a variable, you increase the complexity of the system dramatically. I am making a suggestion for how the existing system might be altered numerically to solve the problem without adding features. I'm always in favor of fixing that which is broken as opposed to correction via Duct Tape. The Duct Tape adds its own problems to the system and usually doesn't provide a complete solution to the problem.

Oh, and Icemage is a fine guy, but he'll do anything to ban me, he makes pushing buttons look so fun. I'm sure he'll tell himself that this statement itself is offensive and award me 10 warning points in an effort to ban me.

I could understand why, your posts have an irous tone, but that may just be the way you do things. Analogously, although I doubt it would enhance my FFXI experience in the game to have you in a party (more likely to the contrary), I wouldn't actively seek to have you removed or refuse to join said party were you in it. You also didn't use any overtly offensive language and you actually spoke toward and provided a point of view on the issue at hand rather than ranting about something entirely unrelated (that is not to say that you do either); therefore, I doubt if such an "award" would be justified--at least in this case.

[Aeni]

Re: The BLM Problem

They really need to give old school PT some tougher mobs to kill at 75. The same way we level up from 1-60 : /

Even better suggestion, Replace all mobs in ToAU with Faffy type mobs and lower spawn rate to every 15 min. like everywhere else.

SO WHERE'S THE TP BURN NOW, HUH? HUH?

:p

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The BLM Problem

First off, what? You seem to be talking about Weaponskills, not Skillchains. Well, it could be what you are saying is to explain the reasoning why spending your TP right away is better than saving it to SC, however, that doesn't make much sense. In almost all parties the SC partners will SC as soon as possible, at least, if there isn't anything else in the way(like messy position for SA/TA or poor communication). If people are taking their time to deliver the burst-damage, then the battles are going to take longer than they should. Even if this was the case, this does nothing for TP burns or SC-based parties. Going at 100% or when your party is ready will always be better because you are trying to take out the monsters as soon as possible.

What we're saying is this: Skillchains aren't happening and the whole point to Weaponskills is to create SCs for magic bursts. You know, party dynamics. "Strategery," as Bush would put it.

Its not there.

It's just blow your TP and 100 percent ASAP on the pathetically weak mob. The ToA EXP mobs are highly weak to melee attacks and this is wholly inconsistant with the original release and the prior two expansions.

And it seems its not just BLM out there waiting. There's a holding patten even for melee at 70-73 right now. If you don't have Utsusemi: Ni, its like you're a freaking leper. I know a MNK - great guy, amazing player - who's been slogging along in those levels because he'll pull too much hate and Ichi won't cut it.

Hoping Ni will get a nerf probably won't get you anywhere, SE looks to be creating incentives to so with others sub and I hope it works out, but I fear it may not be enough. I think spawn rate and mob DEF needs some adjustment to make balanced PTs happen again. I don't expect much on the colibris to change, as being anti-magic seems to be their thing, but we can toughen up some other mobs, it silly they're so weak, epecially when it takes a half hour to kill the same kind of mob in Besieged.

[Vyuru]

Re: The BLM Problem

Even better suggestion, Replace all mobs in ToAU with Faffy type mobs and lower spawn rate to every 15 min. like everywhere else.

SO WHERE'S THE TP BURN NOW, HUH? HUH?

Ok, I had to laugh there Instead I'd just give all mobs Tail Spike and be done with it

:somewhere in west ronfaure:

The Rarab uses Tail Spike!

99 new players take 9999 damage!

Bwahahahhaa.

And it seems its not just BLM out there waiting. There's a holding patten even for melee at 70-73 right now. If you don't have Utsusemi: Ni, its like you're a freaking leper. I know a MNK - great guy, amazing player - who's been slogging along in those levels because he'll pull too much hate and Ichi won't cut it.

Ugh, I am NOT looking forward to that, I'm starting to hit that in the high 60's. I really don't get it either, WHY should I gimp my damage so that some crappyass tank can hold hate? Why should I gimp my damage because players think that no tank parties are the best?

Moreover, if I were a paladin who got to level 75 who went through this, why should I die in HNM fights for you?

Everyone needs some lovin', take it like a man and accept your 6-8k/hr exp standard parties, we know how horrible they are.

Just because it's a fad like arrowburns, manaburns, or fist burns, does that mean that everyone should be forced to not only accept it, but be made to like it? Because that's what is happening, TP burn parties seem to be the "only" way to level, that is if you want a warrior, ninja, or a few other jobs in your party.


Sorry, but that is unacceptable.

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

Omgwtfbbqkitten

Sorry, I don't I can handle hearing your comments, so let's pretend you never posted. It's probably either unrelated, too obvious, or something ignorant. No reply here to that.

However,

Sabaron

On something not relating to the topic, you seem to talk more than is required on the subject, like if I took half the words of some paragraphs and deleted them, I could still understand your point. Let's just get to the point, okay? Also, you seem to be confusing what I think you are saying (because your post was rather cryptic) with what I think.

I guess I'll have to quote your words in the same way you did to be clear.

The two are interrelated. I am speaking in regards to both.

There is a difference. Making WSes stronger does rather little for SCs in most situations. SCs need to be stronger. With the SC, the BLM gets stronger in the mixed party.

In fact, since it appears to be the SC/MB end which is deficient, it is the SC and the MB that I'm suggesting require adjustment rather than the WS's.

Really, then why constantly bring up WSes?

I'm more concerned with the actual outcome overall which, for lack of a better term, I call Damage which is a representation of the combination of accuracy and damage.

Well, I'll be happy to inform you, the current situation is only accuracy. The maximun damage a SC can do is the same as the closing WS(though I don't think that is the same for a multiple SC). The problem is, SCs are so easily resisted they are hardly worth doing. You'll get an amazing amount of damage maybe once or twice every hour or thirty minutes in a quick and active SC party, but most of the time it will be crap. The answer is simple, make it not be resisted by exp monsters.

Doing an MP Conservation is adding another iron to the fire--making the equation more complicated rather than correcting an existing imbalance...

I'm always in favor of fixing that which is broken as opposed to correction via Duct Tape.

I'm going to answer this in three parts:

1) Do you know what is wrong with SCs, and BLMs along with them? Well we already pointed out the problem with SC damage, and thats the big one. If you fix the accuracy on it, then you "fixed what was broken". However, even with that, doesn't do awhole lot with BLM. BLM themselves need an another advantage to being in a mixed party, a party where they need to control themselves because they are limited by MP gain and hate.

2) Do you know how TP burns work? Aside from being able to take a monster down fast, TP burns, good ones anyway, exceel at never stopping. This is why /NIN and the only two mages being RDM and BRD(curers, buffers, and most importantly, refreshers) are so popular. They are able to never run out of steam, just keep pulling and pulling. This is how they get +15k/hour exp, because it never stops. In other parties, mainly SC parties, if a BLM plays his best, as in do as much damage without drawing hate, he will run out of steam at some point and have to hold back for a short period of time. A BLM in this situation is stuck to 1-2 nukes a battle(including MB) and maybe some DoT/Enfeebling.

3) Now, what could help BLM and incourage them to join parties, just like SE wants? Well, simple. Give them MP so he doesn't run out of steam. Giving BLM an MP return on MBs is flawless in this nature.

A BLM MBs Burst II, the spell costs 287. Because he MBed, he will recieve 15% of it back, effected by Conserve MP, lets say .1 per 1 Conserve MP. I'm not sure how much Conserve MP BLM gets from the trait... lets say 30 on Trait I and 20 on Trait II... so a level 68+ has an additional 5% bonus on MBing, compared to a, WHM/SMN who MBs Holy.

This BLM has +10 Conserve MP(1%) worth of gear, adding this up, he will get back 21% on Burst II. That is around 60 MP. Quite a nice bonus and would help BLMs a lot. The fact Burst II also increases in damage when MB'd is enough to encourage it being used.

That is all I have to say on the matter for now, I hope you understand.

[Vyuru]

Re: The BLM Problem

This BLM has +10 Conserve MP(1%) worth of gear, adding this up, he will get back 21% on Burst II. That is around 60 MP. Quite a nice bonus and would help BLMs a lot. The fact Burst II also increases in damage when MB'd is enough to encourage it being used.

Erm, I dunno, an actual conserve mp bonus to magic bursts is kinda meh to me, conserve mp from what I have seen kicks off enough times already and conserves a random amount of mp. Seeing the blm in my old static cast that Ice AM for about 12mp was more than a little disgusting to not only see that once, but 3 times.

The problem is, SCs are so easily resisted they are hardly worth doing. You'll get an amazing amount of damage maybe once or twice every hour or thirty minutes in a quick and active SC party

Er, no, ever party with a thief? Do you have any idea how often I see a thief close a SC and have the SC do either the same, or 2/3 of the damage the thief did? I get an amazing amount of damage 99.99%, did you ever consider that there are more factors in the equation?

The answer is simple, make it not be resisted by exp monsters.

I don't think so, why should exp monsters be "easy"?

BLM themselves need an another advantage to being in a mixed party, a party where they need to control themselves because they are limited by MP gain and hate.

If it is a balanced party toss in a thief and the hate issues go away except for nuke happy blm. Add to that the fact that mp gain isn't an issue in a balanced party since there will be some downtime for the mage when the puller goes out, in between SC depending on how the blm manages their time and what their gear is.

And yeah, this does happen, last party I had was drg, sam, pld, whm, blm, drk, we fought the fire crawlers and had no downtime unless our paladin got killed, which only happened twice due to the crawler's breath attack killing him at full hp. Our blm was a mithra who used her mp smartly, if she can do it, I am sure other blm can do it as well.

In other parties, mainly SC parties, if a BLM plays his best, as in do as much damage without drawing hate, he will run out of steam at some point and have to hold back for a short period of time.

Sometimes true, but when he does, it's what, 1-2 minutes at most to get his mp back from 0 to full? When you fight T-VT mobs the blm shouldn't even NEED more than 2-3 nukes including the MB, heck most times he just needs to MB on the SC and the mob is dead, Puks anyone?

them MP so he doesn't run out of steam.

Juices, refresh, Vermy cloak, black coat, songs, smn sub, all provide refresh effects, and since very few of the blm that I party with ever use any of their white mage spells, the sub is rather pointless then, and smn for more mp, or rdm for fast cast and dispel would probably be better.

Toss into there the fact that the blm relic basically does what you want, more MB damage, -enmity, refresh, elemental skill +, mp+, conserve mp+, and magic damage affected by day, so it's already in there, and since most dynamis shells will let in mages at level 65, and since this trend is starting in the late 60's, there is really no reason not to get the relic armor.

Oh, and Icemage is a fine guy, but he'll do anything to ban me

Take a look at what you said to Omgwtfbbqkitten.

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

I don't think so, why should exp monsters be "easy"?

I'm not even sure how to respond to this... because they already are? What you are saying is "Why should people be allowed to kill monsters in mixed groups, when they can do it better in burn parties?".

And yeah, this does happen, last party I had was drg, sam, pld, whm, blm, drk, we fought the fire crawlers and had no downtime unless our paladin got killed, which only happened twice due to the crawler's breath attack killing him at full hp. Our blm was a mithra who used her mp smartly, if she can do it, I am sure other blm can do it as well.

I'm sure your party was nice, but compared to a TP burn getting at least 5k more exp, maybe even 10k. The Mithra BLM wasn't playing at his best if he never needed to rest. The fact you had a PLD who suffers from the same problems(endurance) as BLM in these kind of parties. Who are trying to argue with here? It is the great, wise SE saying this in their own words.

Juices, refresh, Vermy cloak, black coat, songs, smn sub, all provide refresh effects, and since very few of the blm that I party with ever use any of their white mage spells, the sub is rather pointless then, and smn for more mp, or rdm for fast cast and dispel would probably be better.

Jesus christ... I'm just going to stop there. I don't think this is our first encounter, but just...stop talking please. You are hurting the arguement of anyone with the same opinion.

I can't even take you seriously, but as I'm trying really hard, you don't have much of a point. I know standard parties can kill monsters, but they suck so bad compared to a TP burn party.

I've never met an experienced BLM, who has seen both sides of normal parties and manaburns for a long time, opposed to the idea of getting MP back from MBs. I did not dream this one up, it was talked about in a topic similar to this one, with only high level BLMs participating. Since the issue beings at 65+, I really hope I'm not talking to level 8 WHMs here. Where do you people get your ideas?

Also if you are going to make insane claims like Conserve MP bringing Freeze to 13 MP three times, you need some proof. Your little static BLM buddy did something no one else in FFXI has ever done, three times. What's even more concerning is that this guy probably wasn't level 70+ at the time and Conserve MP gear is not common before that range, at least without great costs(not say its enough even then).

One last thing

Add to that the fact that mp gain isn't an issue in a balanced party since there will be some downtime for the mage when the puller goes out

Now here is the problem. If a BLM has time to get one tick in a pull, then your party will never compare to a good TP burn. Mind you, that is just one tick, and the first tick is always the longest for a BLM, you won't get two ticks off in a minute. If a BLM has time to rest the party is not playing at its max, and if the BLM isn't having a hardtime with their MP being spent after 3-5 battles(I guess it depends on the level) then that BLM isn't playing at its max. All the while, TP burns have no problem playing at their max and not running out of steam.

PS. Juices and Refresh do not stack(and likewise, you can't wear two cloaks at one time, and two refreshers for one party is usually too much, unless it is a TP burn), and juices are rarely used by non-crafters. Please put some (realistic) thought in this, or you are just spamming in spaces between good replies.