The BLM Problem

[Sabaron]

Re: The BLM Problem

Mages do all sorts of things that do this. Unfortunately, BLM's do not have much in the way of support magic. We RDM's provide debuffs and enhancements to melees that give them a significant edge. BLM is on the far edge of magicry--the DD edge. Their skills are concentrated almost entirely on generating magic-based damage.

The only issue I have with creating "Buff Bursts" as was mentioned earlier is that it feels sort of "foreign" like it doesn't mesh well with the games overall aesthetics. It also creates a lot of new variables that get thrown into the equation that might make BLM the thing to have... I mean, Stoneskinra on a nuke is very nice, even if it's weak and if they stack...better invite two BLMs. Heck, just combine two super-hasted SAMs, a RDM or BRD and 3 BLMs and you have a new elitist party.

You never know how new content is going to effect dynamics. For that matter you never know how changing existing content will effect them either. The idea is to move slowly. Determine what might appear to be a better WS/SC/MB damage equation set and then slowly change your coefficients starting at the status-quo until you find the sweet spot, and if you never do, well, back to the drawing board. A bit of experimentation and careful adjustment is needed.

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

Hardly exploitable if you are only getting around 1/5 of your MP back on a MB.

[x1ang]

Re: The BLM Problem

I don't know, but from what I've always understood, many HNMs require a BLM. So I don't think this is an issue. I think the problem lies with players not using skillchains which would make a BLM useful. However, forcing players to skillchain won't change anything either. There's got to be a real need to have BLMs in the first place. Skillchains is just one fact, a big one maybe, but not the only reason. BLM downtime breaks chances for chain #200.

Oh, as in the issue of HNM fights heavily relying on BLMs heavily nuking and the lack of participation of melee.

[tdh]

Re: The BLM Problem

Hardly exploitable if you are only getting around 1/5 of your MP back on a MB.

I'd say it wouldn't be exploitable if they made sure it only kicked in when Conserve MP did NOT fire off. Otherwise, a BLM MBs Light with Firaga III, get 55MP back because they landed the MB'd, and Conserve MP kicks in so only 200MP was used. That's 132MP "gained" right there, making this Firaga III in question, damn near half off.

Granted we can't bank on Conserve MP kicking in and saving you that much MP, but at the same time it seems like some days Conserve MP is on overdrive. (I've recieved back to back Refreshes for 10MP, and I've also had some Warps that cost less than 100MP.) Maybe it should be 1~5% of damage MB turned into MP?

[Macht]

Re: The BLM Problem

Mages do all sorts of things that do this. Unfortunately, BLM's do not have much in the way of support magic. We RDM's provide debuffs and enhancements to melees that give them a significant edge. BLM is on the far edge of magicry--the DD edge. Their skills are concentrated almost entirely on generating magic-based damage.
The only issue I have with creating "Buff Bursts" as was mentioned earlier is that it feels sort of "foreign" like it doesn't mesh well with the games overall aesthetics. It also creates a lot of new variables that get thrown into the equation that might make BLM the thing to have... I mean, Stoneskinra on a nuke is very nice, even if it's weak and if they stack...better invite two BLMs. Heck, just combine two super-hasted SAMs, a RDM or BRD and 3 BLMs and you have a new elitist party.
You never know how new content is going to effect dynamics. For that matter you never know how changing existing content will effect them either. The idea is to move slowly. Determine what might appear to be a better WS/SC/MB damage equation set and then slowly change your coefficients starting at the status-quo until you find the sweet spot, and if you never do, well, back to the drawing board. A bit of experimentation and careful adjustment is needed.

They can keep adjusting but if doesn't draw the players intrest to actually do it's useless. Unfortunatly the way many Americans are, and I have 3 million sales and 300k survey responces that confirm, they aren't patient to wait for tweaks to get it just right. You need some sort of token gesture added to keep their intrest.

Basically you give them a stick they'll have fun with it for a while, start adding rules on what they can do with the stick and starts losing it's appeal. Then wait you add a shiney coin with the stick and it become intresting. The idea isn't to make some thing extreemly good, just something that'll help briefly. Why I was trying to fit it around what you'd get off moogle events, some are helpful little trinkets were it's bonuses basically is just enough that without would of gone worse.

The timers are going along the effect of medicine like stuff, they provide the effect immediatly but can't get the effect again till the medicine effect wears. That would prevent the 1 hit prevention like stoneskin from turning into a like Utsusemi thing, it prevents that 1 sleep from being sleep immunity, it prevents 5% Cure from replacing WHMs as a compiling heal effect, it prevents 1 stun from being 100% stun resistance, and so on. Also to notice the one I didn't have to a 1 hit wonder was the att. & rng. att. bonus, which it would fade after the times up, this provides an outlet were Mages can do damage but also provide something that would assist an aggressive play style.

Even more added proof on what I'm stating, if just adjusting was good enough then why add this extra to Besiege if all that would be needed to make it better is just adjust the EXP gained. Because often that alone isn't enough, so they add in more trinkets "Ballista items" along with more challenges and benefits. Even still it seems it might not be enough, just look at Icemages responce were he's still doubtfull of it.

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

I'd say it wouldn't be exploitable if they made sure it only kicked in when Conserve MP did NOT fire off. Otherwise, a BLM MBs Light with Firaga III, get 55MP back because they landed the MB'd, and Conserve MP kicks in so only 200MP was used. That's 132MP "gained" right there, making this Firaga III in question, damn near half off.

Granted we can't bank on Conserve MP kicking in and saving you that much MP, but at the same time it seems like some days Conserve MP is on overdrive. (I've recieved back to back Refreshes for 10MP, and I've also had some Warps that cost less than 100MP.) Maybe it should be 1~5% of damage MB turned into MP?

While the concern isn't misplaced, I don't think it would be a big deal. A situation like this happening wouldn't be too common as Conserve MP is rare, maybe as common as a melee getting a critical on a weaponskill. Though, if the possibility of this happening is enough to be annoyed by it, it could always be a return on the MP actually used, not the cost, which makes sense if Conserve MP is already involved(adding .1% per number).

It may sound a bit extreme at first, but think about the type of endurance BLM needs to compete with a melee. It really is only 1/5 of a spell they are getting back, and thats only after they get both Conserve MP traits.

[Sabaron]

Re: The BLM Problem

...You need some sort of token gesture added to keep their intrest.

I had said something about that earlier...

I would tend to agree. The problem from a developers standpoint, however, is encouraging people not to do that and to use more varied techniques. From a business perspective, however, one really doesn't care what strategy people use as long as they remain happy and satisfied that you appear to be doing everything you can to help them in their various plights and to be fair. Thusly, small adjustments periodically give the illusion that you're actually doing something when in reality most of what you fix breaks something else in the process.

While I agree completely with the trinkets and whistles mentality for various things. I would suggest that such trinkets and whistles be rather innocuous in nature and actually fix that which is broken.

With regards to "innocuous", I simply mean that they be horribly fair. For instance it is difficult to balance a damage mitigation ability with a damage dealing ability; therefore, adding perhaps an extra spell here, or a weaponskill there might be kinda nifty, but it really doesn't change the mechanics of the game, of course, it can also be considered "bland" and same-old same-old. This is what expansion packs are for... you take some wild ideas and brew them up on a dedicated server with say... a random mix of players--Import some old hats from existing servers and dump in some noobs for color and watch them play with the shiny new items you gave them.

[Vyuru]

Re: The BLM Problem

While the concern isn't misplaced, I don't think it would be a big deal. A situation like this happening wouldn't be too common as Conserve MP is rare, maybe as common as a melee getting a critical on a weaponskill.

Conserve mp's activation rate for me has been rather high, say 1/20 casts that I have actually noticed it go off. As a rdm/blm tossing out cures, enfeebles, buffs, debuffs, and nukes, that's pretty darn high.

It may sound a bit extreme at first, but think about the type of endurance BLM needs to compete with a melee.

The arguement can go both ways, normal blm damage is almost on par with weapon skill damage, it's not uncommon to see 350+ damage nukes without any magic bursting in the low lvl 60's range. Saying that blm have to "keep up" with melee damage is kind of inaccurate, if anything it's the blm who have to hold back so that the hate stays on the tank.

[Icemage]

Re: The BLM Problem

Conserve mp's activation rate for me has been rather high, say 1/20 casts that I have actually noticed it go off. As a rdm/blm tossing out cures, enfeebles, buffs, debuffs, and nukes, that's pretty darn high.

If you really do the math, though, since Conserve MP saves a random amount of MP, that's really not a huge amount. Like so many other traits, Conserve MP looks a lot better on paper than it works in practice; because it is so random, you can not plan on having it work. It's nice when it kicks in - extra nice when it kicks in a lot, but it's so inconsistent that it would be foolish to rely on it for planning or even contingency purposes.

The arguement can go both ways, normal blm damage is almost on par with weapon skill damage, it's not uncommon to see 350+ damage nukes without any magic bursting in the low lvl 60's range. Saying that blm have to "keep up" with melee damage is kind of inaccurate, if anything it's the blm who have to hold back so that the hate stays on the tank.

That's the problem though - for a BLM to parse numbers high enough to make them worth spending a party slot on, they need to be casting spells big enough to draw hate. In a TP-burn setting in ToAU zones, hate bounces around like a pinball, and a BLM is the poorest choice you want to have for someone to pull hate with. Dragoons and Samurai have their own ways of dealing with hate spikes even without /NIN, but a BLM can't do anything defensively without expending MP to use defensive spells from a support job (well, unless you think subbing NIN is appropriate for BLM - but that again begs the question of why you want an MP-restricted damage dealer versus a non-MP restricted damage dealer).


Icemage

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

That's the problem though - for a BLM to parse numbers high enough to make them worth spending a party slot on, they need to be casting spells big enough to draw hate.

Personally, I'd say the fact our endurance is horrible might be an even bigger issue.

[Vyuru]

Re: The BLM Problem

In a TP-burn setting in ToAU zones, hate bounces around like a pinball, and a BLM is the poorest choice you want to have for someone to pull hate with.

That is very true.

That's the problem though - for a BLM to parse numbers high enough to make them worth spending a party slot on, they need to be casting spells big enough to draw hate.

See, blm is very similar to thief to me. They can stun mobs helping the tank get off ninjutsu for ninjas or cures for paladins, they can do insane damage on the MB, if things go horribly wrong in a dungeon they have escape, they can sleep links, and just tons of other stuff. For me, they don't have to be dealing damage similar to a melee to warrant a place in a party, they have other uses.

Another thing I was thinking about, how many camps at these levels do the ToA zones support? It really doesn't seem like that many camps for the TP burn parties. So while it doesn't seem that there are that many players at the higher levels lfg in comparison to say, the level 30-50 range, it also seems like there are fewer camps to support the TP burns.

I guess what I'm trying to say, it seems that there are a handful of TP burn camps, myself personally, I am not going to say "if I can't get a TP burn party then I won't join any party at all!" I'll toss together the best party I can and see what camps support it and go from there, I can get 7k/hr exp easily from a standard party, I'm not going to turn my nose up at that in hopes that I might get the right jobs for a TP burn for more exp. I find both enjoyable, standard parties are more fun though IMO (less chance that I die) and I get exp one or another, so I have no real preferences. So I also have a harder time understanding people who would go out of their way to party with X job for whatever reason.

My major complaint with the mp back on magic bursts, is just, how much mp does a blm typically spend per fight?

Assuming a level 67 blm, I normally see them MB with thunder III on light SC, so that would be 128/5 = 25.6, so about 27 mp back for that, so the blm spent 101mp for that nuke. Then I normally see them use their next highest spell to nuke with, say blizzard III or fire III, normally depends on the mob's weakness, I see at least 2 of those so say 240 mp there, I normally see a couple of stuns, so let's say 2 stuns for 25mp each and 50mp total. Elemental debuffs, some blm do and some don't, so I won't count them, and this is for a blm who is playing a little conservatively. So that is a total of 101+240+50=391mp per fight, I don't think that blm will get more invites just because they saved 27mp on the MB'd nuke. It's not a bad idea, but I don't think it would be the right thing to do.


What if Aspir was changed to drain hp and convert it to mp? All mobs have hp, but I think the only mobs that have mp are crabs, beetles, and magic using monsters. Which I think the ToA zones don't have many of.

[Icemage]

Re: The BLM Problem

What if Aspir was changed to drain hp and convert it to mp? All mobs have hp, but I think the only mobs that have mp are crabs, beetles, and magic using monsters. Which I think the ToA zones don't have many of.

I made a off-the-cuff suggestion in the BLM forum a couple days ago about a new BLM ability that would allow you to cast one spell every 3 minutes that drained HP instead of MP from your pool.

As for enemies that have MP this is a pretty decent list.


Icemage

[Vyuru]

Re: The BLM Problem

As for enemies that have MP this is a pretty decent list.

Interesting, I never would have thought that colibri had mp to aspir, or wyverns, so how about this?

Either give all mobs mp to aspir and give blm Aspir II, aspir has a 1:00 recast timer right? This way blm can keep up on their mp pool while alternating between aspir and aspir II, or....

Let party member pets be targetable by blms using aspir. Heck, I don't care if a blm aspirs my wyvern's mp (if she has any) Courier Carrie must have one nice big fat mp pool sitting unused, and don't bst have a beetle pet? I'm not sure on that one.

I like the use hp instead of mp idea, sucks to be that taru blm though that used Aeroga III with it But on the flip side it makes being a galkan blm more possible since it would be a job ability and you could choosewhether or not you wanted to use it, an dwhen you wanted to use it.

Or, why not give blm a double cast job ability? Do something like the second spell costs no mp and is instantly cast after the first one, this way blm could get off two MB in one SC for the cost of only one spell. Most SC+MB will take down most of a mob's hp, so the second MB'd spell would hopefully finish off the mob, I don't think it would be overpowered if it was on say, a 10:00 recast timer like elemental seal.

[Taskmage]

Re: The BLM Problem

I like both the ideas of using hp to cast spells and being able to drain a mobs hp to replenish your mp. Either idea follows the flavor of a black mage and the change would be similar in scale to the other job adjustments SE has made so far. Much easier to throw in a new spell or ability than to adjust mob stats across the board or probably alter the function of skillchains.

[Legal Fish]

Re: The BLM Problem

I like both the ideas of using hp to cast spells and being able to drain a mobs hp to replenish your mp. Either idea follows the flavor of a black mage and the change would be similar in scale to the other job adjustments SE has made so far. Much easier to throw in a new spell or ability than to adjust mob stats across the board or probably alter the function of skillchains.

Actually they both sound more like Dark Knight abilities than Black Mage abilities... not that it would matter too much to SE I bet, though the names and styles of the new SAM abilities say otherwise.

However, grabbing MP from a pool of magic? A pool of magic from an SC maybe? Sounds right up Black Mage's alley.