multi-hit WS and TP

[Vyuru]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

One thing I would like them to change is that right now, if you miss the first hit on penta thrust, you only get 4tp back, it would be nice if SE made it so that the first hit that lands get's the full tp/damage, and the rest are at 100% tp and 1%tp regain.

Good to know about the 300% for the first hit, and all others are at 100%, i didn't know that.

[Macht]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

In any case thing that annoys me, is how could someone be so sure of any of that mathmatic being right. I mean I could easily go and say that it's:

100%TP = 0.95 mult
200%TP = 1 mult
300%TP = 1.25 mult

5 hits @ 100% TP = 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 = 4.75
5 hits @ 200% TP = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5.00
5 hits @ 300% TP = 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 = 6.25

I mean have they actually gotten many results were only the first hit landed and no others? That would prove so much more.

[Armando]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

Well, for one thing, it's kinda established that only the first hit will actually vary. It wouldn't be impossible to test, though - just test it on a mob several levels higher than an EXP mob, SAWS it, the first hit will land and the others will probably miss, especially with how iffy Penta Thrust is. If you want to avoid the first hit and test the others, you could find a NIN mob with shadows up. Besides, Studio Gobli is known for being very meticulous.

[bside]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

In any case thing that annoys me, is how could someone be so sure of any of that mathmatic being right. I mean I could easily go and say that it's:

100%TP = 0.95 mult
200%TP = 1 mult
300%TP = 1.25 mult

5 hits @ 100% TP = 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.95 = 4.75
5 hits @ 200% TP = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5.00
5 hits @ 300% TP = 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 = 6.25

I mean have they actually gotten many results were only the first hit landed and no others? That would prove so much more.

Like Armando said, there are ways to test things like that, and yes, results that Studio Gobli posts are based on numerous number of tests (refer to the links I posted earlier in this thread), that are controlled, valid, and reliable.

We know how many hits we did by looking at how much TP we got right after WS', there's a tested and trustworthy formula to calculate WS damages, and we can expect how much damage we should be doing by using them. Not to mention we can also control hits by some degree, like using it to almost-dead mobs so only the first hit lands, thereby finding/making sure of what the first hit's multiplier is. And after that, you can test consecutive hits, one by one.


While some people tend to say things based on nothing but their feelings, those results are there not because they "felt like it," but because there are numbers that support them. Of course, as we tacitly understand, whether you believe such results or not is entirely up to you. But so long as the outcomes have supported it, and that they are based on the numerous amount of controlled tests, I as a one trust them.

[Macht]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

Like Armando said, there are ways to test things like that, and yes, results that Studio Gobli posts are based on numerous number of tests (refer to the links I posted earlier in this thread), that are controlled, valid, and reliable.
We know how many hits we did by looking at how much TP we got right after WS', there's a tested and trustworthy formula to calculate WS damages, and we can expect how much damage we should be doing by using them. Not to mention we can also control hits by some degree, like using it to almost-dead mobs so only the first hit lands, thereby finding/making sure of what the first hit's multiplier is. And after that, you can test consecutive hits, one by one.
While some people tend to say things based on nothing but their feelings, those results are there not because they "felt like it," but because there are numbers that support them. Of course, as we tacitly understand, whether you believe such results or not is entirely up to you. But so long as the outcomes have supported it, and that they are based on the numerous amount of controlled tests, I as a one trust them.

I've done many Sidewinder on near dead mobs out of curiosity of that. No way a mob that I know would die from 200 damage would be taking a single hit from a sidewinder for 1k+ damage. I've seen the obvious difference because Barrage does stop after mob has taken the damage amount (It's why the weak mobs around the starting town will only take around 300-400 damage from a barrage but still takes 2k+ from a sidewinder.

Hell even off a non-ranged weapon in acordance to the damage they take from a normal hit indicates that the WS damage still deals the full thing weather the mob had enough or not. I did try the links but it's just way to much talking is all I could find an nothing that looked like actual test results.

I do know full well that you get normal TP from first and 1 for each subsequent. I have had multi-hit WS hit only on 1st and only 1 time on a subsequent, damage didn't look any different to me especially of 300% TP to indicate that the first is that drastically different. According to the data displayed at 300% TP it seems that the damage on 1st and subsequent should be drastic I mean god on WS that 2.25 multiplier on a 300% TP means that the damage difference should be very drastic.

I'm just stating with all the developed game structures I've seen others make and done myself this just doesn't jive right. It just sounds like speculated guess using the idea that in an ability like SA only counts for first hit and rest don't get the bonus in a multi-hit WS. That would make sense then because SA is suppose to be for 1 hit only.

It's fun trying to read through those linked sites, but I could not find anything that seriously looked like test data.

[Raydeus]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

so higher TP can help the damage, but if it doesn't affect the accuracy that much, the effect should be insignificant

I think that would be one of the best ways to improve multi-hit WS (and 1 hit WS too), by giving a good and reliable acc bonus acording to the TP used.

[Icemage]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

The easiest way to test the damage for multihit WS would be to enter Diorama-Abdjalis and have someone cast Utsusemi, attack them twice, then use the multihit WS.

You could even test things like Pentathrust with a Ninja and a Dragoon by using Pentathrust against a 4 shadow Utsusemi: Ni.

Just because things are difficult to test does not make them impossible, and the group at Studio Gobli are particularly well-known for their research methods. I can't read Japanese, but I'll take bside's word that the research is there.


Icemage

[Macht]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

The easiest way to test the damage for multihit WS would be to enter Diorama-Abdjalis and have someone cast Utsusemi, attack them twice, then use the multihit WS.
You could even test things like Pentathrust with a Ninja and a Dragoon by using Pentathrust against a 4 shadow Utsusemi: Ni.
Just because things are difficult to test does not make them impossible, and the group at Studio Gobli are particularly well-known for their research methods. I can't read Japanese, but I'll take bside's word that the research is there.
Icemage

Yeah, that's just my problem with it. It's also what's been molded into me from my Father, Mother, and even my work. I just won't take someone's word at face value, if the miles of testing results is there I want that before I trust anything.

Also don't forget that Ballista stuff does play on different rules then normal fights, it has to in order to level the playing field some between players. I mean a mage that can just put everyone to sleep over and over gives to much power for a player vs. player match. So of course a resistance build is there and it increases, since it's playing with some altered physics got to prove first that the physics are working close enough to justify the ballista results to be equal to fighting against mobs.

[bside]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

I've done many Sidewinder on near dead mobs out of curiosity of that. No way a mob that I know would die from 200 damage would be taking a single hit from a sidewinder for 1k+ damage. I've seen the obvious difference because Barrage does stop after mob has taken the damage amount (It's why the weak mobs around the starting town will only take around 300-400 damage from a barrage but still takes 2k+ from a sidewinder.

Sidewinder isn't a multi-hit WS. It simply deals quadruple damage, like Viper Bite does double damage, while they appear to be multi-hit. Barrage works much in a way multi-hit WS' do, so you're right, it stops when the mob dies, but those WS' that deal double/triple/quadruple damage simply does one damage. This is precisely why Viper Bite works so well w/ SATA; 1 double hit gets the advantage of SATA, instead of 1 of 2 being SATA and another being normal.

EDIT: Just so people won't be mislead, "double damage," or of any other multiplier, does NOT mean the final damage output is doubled. For the case of Viper Bite, it's your ATK that's increased when using it. Therefore, it's effective against those mobs w/ high DEF, rather than those too weak ones. On the other hand, it's the damage multiplier for Sidewinder/Slugshot.


Nevertheless, like I said above, whether you believe it or not is your choice. And if you say whatever the results Studio Gobli posts are suspicious and not trustworthy, I do honor that.