multi-hit WS and TP

[seq]

why multi-hit WS's TP modifies the first hit of the WS?
something like Rampage (Critical hit varies with TP) if a WAR (or BST or any job that can use it) built 300TP and used it, only the first hit will be a 300TP hit and the other hits at 100TP... why not all 300TP?
more like Penta thrust (Damage varies with TP) only the first hit is in effect of 300TP and the other 4 hits... 100TP..... why not 300TP if the player built 300TP already...
i'de like to build TP for such WSs, but since it's only for the first hit why should i bother.

[Zamphire]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

Because 5 hits, even if not effected by tp is still better then a one hit WS.

[Haggai]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

Why bother waiting until 300? Most WSs dmg/tp value is best at 100%. You'll do better damage over time shooting off at 100%.

Then again, this may be the reason.

[Raydeus]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

This is one of the questions I'd really like seeing SE giving a response to.

The way it is now makes saving 300 TP seem pretty uselss for the most part if you compare it with the damage 3 separate 100 TP WS would do.

[Haggai]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

This is one of the questions I'd really like seeing SE giving a response to.

The way it is now makes saving 300 TP seem pretty uselss for the most part if you compare it with the damage 3 separate 100 TP WS would do.

Plus, getting 100TP three times is faster than getting 300TP once because using the WS gives TP.

[Armando]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

Because 5 hits, even if not effected by tp is still better then a one hit WS.

This statement is misleading. A 5-hit WS with an fTP of 1.0 and a one-hit WS with an fTP of 5.0, on average, are equivalent. If the 5-hit WS has chances to crit but the one-hit doesn't, the 5-hit will pull ahead. However, if you SA the one-hit WS, it's the equivalent of having crit'd all 5 hits of the multi-hit WS.

The way it is now makes saving 300 TP seem pretty uselss for the most part if you compare it with the damage 3 separate 100 TP WS would do.

And if they had made it backwards, there wouldn't be much sense in having only 100 TP. Saving up to 300 TP isn't useless, it's just not useful in an EXP party. Two DD's with 300 TP Skillchaining can open an anticipated fight (popped NMs, etc.) with a big advantage.

[seq]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

Plus, getting 100TP three times is faster than getting 300TP once because using the WS gives TP.

and if the first hit of the multi hit WS missed you'll get hmmm 4TP (or less) which is nothing.
think of Asuran fists as an example, 8 godly hits (Accuracy varies with TP) when a MNK saves 300TP the first hit will get the good accuracy but 7 hits will be left out with a 100TP.
edit the description of the WSs and say "first hit Accuracy vary with TP, 7 hits 100TP" or fix it so all the hits have the same TP the player used, please. >.>

[Raydeus]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

And if they had made it backwards, there wouldn't be much sense in having only 100 TP. Saving up to 300 TP isn't useless, it's just not useful in an EXP party. Two DD's with 300 TP Skillchaining can open an anticipated fight (popped NMs, etc.) with a big advantage.

But still, considering the time it takes to gather 300 TP (even for a SAM) the damage increase you get in return is very dissapointing in most cases. It's not like you'd have to gather 300TP everytime, but more about that when you did it really made a difference.

Now, I don't know if making all hits count as the same TP as the first hit would be the best way to improve this, especially since I don't know the math behind WS damage calculation and most of the things I've seen are more guesstimates than anything.

Which is why I would like seeing SE answering this question.

[Aeni]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

why multi-hit WS's TP modifies the first hit of the WS?
something like Rampage (Critical hit varies with TP) if a WAR (or BST or any job that can use it) built 300TP and used it, only the first hit will be a 300TP hit and the other hits at 100TP... why not all 300TP?
more like Penta thrust (Damage varies with TP) only the first hit is in effect of 300TP and the other 4 hits... 100TP..... why not 300TP if the player built 300TP already...
i'de like to build TP for such WSs, but since it's only for the first hit why should i bother.

I do know the reason (This is just an educated guess)

Remember when WSs would return full TP on each successful strike from a multi-hit weapon skills? Think about it for a moment. What happened?

SE reduced the TP gained from each strike after the first hit.

Think about what the OP has asked.

TP effect only affects the first hit on a multi-hit WS.

Coincidence? No, I think not. If you think about it like this, all of a sudden, you have a new angle to look at how the whole WS/TP system is working. Seems like they are very closely tied together.

Changing one apparently changed the other. I'm sure people got full effect from each strike back when they could get full TP as well.

[Macht]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

I do know the reason (This is just an educated guess)
Remember when WSs would return full TP on each successful strike from a multi-hit weapon skills? Think about it for a moment. What happened?
SE reduced the TP gained from each strike after the first hit.
Think about what the OP has asked.
TP effect only affects the first hit on a multi-hit WS.
Coincidence? No, I think not. If you think about it like this, all of a sudden, you have a new angle to look at how the whole WS/TP system is working. Seems like they are very closely tied together.
Changing one apparently changed the other. I'm sure people got full effect from each strike back when they could get full TP as well.

This would suggest a significant damage difference with certain WSs if that was the case, yet damage is still like it was before that change. So if anything this logic proves that TP had been gained wrong from the start and it wasn't to stop infinite Asuran Fist cycles that MNKs could make.

[Aeni]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

This would suggest a significant damage difference with certain WSs if that was the case, yet damage is still like it was before that change. So if anything this logic proves that TP had been gained wrong from the start and it wasn't to stop infinite Asuran Fist cycles that MNKs could make.

Actually, Macht, there were significant reduction in damage. Remember when the DRKs cried "Guillotine nerf" and Dragoons cried "Pentathrust" nerf? They weren't only talking about TP either...

This is why the "importers" sometimes would say things like how tp modified damage on Guillotine (When in fact it has NOTHING to do with damage - only the duration of silence) because, at one point in time, Guillotine's damage was TP dependant or had shared the the modifiers with the silence duration.

This is why you sometimes see the change referred to as being a "nerf to melee damage" which in essence there was a shred of truth to that claim, considering the huge void which was immediately filled by nothing but BLMs (Which continues today with SMNs)

[bside]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

why multi-hit WS's TP modifies the first hit of the WS?
something like Rampage (Critical hit varies with TP) if a WAR (or BST or any job that can use it) built 300TP and used it, only the first hit will be a 300TP hit and the other hits at 100TP... why not all 300TP?
more like Penta thrust (Damage varies with TP) only the first hit is in effect of 300TP and the other 4 hits... 100TP..... why not 300TP if the player built 300TP already...
i'de like to build TP for such WSs, but since it's only for the first hit why should i bother.

To my knowledge, it's only tested and confirmed for those WS' w/ TP: modifies damage. Other WS' such as Rampage are yet to be tested for confirmation, while there was the Rampage's parse on Studio Gobli's forum that suggests that at least critical modifier works on all hits, but that wasn't a enough data to prove.

It takes too much data to come up w/ the definite answer. Damage modifier is rather easier to test, but when it comes to accuracy and critical, we have to use WS' for 1,000+ times under the proper testing environment, which nobody bothered to carry out yet.


Though in Japanese, these are the references that might be helpful;

Studio Gobli
FF11 Encyclopedia of Terminologies, page on multi-hit WS
Testing Thread Archives

[Anaki]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

im confused if the 300 tp is only the first hit then why is it if i get 300 tp and penta i can do more then just a bit more damage with all 5 hits landing. like 100 tp versus 300 tp is damage of 1 to 2 with all 5 hits landing both times. is the firsthit 90% of the wses damage then??

[VZX]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

penta's multiplier for 100,200, and 300% TP are 0.75,1.00,2.25 according to studio gobli. for consecutive attacks, multiplier is 1.00
so you can think this way:
5 hit @ 100% : 0.75 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4.75
5 hit @ 200% TP : 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5.00
5 hit @ 300% TP : 2.25 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6.25

so higher TP can help the damage, but if it doesn't affect the accuracy that much, the effect should be insignificant

[Celeal]

Re: multi-hit WS and TP

Actually, Macht, there were significant reduction in damage. Remember when the DRKs cried "Guillotine nerf" and Dragoons cried "Pentathrust" nerf? They weren't only talking about TP either...

This is why the "importers" sometimes would say things like how tp modified damage on Guillotine (When in fact it has NOTHING to do with damage - only the duration of silence) because, at one point in time, Guillotine's damage was TP dependant or had shared the the modifiers with the silence duration.

This is why you sometimes see the change referred to as being a "nerf to melee damage" which in essence there was a shred of truth to that claim, considering the huge void which was immediately filled by nothing but BLMs (Which continues today with SMNs)

Yea, it is so true. I remember the time after the WS-TP adjustment when a lot of DD has trouble when compare against RNG (before range attack adjustment).