Limited Merits at Player Discretion

[Mhurron]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

Nope, tried Maat twice, stopped leveling RDM when ToAU was released to level other jobs and some crafts, won't be trying Maat again until November at the earliest.

sudden drop in Rep Power

Who cares, it's a meaningless number.

[Vyuru]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

Actually, after reading that and thinking about it, it probably would make sense to merit in the lower lvls. If you could merit like +4 to your weapon skill, that will help you in all of your lvls as you lvl up. It would almost be overpowering, though. If you could fully or close to fully merit dragoon/whm, you'd tear through mobs, and people would start to frown upon inviting people without merits.

The main benefit I can see is that I could use Skewer or Wheeling thrust a level earlier if I had one or two merits into my polearm skill, everything else is just gravy

I'd also like to point out the lvl 30 rings that boost specific stats, the ones that can be obtained from the Promy ENMs. They only give +3 to one stat, but some of these, enfeebling earring and elemental earring, go for 2.5mil and 4mil respectively. So while that is only +2 to a particular weapon rating, people are willing to pay alot of gil to get that in gear, so I would not be surprised if alot of the lower leveled players were in favor of this.

[ikkleste]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

Honestly, this is one of my main concerns with this idea. Probably needless worrying on my part, but there it is. It wouldn't take long for people to start insisting that you have merits as soon as you're able, and soon enough, you would have to take even longer to get through those midgame levels because you'd have to stop getting exp every now and then to merit up.

That would be frustrating as hell.

but what is to stop that happening now?

the difference now is that the merits are only available to those who've already got to 75. If people start saying merits:O in their search comment how is someone going through first time meant to keep up with those leveling a second job after meriting. They can't, theres no way for them to make up the deficit.

However this hasn't happened, and changing the system could start this. My veiw is for now if it ain't broke don't fix it. However if it becomes a case of you have to be merited on a low job to be invited it would need fixing, it's something they should keep an eye on, and if it becomes a problem for newbies, then SE pretty much has to bring in some way for them to keep up, and graduated merits could be a way to achive this (although it could draw out the leveling process significantly).

A pro for this argument is that it could to a degree increase indviduality for all levels. People could build their jobs towards different styles, (WAR tank setup or WAR DD setup) although most likely it would just end up as something else cookie cuttered out of all interest like subs and equip.

Also, the game isn't designed for this. The mobs you fight for xp are designed to be hard for your level. If you can merit your weapon skill, you're effectively being able to hit a monster at the same rate as someone one to two lvls above you.

so why do they let people who've merited one job carry down their merits to another, surely that would cause exactly the same problems?

[Murphie]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

but what is to stop that happening now?

the difference now is that the merits are only available to those who've already got to 75. If people start saying merits:O in their search comment how is someone going through first time meant to keep up with those leveling a second job after meriting. They can't, theres no way for them to make up the deficit.

However this hasn't happened, and changing the system could start this. My veiw is for now if it ain't broke don't fix it. However if it becomes a case of you have to be merited on a low job to be invited it would need fixing, it's something they should keep an eye on, and if it becomes a problem for newbies, then SE pretty much has to bring in some way for them to keep up, and graduated merits could be a way to achive this (although it could draw out the leveling process significantly).

That's my whole point. As it is right now, not having a level 75 is still a good enough reason to not have to worry about people expecting you to be merited. The folks who have already gotten to75 realize that hey, it takes some time to do this, and only folks who have already done it have access to merits.

But if lower level folks were able to merit, it would very likely soon become almost mandatory for certain jobs to take the time to merit certain skills if they wanted any kind of regular invite rate. There are always going to be princess jobs, of course, but the jos that already have a hard time getting exp would just have to fight all that much harder, because they would have stretches where they would have to put their exp towards these mini-merits instead of using it to level up.

so why do they let people who've merited one job carry down their merits to another, surely that would cause exactly the same problems?

Nothing more than the fact that there are still a lot of folks who aren't 75. It's like expecing a newbie WAR to sub NIN in the jungles or something. They simply can't, so parties (usually) understand that and don't give them any grief about it.

And many people do benefit from having merits in another job. That's perfectly fine, IMO at least, because they have taken the time to get another job to 75, and have also taken the time to merit skills. I don't believe that this is enough of a reason for them to eschew gear or proper playing, but there are many of them who do feel that way, at least during the lower levels.

But anyway, the FFXI player base is notorious for turning something optional into something required if it's percieved as "ideal" for whatever reason. I just don't think that adding something else to the mix at the middle levels of the game that would seriously slow down players would be such a great idea.

[ikkleste]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

That's my whole point. As it is right now, not having a level 75 is still a good enough reason to not have to worry about people expecting you to be merited. The folks who have already gotten to75 realize that hey, it takes some time to do this, and only folks who have already done it have access to merits.

But if lower level folks were able to merit, it would very likely soon become almost mandatory for certain jobs to take the time to merit certain skills if they wanted any kind of regular invite rate. There are always going to be princess jobs, of course, but the jos that already have a hard time getting exp would just have to fight all that much harder, because they would have stretches where they would have to put their exp towards these mini-merits instead of using it to level up.

i think we're basically in agreement here, both sides have merit, but here the status quo wins, theres nothing not working as it is, and while it may or may not be popular with the players to change things the fact nothing is broken, in this case, makes risking change unadvisable.

so why do they let people who've merited one job carry down their merits to another, surely that would cause exactly the same problems?

Nothing more than the fact that there are still a lot of folks who aren't 75. It's like expecing a newbie WAR to sub NIN in the jungles or something. They simply can't, so parties (usually) understand that and don't give them any grief about it.

I think you missed me here... Hamlet was implying the difficulty level would be broken if we were allowed to merit earlier. That the mobs would be too easy. I wasn't talking about player expectations, i'd kinda of moved on a little. What i was addressing here is that if allowing early merits breaks the mobs difficulty, then surely thats the case already as we have plenty of people already at lower levels with merits (from higher jobs).

However to adress your analogy with reference to my first argument (player expectations) yes a newbie war wouldn't be expected to be /NIN in the jungles, people will understand if he isn't. However If there is a WAR/MNK seeking there against a WAR/NIN a heckualot of people will pick the /NIN over the /MNK. While this hasn't yet creeped into peoples thinking as far as merits go, there is a danger it could.

But anyway, the FFXI player base is notorious for turning something optional into something required if it's percieved as "ideal" for whatever reason. I just don't think that adding something else to the mix at the middle levels of the game that would seriously slow down players would be such a great idea.

Agreed again. For whatever reason meriting hasn't become an issue at lower levels (neither desired nor expected) and the best course to keep it like that is to leave it alone.

[Akai]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

well, i dont think its a good idea, because people worked hard to get to 75, to get the reward of being able to use merits, and other endgame rewards. making it so level 50 people(or whatever) get to use merits, you will see alot less people seeking at 75, due to the fact that they can merit on a 50 job, and thus, making it alot harder to get to 75

[Ziero]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

For the most part, you won't see the effects of merits on a lower lvl job. They don't start to show up until 30 on a new job and they are only slowly. At worst someone can use a WS one lvl early because they have 2 more skill in a weapon, is that really such an advantage?

As said before, merits area reward for getting to the top. But switching jobs doesn't negate that reward, it just diminishes it. Just like gear, once you have it, it's yours. Should people who use higher lvl jobs to gain an item be unable to use it on lower lvl jobs? The higher you get the easier all your other trips up will become. Anyone can reach lvl 75, the only thing stopping someone is themselves. People will say 'well I can't get pts because I'm XXX job' but completely ignore the fact that there are hundreds of other players with that job at 75.

And just for the record, I'm no where near 75. I don't have any merits or even most of my Genkais done yet. But I still see no reason for lower lvl jobs to be able to merit when we can just lvl up and get a far bigger bonus then any merit point could give.

[Karinya]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

It would also be nice to have merits for all of the level capped stuff I do, which used to be quite alot, but my main concern is that with more and more people reaching lvl 75, I would not be surprised to start seeing Merits: O in people's search comments, and that is what I do not want.

It would be pointless to put Merits:O in a search comment. Anyone smart enough to read search comments before inviting people isn't stupid enough to discriminate based on merits - they're looking at SC compatibility, mob weak points or TNLs instead. You are basically never going to see someone who is the same as you on all those points and only differs in merits.

It's only the morons who bitch about wearing Jaridah over SH (believe it or not, I've even heard of people getting grief for wearing Assault Jerkin) who would discriminate based on merits, and they don't read search comments in the first place - they're too busy blind inviting you.


Seriously, though: everyone who is level 75 got there without merits. There is no job that needs merits to level. The benefits of leveling would far exceed the benefits of meriting, except in level capped areas; and all level capped fights can be (and have been) won without merits already. Why should SE make it easier for lower level people to shoot themselves in the foot and delay reaching so much of the game's content?

I sort of sympathize with Taskmage's point about having friends who can't play that often, but I think opening up merits at low levels would cause more problems than it solves. The friend who plays more often will just have to take up a second job, or craft, or something. If he's dedicated enough he could even farm and split the profits with his friend that can't play as often, allowing his friend to make more efficient use of the time he *does* have. Or they could do ENM or exp scroll quests together with one friend putting the exp toward his main while the other puts it toward an alternate job.

Eliminating merit carryover to other jobs - possibly while allowing limited effect in level capped areas if your main is 75 - would probably have been a more balanced idea in the first place (and it would help avoid shooting yourself in the foot with enmity merits, but that should have another thread all to itself), but would be likely to cause public outcry if it were implemented now. At least the bonuses are small enough to not be a big deal.


P.S. I've been leveling DRG in my spare time lately. Since I'm PLD75, I could get some merits (on my RDM since PLD merit invite rate sucks *much* worse than mid-level DD), change to PLD and spend them on polearm and it would benefit my DRG; but I'm not, because putting the same time into gaining exp on my DRG (even solo, with NPC fellow) benefits my DRG much more. Isn't this just as true or even more true of someone who *doesn't* have a RDM75 to gain merit points with and a PLD75 to spend them with and would have to gain them all with their DRG? In the time it takes to get the merits to use Skewer at 59, you could not only be 60, but probably 62 or 63.

P.P.S. I deliberately didn't choose a DD as my first job partly because I knew about the DD glut and how expensive/hard to get some of the gear was. Everyone else has the same option I had - level up a high-demand job for rank, missions, gil, connections etc. and *then* go for DD after you have the resources to support it. If they chose the harder path, do they still have a right to complain that it is harder? But then, I have to admit that I don't understand the mindset of people that only enjoy one job or one type of job.

[Hamlet]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

What i was addressing here is that if allowing early merits breaks the mobs difficulty, then surely thats the case already as we have plenty of people already at lower levels with merits (from higher jobs).

I personally don't even think they should be transferable (but since they already are, I'm not in favor of nerfing them out, either).

The main differences between now and if you let lower lvl people merit is they will be able to merit things for their main job. Most people currently merit their best weapon, and that usually isn't the same best weapon for the job their going to lvl up on. Also, job traits and abilities aren't transferable currently, but they would be merittable on a low job.

If there's something that gives players an advantage, you better believe people are going to use it. So, while there are a few people with lower lvled jobs currently with *some* helpful merits from their 75 job, what I forsee is almost everyone will merit as much as they can, to the point where an entire party could be fighting as if they are one or two lvls above what they actually are.

[Newbusarcanemus]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

Personally, i wouldn't mind being able to level up and obtain merits before reaching lvl 75. It would nice to atleast have something on the table in that area, when trying to max jobs to 75.

[Mhurron]

Re: Limited Merits at Player Discretion

i wouldn't mind being able to level up and obtain merits

It would be one or the other. At lvl 32-33 you would make the choice of either being in EXP mode and leveling up in 6k and getting increases to most or all your stats, or being in Merit mode getting 10k to increase to one stat and having to do another 6k later to level up.

So do you want to take 6k exp or 16k exp going from 32-33? It makes no sense when leveling up will give you stat increases in most or all your stats for less work. At 75 you no longer have that option so with merits you get to choose how to further evolve your character and job.