Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

[Nazo]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

If you're going to buff pld I'd rather see them do more damage than take less damage. Reduce their damage taken to the same point as nin and you now have both burn parties and traditional parties not needing a whm. The new meritable abilities have tipped the scales even more in the favour of rdm, I liked the ones whms got but they don't do a lot to enhance our desirability compared to tier II enfeebles.

[Karinya]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I just have one question for plds and blms or whatever other job that is getting left out of these melee burns.

Why is it suddenly a problem when your job is the one being left out, but for years and YEARS melee of all kinds had to lfg for hours on end every single day? Why is the game broken now but it wasn't then?

I think melee burns are really great. That being said, I don't like it when any job is left out, and I the only solution I can think of without nerfing is buffing pld.

Keep in mind that I've never played a job in this game where I had to lfg for hours. But I had lots of friends that did (and they were all melee).

Because all of those jobs were always good and wanted for parties... there were just more people playing them than the community actually needed.

No level 74+ party wants a paladin.

50 people competing for 20 spots is very different than 30 people competing for 0 spots, even though the number of "excess" people is the same.

For a while, my major source of PLD exp to replace all the deaths in Dynamis and HNM was... Beseiged. Because once the beastmen show up, people will invite whoever's there and not argue with them about whether they have /NIN.


I have no problem with tankless parties making *about the same* exp/hr as traditional parties. I have a large problem with them making *twice as much or more* - because then, practically everyone will refuse to join a traditional party, except the jobs that can't get into a tankless party.

And you can't have meleeburns and traditional parties operating at the same time *unless* they are balanced against each other, because they both need the same RDMs and BRDs.

Whether they improve DEF/VIT tanking, weaken Utsusemi (especially subbed), change the exp values of mobs, or something else, *something* needs to be done - high level job balance is seriously out of whack. Every job should be able to be part of *some* party setup that is within no more than 10-20% of the best possible party setup (in exp/hr terms), and preferably not just by replacing another job that would be directly superior to them. That's the goal, IMO. How to reach it is up to SE.


P.S. It's ironic tp burn parties don't really love dragoons considering most of them fight colibri and puks, which are both weak to piercing, so the DRG is probably outdamaging everyone else even without the wyvern.

[PTT]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

To Karinya,

Very eloquently stated. That is exactly how I feel. Thanks for writing it like that, because I don't think I could have come up with the wording to make it sound similar. ^^

I know it's not "Impossible" for us PLDs to get a party, but I can say with all honesty that I'm feeling a small fraction of what Dragoons must feel throughout most of their career.

The very fact that there've been so many posts debating from one side or the other means that 'something' should probably change, not just for Paladins, but for other jobs as well. I personally can't speak for any other job at high levels...

...but I can say that everyone should be able to play a job that's wanted. Just the other day, I was told I was an unnecessary EXP/Money risk, wanting to do things as a PLD, and that I should level a 'useful' job.

Every job should be useful. Every job should be wanted.

[Newbusarcanemus]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Yes, i agree. This issue needs to be seriously addressed, I think paladins need a major upgrade. The fact that paladins are being outdone by ninjas in defense is plain cruel. I think the idea of making their shadow spell as effective as blink would help. I also always like the idea of upping the paladins up alittle more. Maybe more job traits to help with damage taking, anything! Please save the paladins ; ;

[csBahamut]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

...but I can say that everyone should be able to play a job that's wanted. Just the other day, I was told I was an unnecessary EXP/Money risk, wanting to do things as a PLD, and that I should level a 'useful' job.

Every job should be useful. Every job should be wanted.

Exactly. The jobs already exist in the game, so they should all be useful in some way. Of course, this arguement sort of backfires since PLDs are useful in Dynamis and on HNMs. They're just expluded from those "godly" merit parties. Though if the game was truly balanced, any job would be able to be in a merit party of some form and be able to reach the maximum potential exp/hr. And that is what these expluded jobs, like PLD, want.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Okay, if PLDs could be hit for 0, all the time, they still would not get invited to an exp party at 75, unless they plan to DD.

A good PLD can out DD a decent Axe/Axe WAR.

If you don't like the idea of killing monsters fast, then go afk and don't exp. Jobs change, people adapt, look at NIN.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

If you don't like the idea of killing monsters fast, then go afk and don't exp. Jobs change, people adapt, look at NIN.

Ah yes ninja, a job that was originaly created to DD, and found out it could tank. And at endgame can be a very effective DD by getting an increadibly low delay.

The large difference between it and Paladin, is that Paladin was originally created to tank, not DD, but people are adapting.

I don't particularly like it myself, but I will always have that option open past 60+ though most of that time I hope to tank in my glorious white armor.

(And besides, thats why I have a LS full of my friends who want me to level right now so I can tank for them, and party with them . So I always have that to fall back on 73+ for exp)

[Vyuru]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

That's true, although I don't think War or Mnk gets a huge preference over the others in traditional parties. They usually get one DD and then try to find another that SCs well with that one.

I don't know, all of the TP burn parties I either get invited to as drg, or I pass while doing whatever in the ToAU zones normally have 3 warriors, or 2 warriors and a bst/nin in them. I don't know if it's just there are so many warriors LFG or what, but just running past parties lately (within the last 2-3 months) I see at least 2 warriors in them.


I would like to see paladins upped in some way, because nobody handles hate like a paladin tank, I'm sorry, but that is just the way it is, from my experiance a ninja tank almost requires a thief to hold hate as well as a paladin, yet there are too many ninjas, and too few paladins and thiefs when I go to make a party, kinda sucks :/

Magic damage wise, I've only been with paladins in exp parties, so I don't know what the HNM magic stuff is like, but I could easily see where an ability like Celes's where she would absorb the spell and turn it into mp would be good for paladins. Yes, they have that relic shield, but I don't think that any job should be required to get a fully upgraded relic item in order to even be considered useful. I would also agree that vit/def should be made more useful.

A simple change to Utsusemi which does make sense, would be to make it so that you have a 1/X chance of being hit, if you are hit, all your shadows disappear since the monster would know that it hit you. Example: with Utsu Ichi, you get 3 shadows, plus yourself. You have a 1/4 chance of being hit, if the monster hits a shadow, you have a 1/3 chance of being hit now, if you parry or evade the monster, the monster should not know that you are the real one, and you retain your shadows. AoE should still damage you and strip your shadows, however I would say that a cone shaped AoE (poison breath) should be made to either strip your shadows with no damage, or strip your shadows with damage. True AoEs (ga spells, astral flows, etc) should damage you and strip shadows.

[Macht]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

A simple change to Utsusemi which does make sense, would be to make it so that you have a 1/X chance of being hit, if you are hit, all your shadows disappear since the monster would know that it hit you. Example: with Utsu Ichi, you get 3 shadows, plus yourself. You have a 1/4 chance of being hit, if the monster hits a shadow, you have a 1/3 chance of being hit now, if you parry or evade the monster, the monster should not know that you are the real one, and you retain your shadows. AoE should still damage you and strip your shadows, however I would say that a cone shaped AoE (poison breath) should be made to either strip your shadows with no damage, or strip your shadows with damage. True AoEs (ga spells, astral flows, etc) should damage you and strip shadows.

Kind of the thing I and a few others were already stating but players get so defensive about that. Yeah, it makes sense and follows exactly to the concept clones do in many Ninja stories and even anime (refference Naruto). Which is why I used Naruto to refference that because it's probably one of the best sources to get a wide range of the mythical beliefs of a Ninja.

csBahamut, the feedback idea is intresting but I have doubts of it's implimentation. The idea doesn't fit to the common Ninja Lore, the common ninja lore is that the ninja has focused and expended his chakra already in the use of his ninjutsu. So to that effect the clone is not an entity of the ninja, basically upon taking damage the clone would simply vanish or return to its original element that it was made of.

There are a couple things that Utsusemi right now doesn't follow in the normal pattern of it's lore. In one an unskilled ninja would not be able to harness his chakra properly to actually create a clone and effectively attack at the same time. A mid-skilled ninja can clone and attack decently but when the right one is hit he looses focus of his chakra and the others vanish. A very skilled ninja can clone and attack well and even when then right one is hit can keep his focus allowing his clones to remain and for him to hide himself among those remaining again.

It's that specific element to the lore that would keep NIN main's strength as it is but reduce a sub NIN so he is of a sub quality.

To make it clearer, the two possibilities that would also follow it's Lore is that either someone using /NIN would incure a attack down penalty for Utsusemi or has a chance of getting hit and loosing all the shadows.

[Maju]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

There are a couple things that Utsusemi right now doesn't follow in the normal pattern of it's lore. In one an unskilled ninja would not be able to harness his chakra properly to actually create a clone and effectively attack at the same time. A mid-skilled ninja can clone and attack decently but when the right one is hit he looses focus of his chakra and the others vanish. A very skilled ninja can clone and attack well and even when then right one is hit can keep his focus allowing his clones to remain and for him to hide himself among those remaining again.

Define the "normal" pattern of ninja lore. Self-cloning is a supernatural ability and this is a fantasy game. I believe SE can do whatever they want with Utsusemi and it wouldn't break any lore until there is an NPC or a text in the game that explains how Utsusemi works. Also, FFXI has nothing at all to do with Naruto, so I don't really see why you think anything said in it should apply to FFXI as well.

Besides, in Naruto even the clones can attack, so perhaps a NIN who just cast Utsusemi: Ni should have a quadruple attack speed? Or how about when you cast Utsusemi: Ni and then Ichi you receive 19 shadows because your clones also cloned themselves? That is also something they do in Naruto.

[Macht]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Define the "normal" pattern of ninja lore. Self-cloning is a supernatural ability and this is a fantasy game. I believe SE can do whatever they want with Utsusemi and it wouldn't break any lore until there is an NPC or a text in the game that explains how Utsusemi works. Also, FFXI has nothing at all to do with Naruto, so I don't really see why you think anything said in it should apply to FFXI as well.

Besides, in Naruto even the clones can attack, so perhaps a NIN who just cast Utsusemi: Ni should have a quadruple attack speed? Or how about when you cast Utsusemi: Ni and then Ichi you receive 19 shadows because your clones also cloned themselves? That is also something they do in Naruto.

Again what I said was Ninja lore, the lore is mythical and just a fantasy. Also again I should point out if you did pay attention to the Ninja's in Naruto they showed a wide range variance to this Utsusemi idea. Naruto took the idea of the clones pretty much right out of the Ninja mythical beliefs and stories (lore).

Yes, they do show some clones with possessing ability to attack as well. This was more along the advanced skilled ninja's, one episode showed a Ninja who's clones truely were harmless. They make a point to say he is a low level ninja a very weak one. In that one Naruto even jumped into the mass of the clones and was just shredding them away, the real one just waiting in the group for a moment to strike.

So yes as there are potential to improve Utsusemi for Ninja as Main job there are also adjustments in the reverse that is applicable when they are a Sub job. In fact the new Ninja ability you can merit is going in that very direction of improving Utsusemi with NIN as Main Job.

Should add that the ability Sange in essence is making it were your shadows do attack. It's effect is like a RNG using Barrage pretty much. So they already made the Improvement to Utsusemi with NIN as a Main Job, only see that they do need to reduce it more when NIN is a Sub Job.

[Icemage]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Sange seems pretty useless to me. It's not like you usually have extra shadows just lying around most of the time on NIN (and it isn't like Sange is usable all that often anyway). On the grand scale of things, it doesn't appear to affect the balance of power between PLD and NIN at all.

---

That being said, I do think that PLD (even with the recent barrage of changes, from Shield Mastery to Chivalry) still needs more work to bring the balance of power back to allowing them to do what they do best; tank.

Right now, PLDs and BLMs (and to a lesser extent, WHMs, whose fortunes rise and fall with PLDs) are suffering because one of the basic gameplay elements in FFXI - the Skillchain/Magic Burst system, has been eclipsed by TP-spam tactics in XP parties. The common wisdom previously was that, because spawn times were long, it didn't help you to kill things in a faster but riskier way.

With the low spawn times in ToAU zones, gameplay has shifted dramatically to faver the most efficient, instead of the safest, combat tactics.

I don't really think there's too much wrong with Ninja right now. Utsusemi is a little flaky with the way it always blocks attacks, but I think we all agree that fixing it will break a lot of other things that depend on it.

What is really broken at the moment is the fact that skillchains and magic bursts are mostly pointless in XP/merit parties. Look at the true balance of power at end-game; PLDs are still the preferred tanks on a lot of enemies due to their ability to spike and hold enmity.

But that ability is completely wasted in XP parties at the moment, since it now makes more sense to fight weaker (T-VT) enemies that you can kill quickly by just bouncing hate around.

Until this gets fixed, I don't really see any fix working for either PLD or BLM.


Icemage

[Macht]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Don't know about that, if NINs can use Sange for finishers it adds more potents to a NIN and RNG/WAR. RNG/WAR pump out a 700-1k barrage or sidewinder going to pull it away from NIN and uses remaining shadows to blast the mob which after that should be pretty close to dead, makes for a great finishing.

With fights lasting only a few seconds the faster you can finish it the more mobs you can pull in to get even more exp.

[Icemage]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Don't know about that, if NINs can use Sange for finishers it adds more potents to a NIN and RNG/WAR. RNG/WAR pump out a 700-1k barrage or sidewinder going to pull it away from NIN and uses remaining shadows to blast the mob which after that should be pretty close to dead, makes for a great finishing.

With fights lasting only a few seconds the faster you can finish it the more mobs you can pull in to get even more exp.

You realize the base recast on Sange is 15 minutes, -2.5 minutes per additional merit (so minimum recast of 10 minutes), right? That's not a material increase in offensive potency.


Icemage

[Macht]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

You realize the base recast on Sange is 15 minutes, -2.5 minutes per additional merit (so minimum recast of 10 minutes), right? That's not a material increase in offensive potency.


Icemage

So NIN can get it down to using 1 time out of every 2-3 possible times a RNG could use Barrage. Don't know many RNGs that willing blow through arrows using Barrage every dire chance possible. Some fights end just to fast that it isn't worth using Barrage, especially if many of the jobs used WSs and such.

It's just enough time to skim right in there.