Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

[Aeni]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

As for the Utsusemi and /NIN things, those who don't see the problem don't because they don't want to, not because it doesn't exist. Of course, the problem is more complicated than simply nerfing Utsusemi or Dual Weild.

I agree. Again it goes back to Status Quo or just people who are selfish (They benefit so why should they want to nerf their own benefits, regardless of how the benefit was obtained in the first place, either through design oversight or error in programming)

[Hamlet]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

TP burns are not a new idea and no, they do not rely on /NIN to work effectively (Or at least not having to require every melee sub NIN) They've been around for a long time now. So you're saying that this is nerfing TP burn is utterly ridiculous.

A little less vitriol please. I guess maybe we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about melee burns at 74+ where everyone subs nin. That's where I get most of my xp nowadays.

I guess they've been around for a long time before that, but I never partied in one before 70+, and they really shine at 74+. When I said it would make them not work, I'm talking the 74+ ones. I thought that was pretty obvious.

You can look at melee burns as leaving people out, I see it as getting people in. If you notice, melees lfg for hours and hours if there isn't a melee burn. That's extremely common.

I have no vested interest because I'm rdm and I get invited to every kind of party.

[Maju]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I have no vested interest because I'm rdm and I get invited to every kind of party.

Can you guess how many RDMs or [insert desired job here] refuse to join PLD tank parties? I can only imagine it becomes worse when melee can sub Utsu Ni and the full TP burn starts.

I don't really see the popular TP burn jobs waiting for parties much anyway. On Midgard it seems like the same jobs that shine in 74+ TP burns get invited first for conventional parties also (and no, a conventional PT does not necessarily have a BLM since it's just another DD, only magic based). Basically this means NIN, BRD, RDM and the rest WARs or MNKs, just like a 74+ TP burn, only this time the NIN will attempt to hold hate. If those jobs aren't available you can switch NIN for PLD (if the lazy RDM allows it, some refuse to PT with PLD) or one of the DDs/BRD for a "lesser" DD such as DRG or BLM. Also, depending on the mobs you will be fighting and PT level you might need two healers (WHM, RDM, BRD) if you have a PLD tank.

[Hamlet]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Can you guess how many RDMs or [insert desired job here] refuse to join PLD tank parties?

I understand what you're saying and that's why I think pld should be buffed to the point where they require around the same amount of healing as a ninja.

Monk has a pretty well-documented bad invite rate before melee burn. Most of the other jobs are the same.

Melee burns are not nearly as exclusive as you seem to think. While war/nin and mnk/nin are the best, pretty much any melee will do. The only melee job that doesn't seem to get a big boost with invites is Dragoon, and yet I've partied with one in melee burn. It's pretty much, "Hey, do you like to hit stuff?" "Yeah!" "Allright, let's go!" Then you go hit stuff for a couple hours.

[Macht]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I thought that Runic would be a great ability for PLD to have to help balance taking magic damage. I've also thought a lot about how it could be implimented and stay balanced. The MP absorbed couldn't be too much or PLDs would be able to main heal themselves on casting mobs. That would alienate WHMs. The recast time couldn't be too low, this would make it overpowered. The duration for when spells could be cast would have to be low as well.

Here's what I've thought:
Job Ability: Runic Blade
Recast: 1-2 mins (meritable?)
Duration: 15-30 seconds (A Relic piece could increase the duration by 15 seconds)
Target: Self.
Weapon: Must be using a Sword for duration. (so no staff tanking with this)
Spells absorbed: Any damage dealing spells that targets the user.
MP Absorbed: 5-20% of MP cost of the spell.

SE would probably be much better at finding a balance of course.

As for the Utsusemi and /NIN things, those who don't see the problem don't because they don't want to, not because it doesn't exist. Of course, the problem is more complicated than simply nerfing Utsusemi or Dual Weild.

That's fairly decent, but like I was thinking in the FFXI world what if "Runic Blade" instead of restoring MP did TP. This compliments the need of Chivalry so it's a 1-2 punch and since Chivalry already has that 20 min. cool down timer on it, this prevents the MP gain from being overpowered.

In that manner this allows a few alternates to the plan.

Recast: 1-2 min.
Duration: 15-30 sec.
Target: Self
Weapon: Sword Only
Effect: Absorbs 10%-50% spell damage on self only, half % convert to TP. (This conversion shouldn't be any better in comparison to DRKs Absorb-TP)

Or:

Recast: 5 min.
Duration: 1 spell
Target: Self
Weapon: Sword Only
Effect: Absorbs 10%-75% of damage received by spell to any party member, half of % coverted to TP. (This one I'm thinking is closer to Celes' but may still need some adjustment)

Or:

Recast: 10 min
Duration: 15-30 sec.
Target: Self
Weapon: Sword Only
Effect: Absorbs 10%-40% of damage received by spell to any party member, half of % coverted to TP. (This one is actually kind of not like Celes' because in FFVI her's was basically recast each round to create that duration, otherwise she really was only absorbing spells for 1 cycle or FFXI translates to 1 time.)

The obvious adjustments would be if the spell damaged absorbed is too much and if the TP gain it powerful (Dependant on how frequently does the strongest mob cast spells and would that effect the PLD to were they gain TP rediculously fast).

[Hamlet]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I just have one question for plds and blms or whatever other job that is getting left out of these melee burns.

Why is it suddenly a problem when your job is the one being left out, but for years and YEARS melee of all kinds had to lfg for hours on end every single day? Why is the game broken now but it wasn't then?

I think melee burns are really great. That being said, I don't like it when any job is left out, and I the only solution I can think of without nerfing is buffing pld.

Keep in mind that I've never played a job in this game where I had to lfg for hours. But I had lots of friends that did (and they were all melee).

[Stiker]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

That's fairly decent, but like I was thinking in the FFXI world what if "Runic Blade" instead of restoring MP did TP. This compliments the need of Chivalry so it's a 1-2 punch and since Chivalry already has that 20 min. cool down timer on it, this prevents the MP gain from being overpowered.

...

Recast: 5 min.
Duration: 1 spell
Target: Self
Weapon: Sword Only
Effect: Absorbs 10%-75% of damage received by spell to any party member, half of % coverted to TP. (This one I'm thinking is closer to Celes' but may still need some adjustment).

I definitely like this version of the ability. More than anything else because it would ensure that we don't waste a Runic in a certain time period. If we had a certain time window for it to work, it really wouldn't be much use in my opinion. Just think, major spell gets cast right after Runic wears, everyone is hurting (or dead) and you have to wait 5 min for another cast of it. Or the mob casts two spells in a row -- taking down one of those is much better than getting smacked with both right in a row. Not to mention, two potent spells usually equals death for the PLD.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I understand what you're saying and that's why I think pld should be buffed to the point where they require around the same amount of healing as a ninja.

That would break Paladins. We garner a great deal of hate from Cures, if we were able to just negate damage and be just as good as Ninjas in that respect then our Cures would be useless, wouldn't they? Any ideas on what could be done to make up for that? One other thing I'd like to know is how the hell did Red Mages get so lazy? Back in the day you'd get booted from the party and replaced in a heartbeat, so what gives now?

Keep in mind that I've never played a job in this game where I had to lfg for hours. But I had lots of friends that did (and they were all melee).

Same here, best friend ingame finally got to 75 with his dream job. I'm happy for him, and right now I really wish I had more experience with this to lend more to this discussion.

[kuu]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Pld meriting isn't that bad.

Sure it sucks when you want lots and lots of xp in a hurry, but pld are very needed in HNMLS, and for all the menial tasks such as tigger hunting, HNM watching, they can make up xp in the long run, and do LS duty.

I think in the long run, get their fair share of things. You don't Lfg, you're already sorely in need in certain areas as it is.

A few things should be changed since the suddenly need for every 75 to merit, but I have yet to see a "boo-hoo is me" pld yet.

It's way more boo-hoo for jobs like drg, when is pretty much [I'm playing solo right now] in daily 75 life.

[Hamlet]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Back in the day you'd get booted from the party and replaced in a heartbeat, so what gives now?

Um, I'm not saying pld should need less curing so I have to cure them less (at least not because I'm lazy... I don't think there's many lazy rdms that make it to 75). I'm saying they eat up too much mp because they need to be cured so often.

With a pld, you need a full time healer just for them, and they eat up a damage dealer slot because they can't do good damage in tanking gear.

You can say that whms are lazy when they only want to pt with ninjas, but it could be because they can stretch their mp further with a ninja tank.

You bring up a good point with the fact that they wouldn't be able to hold hate as well without curing themselves as much. I suppose my idea could still work if they are responsible for most of their own curing and only require outside curing every once in a while.

Here's my theory, in a nutshell, again...

Pld doesn't work in xp as well as ninja because it uses up a full slot just for tanking, and requires another full slot just for main healing.

With a ninja tank, I can fill up two slots as once, main healer and support, and the ninja fills up about 2 slots as well, as DD and tank.

If plds required less healing, that would at least solve the problem of them requiring so much healing (read: NOT effort, but MP). My THEORY is that because they can hold hate better, the fact that they can't deal as well damage would be mitigated by the fact that the other DDs in the party can do more damage without getting hate.

I would also like to see more IT+++ mobs added, so these new plds could party with jobs that are left out of melee burn like blm and theoretically get still get xp almost on par with current melee burns. These mobs might already be in the game, I just haven't seen them.

I dunno, it's not a perfect theory, and requires some pretty hefty balancing, but it's better than totally whiping out 74+ melee burns by nerfing utsu.

[Maju]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I just have one question for plds and blms or whatever other job that is getting left out of these melee burns.

Why is it suddenly a problem when your job is the one being left out, but for years and YEARS melee of all kinds had to lfg for hours on end every single day? Why is the game broken now but it wasn't then?

I think melee burns are really great. That being said, I don't like it when any job is left out, and I the only solution I can think of without nerfing is buffing pld.

Keep in mind that I've never played a job in this game where I had to lfg for hours. But I had lots of friends that did (and they were all melee).

I used to play THF and I'm from Europe. I would go LFG for weeks many hours a day. I know what being LFG is all about.

DD jobs get more invites than other jobs, but there are just so many of them. It's not because nobody wants to invite them, they're just so many that even though they get twice the invites of tanks and healers there are many left over. The most popular ones (WAR, MNK) get picked first while the rest seek for hours. The only way to solve the problem is to either remove a bunch of jobs form the game or stop playing DD.

Excluding tanks from end-game XP parties will only move the problem from one person to another while messing up game balance big time.

[csBahamut]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Pld meriting isn't that bad.

Sure it sucks when you want lots and lots of xp in a hurry, but pld are very needed in HNMLS, and for all the menial tasks such as tigger hunting, HNM watching, they can make up xp in the long run, and do LS duty.

I think in the long run, get their fair share of things. You don't Lfg, you're already sorely in need in certain areas as it is.

A few things should be changed since the suddenly need for every 75 to merit, but I have yet to see a "boo-hoo is me" pld yet.

It's way more boo-hoo for jobs like drg, when is pretty much [I'm playing solo right now] in daily 75 life.

You know, the funny thing about PLDs being needed for HNM is that those PLDs usually use another job (like BRD, MNK, WAR, or NIN) to merit with, or the LS doesn't support them by meriting with them (not true in every case, but quite common).


Those are some good variations Macht. Celes' Runic would absorb the next spell cast by anyone (thus, the spell wouldn't do anything), and Celes would gain the MP cost of the spell.

Another idea that I've thought of for Utsusemi is adding a feedback effect to it. Utsusemi would operate as it does now, but if a shadow absorbed more than a certain amount of damage, the NIN would recieve feedback damage. The damage recieved as feedback damage would be based on Ninjitsu skill level and player defense/VIT. The Ninjitsu skill would determine how much damage each shadow could absorb. Something like 75-100% of Ninjitsu skill for Ichi, and 100% for Ni. So each shadow would have a 200-something point of feedback. Whatever damage occurs after the feedback point would be dealt as feedback damage to the NIN. I don't have time to write out some example numbers now, but it's a possible way to bring a little more balance. I'l post more after I get back from work.

[Hamlet]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

DD jobs get more invites than other jobs, but there are just so many of them. It's not because nobody wants to invite them, they're just so many that even though they get twice the invites of tanks and healers there are many left over. The most popular ones (WAR, MNK) get picked first while the rest seek for hours.

That's true, although I don't think War or Mnk gets a huge preference over the others in traditional parties. They usually get one DD and then try to find another that SCs well with that one.

The only way to solve the problem is to either remove a bunch of jobs form the game or stop playing DD.

Or, just get in a melee burn or start one up.

Here's the list of jobs and what slots they fill:

Support: RDM, bard, Cor
Tank: Pld, Nin
Main Healer: Whm, Smn, Rdm/whm maybe
DD: Sam, Drg, Thf, War, Blu, Drk, Rng, Mnk (sorry if I forgot any, gotta get ready for work)
Heavy DD: Blm or Rng sometimes

A traditional party needs all of these slots, so that only leaves one extra for a regular DD.

A 74+ melee burn eliminates the need for tank, main healer and heavy DD, so that frees up up to three more slots total for DDs.

[Maju]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Here's the list of jobs and what slots they fill:

Support: RDM, bard, Cor
Tank: Pld, Nin
Main Healer: Whm, Smn, Rdm/whm maybe
DD: Sam, Drg, Thf, War, Blu, Drk, Rng, Mnk (sorry if I forgot any, gotta get ready for work)
Heavy DD: Blm or Rng sometimes

A traditional party needs all of these slots, so that only leaves one extra for a regular DD.

A 74+ melee burn eliminates the need for tank, main healer and heavy DD, so that frees up up to three more slots total for DDs.

How are "Heavy DD" any different from DD? They certainly don't deal any more damage than DD. Just throw RNG and BLM to the DD category and it's fixed.

Also, RDM can main heal just fine unless you fight something that inflicts status ailments.

[Hamlet]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Well, blms are good for traditional parties because they depend on SCs and MBs for alot of their damage. Ranger is not really a good substitute for blm except in the lower lvls.