Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

[rsironko]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Perhaps they could make Paladin absorb all the damage when they block with the shield.

Dynamis Lord hits Ninja.
One of Ninja's shadows absorbs the damage.
Dynamis Lord hits Paladin.
*blocked with Shield*
Paladin takes 0 damage.

[Maju]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Perhaps they could make Paladin absorb all the damage when they block with the shield.

Dynamis Lord hits Ninja.
One of Ninja's shadows absorbs the damage.
Dynamis Lord hits Paladin.
*blocked with Shield*
Paladin takes 0 damage.

Unfortunately shield blocks don't happen even remotely as often as shadow blocks. Blocked attacks already deal very little damage so this change would be quite insignificant. It would also disturb shield balance since the more often blocking size 1 bucklers would suddenly become the best shields and the PLD and DRK only kite and tower shields would become the worst shield types.

[Aeni]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the VIT/Def component of the game system. PLDs still take far less damage, than say, for example, a DRK. You can see the dramatic difference in damage taken between the two job class, no matter how similarly geared you could make them, while both subbing WAR.

Changing the VIT/Def component of the system will raise serious issues about how balanced the game system is in the first place. You start to mess around on one end of the spectrum, you might just as well throw around a lead bar in a house of glass.

However, fixing one job's component is far easier to achieve and thus I feel that there should be changes made to the way utsusemi works. Personally, I think it's fine the way it is, but just changing the way spell is learned and reversing things a bit.

Utsusemi: Ichi
Level 15 NIN
4 copies that will draw attack away from caster.
45 second recast time.

Utsusemi: Ni
Level 40 NIN
3 copies that will draw attack away from caster.
30 second recast time.

Subbing for Utsusemi: Ichi will still give you 4 full shadows, but this is in exchange for losing one utsusemi tier on subjob. I think doing this will properly balance the mechanics of the game and provide just enough of an edge to make sure that players do not abuse this ability.

Failing this adjustment, however, might want to consider raising the recast timer on Utsusemi as an additional measure, especially in light of the abundance of haste gear you can equip as well as the availability of BRD songs and Haste spell.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

A lot of your changes would simply be too big of a deal for end-game, where PLD is fine. If anything, PLD/WAR or PLD/whatever, needs to get better because PLD/NIN is becoming the best tank.

[Maju]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

A lot of your changes would simply be too big of a deal for end-game, where PLD is fine. If anything, PLD/WAR or PLD/whatever, needs to get better because PLD/NIN is becoming the best tank.

PLD itself is not fine in end game. The fact that you had to sub NIN because the defense of your main job does jack shit to keep you alive is proof of that. Yes, PLD/NIN is sometimes preferred over NIN/WAR and NIN/DRK (Tiamat comes to mind from what people say), so yes, you could argue that PLD still is a powerful end game tank. However, when playing PLD/NIN to me it seems like the sub job has a more important role than the main job, which I think is ridiculous. The sub job is supposed to support the main job. For a PLD/NIN the vast majority of your damage mitigation comes from your sub job. If WAR/NIN could cast Flash, I bet they would be easily able to do a PLD/NIN's job.

[Raydeus]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I really wish people stopped talking about an Utsusemi nerf, what needs to be done is boost PLD's defensive abilities, not screw up all the other jobs. >.<


For instance give PLD a job trait that makes Shield tanking more efficient.

Giving a job trait to PLD where the def rating of the shield would turn into a Phalanx effect against both magic and physical (shield required) could work well to further reduce damage taken.

Say you are using a def 10 buckler, then you'd get a dmg -10 from the job trait, if you equip a shield like Palmerin (def 20) or Kaiser (def 23) you'll get a damage -20 / -23 effect. Aegis would give you a dmg -40 effect, but if you went through the work of getting such a shield you deserve to get that.


You know what I'm gonna make a question thread about this come to think of it.

[Awilo]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I simply say gives PLD a new special ability that would change everything like divine aura or something where everybody in party get defense boost from the paladin or healing hand (full hp recovery) once every 20 min or something or an increased defense against magical attack that would put the pld on top of the defensive tanks against any magical attacks.

[Macht]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I really wished people stopped talking about an Utsusemi nerf, what needs to be done is boost PLD's defensive abilities, not screw up all the other jobs. >.<


For instance give PLD a job trait that makes Shield tanking more efficient.

Giving a job trait to PLD where the def rating of the shield would turn into a Phalanx effect against both magic and physical (shield required) could work well to further reduce damage taken.

Say you are using a def 10 buckler, then you'd get a dmg -10 from the job trait, if you equip a shield like Palmerin (def 20) or Kaiser (def 23) you'll get a damage -20 / -23 effect. Aegis would give you a dmg -40 effect, but if you went through the work of getting such a shield you deserve to get that.


You know what I'm gonna make a question thread about this come to think of it.

Well the did introduce "Shield Mastery" as step towards what you are saying, and like I'm stating having NIN main job as a Tank is fine. However /NIN is just too powerful when almost every job can do /NIN and become mini-tanks, can't do anything near equal to that /PLD. It also doesn't make sense that DD could become a mini-tank that's off-balance.

Which is why I was stating what I was stating, it can be setup right that as long as the NIN has ninjutsu capped at their level then exp mobs will still be the same. However adjust it so that /NIN has 50% effecient, this would alter WAR/NIN to were to be more effective they'd need to invest in the defensive gear more (Exactly as a WAR should be doing if they are playing a defensive role).

Otherwise I'm just stating NIN as Main sure keep it how it is for them they are getting something of a cohesivness going were things that would beat the crap out of a NIN are better suited for PLDs to tank. If you want to throw a large group of NINs at it fine, but it would be more effective if a PLD took those ones.

Double Post Edited:

I simply say gives PLD a new special ability that would change everything like divine aura or something where everybody in party get defense boost from the paladin or healing hand (full hp recovery) once every 20 min or something or an increased defense against magical attack that would put the pld on top of the defensive tanks against any magical attacks.

PLD giving party a Defense Boost is called "Rampart". It's a decent boost almost negates the defense I loose from using Beserk. As far as the "healing hand" idea can we say EQ or Lineage II?

Sorry but the PLDs of FFXI are not exactly the same as the ones from those two. In those two PLDs carry a lot more on the spiritual side, the PLDs here bear more weight to the physical side. Healing Hands in FFXI's world is more like a WHMs job and they did introduce Martyr to cover that very thing.

I would say if you are going to add something to PLD make it be a slightly altered version of Celes' ability to absorb spells. Say while it's in effect any spell damage the PLD would of recieved instead are healed 20% of what the damage would of been or something.

So say the mob hits a PLD with a special attack or a spell, damage that would of been done is say 300. If it's an AoE the rest get hit like the would of in the situation, but PLD is healed 60 HP instead of getting hurt.

Just to kind of help support PLDs fitting at being superior to tanking mobs that spam a lot of attacks.

[Hamlet]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

However, fixing one job's component is far easier to achieve and thus I feel that there should be changes made to the way utsusemi works.

I suggested also changing ONE JOB'S coponent, namely pld. Job specific trait for them and them alone.

What your suggesting would obliterate melee burns (not just because of less shadows, but by not having another utsu to alternate with).

This also wouldn't help pld any, because if melee burns can't happen, people will still prefer a ninja tank over a pld tank.

[Stiker]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Perhaps they could make Paladin absorb all the damage when they block with the shield.

Dynamis Lord hits Ninja.
One of Ninja's shadows absorbs the damage.
Dynamis Lord hits Paladin.
*blocked with Shield*
Paladin takes 0 damage.

I almost feel this is what our shield needs to get back to. I realize that after the first shield patch, we block more often, but take partial damage. In turn this does allow us to take less damage than the old school way of the occassional block that takes down zero. Just imagine if our shields block zero once again, with all the new changes. Talk about a BIG change in the damage we take (plus the TP bonus we get, /drool).

If SE is scared of being that drastic, how about we tie our shield skill to the damage reduction. As we rise in level, the mobs hit harder, so in theory we should be able to block better right? From the way I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong please) our shields, depending on the type, block a set percentage range of the damage. Why keep this the same across all levels? A level 75 PLD should be able to use a shield more effectively than a level 20 PLD. And by more effectively, I don't simply mean block more often -- I believe that an increase in shield skill should also mean we learn how to block more damage as well.

If we do the above, we could theoritcally get to the point where we can occasionally negate damage all together with our shield. Maybe also at a certain shield skill level, we learn how to start blocking magic as well (a suggestion I placed earlier in the thread). SE was on the right step to level us out with NIN, and I think the focus should be on the use of our major skill, the shield, rather than nerfing utusemi.

[Zamphire]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I almost feel this is what our shield needs to get back to. I realize that after the first shield patch, we block more often, but take partial damage. In turn this does allow us to take less damage than the old school way of the occassional block that takes down zero. Just imagine if our shields block zero once again, with all the new changes. Talk about a BIG change in the damage we take (plus the TP bonus we get, /drool).

If SE is scared of being that drastic, how about we tie our shield skill to the damage reduction. As we rise in level, the mobs hit harder, so in theory we should be able to block better right? From the way I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong please) our shields, depending on the type, block a set percentage range of the damage. Why keep this the same across all levels? A level 75 PLD should be able to use a shield more effectively than a level 20 PLD. And by more effectively, I don't simply mean block more often -- I believe that an increase in shield skill should also mean we learn how to block more damage as well.

If we do the above, we could theoritcally get to the point where we can occasionally negate damage all together with our shield. Maybe also at a certain shield skill level, we learn how to start blocking magic as well (a suggestion I placed earlier in the thread). SE was on the right step to level us out with NIN, and I think the focus should be on the use of our major skill, the shield, rather than nerfing utusemi.

I think this is the best idea anyone in this thread has come up with.

Stop trying to kill /nin. There's nothing wrong with it. You can't even become a Mini tank until 74 and even then, you can't hold hate usually unless you're a WAR/NIN. And I'd still rather have a NIN/WAR or PLD then a WAR/NIN tank. You take away the second Uts and you're going to screw up RDM being able to solo almost anything at end game, you're going to screw up THF being able to solo effeciently. You're going to take away all the fun I have as a BRD/NIN soloing. Don't screw up every job just cuz you have a beef against one job.

Like I said, this idea is the best one I've heard so far. It doesn't hurt anyone, and it makes PLD a better tank.

[Raydeus]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Well the did introduce "Shield Mastery" as step towards what you are saying

Shield Mastery only gives extra TP but does nothing about damage taken sadly. We need something that helps PLD be as efficient as a NIN in terms of damage taken/down time.

and like I'm stating having NIN main job as a Tank is fine. However /NIN is just too powerful when almost every job can do /NIN and become mini-tanks, can't do anything near equal to that /PLD. It also doesn't make sense that DD could become a mini-tank that's off-balance.

Which is why I was stating what I was stating, it can be setup right that as long as the NIN has ninjutsu capped at their level then exp mobs will still be the same. However adjust it so that /NIN has 50% effecient, this would alter WAR/NIN to were to be more effective they'd need to invest in the defensive gear more (Exactly as a WAR should be doing if they are playing a defensive role).

Otherwise I'm just stating NIN as Main sure keep it how it is for them they are getting something of a cohesivness going were things that would beat the crap out of a NIN are better suited for PLDs to tank. If you want to throw a large group of NINs at it fine, but it would be more effective if a PLD took those ones.

There's nothing wrong with a WAR/NIN or any /NIN being a mini-tank, burn parties are a good thing because they allow many melee to get an xp party, if they get nerfed then you'll see all those melee looking for parties for days again.

Like I've said before, what is important is having options to be able to build a party with whatever jobs are looking.

If you have 10 melee and 3 nukers looking and only 2 tanks (1 nin and 1 pld) and only 2 support healer/support that would mean only one party would fly (PLD, support, healer, 3 DD). Wouldn't it be better if the rest could make a TP-burn party (with a NIN tank and the rest as /NIN and one support) instead of waiting for hours for for another healer to pop?

What is important is not getting rid of Utsusemi tanking, but making normal setups as efficient as burn parties so players have many more options while making parties. If you could build any type of party (burn, normal etc.) without thinking "this setup is better than this other" then people would spend a lot less time looking for parties.

[Macht]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I almost feel this is what our shield needs to get back to. I realize that after the first shield patch, we block more often, but take partial damage. In turn this does allow us to take less damage than the old school way of the occassional block that takes down zero. Just imagine if our shields block zero once again, with all the new changes. Talk about a BIG change in the damage we take (plus the TP bonus we get, /drool).

If SE is scared of being that drastic, how about we tie our shield skill to the damage reduction. As we rise in level, the mobs hit harder, so in theory we should be able to block better right? From the way I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong please) our shields, depending on the type, block a set percentage range of the damage. Why keep this the same across all levels? A level 75 PLD should be able to use a shield more effectively than a level 20 PLD. And by more effectively, I don't simply mean block more often -- I believe that an increase in shield skill should also mean we learn how to block more damage as well.

If we do the above, we could theoritcally get to the point where we can occasionally negate damage all together with our shield. Maybe also at a certain shield skill level, we learn how to start blocking magic as well (a suggestion I placed earlier in the thread). SE was on the right step to level us out with NIN, and I think the focus should be on the use of our major skill, the shield, rather than nerfing utusemi.

Only problem I see with this is that the only skill in using a shield really is getting it between you and the attack. It's not really exactly a deflecting because the brunt of the force is being transferred from the shield to your body. In the effect of reducing damage more tying to your STR and VIT makes more sense then skill, skill is mearly knowing were to get the shield to for the block.

So as far as skill increasing the frequency of your blocks makes sense, as far how well the shield guards I see tying that to STR and VIT to some degree making more sense. Though you have to remember not every shield should be equal in this matter, a small wooden shield isn't exactly going to block a good swift swing for a two handed axe (Especially a very large and very sharp one).

Double Post Edited:

Shield Mastery only gives extra TP but does nothing about damage taken sadly. We need something that helps PLD be as efficient as a NIN in terms of damage taken/down time.




There's nothing wrong with a WAR/NIN or any /NIN being a mini-tank, burn parties are a good thing because they allow many melee to get an xp party, if they get nerfed then you'll see all those melee looking for parties for days again.

Like I've said before, what is important is having options to be able to build a party with whatever jobs are looking.

If you have 10 melee and 3 nukers looking and only 2 tanks (1 nin and 1 pld) and only 2 support healer/support that would mean only one party would fly (PLD, support, healer, 3 DD). Wouldn't it be better if the rest could make a TP-burn party (with a NIN tank and the rest as /NIN and one support) instead of waiting for hours for for another healer to pop?

What is important is not getting rid of Utsusemi tanking, but making normal setups as efficient as burn parties so players have many more options while making parties. If you could build any type of party (burn, normal etc.) without thinking "this setup is better than this other" then people would spend a lot less time looking for parties.

Yes, Sheild Mastery is still an improvement to the shielding ability. Weather it improves your defending or not.

Problem is to many players force a dependancy on Utsusemi, I get utterly sick of players constantly asking if I have /NIN when I'm proving myself to be extreemly effective and contributing a huge amount to the group without /NIN. They are just to damn chicken and freak out when they see someone at half health from all the AoEs.

[Zamphire]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Only problem I see with this is that the only skill in using a shield really is getting it between you and the attack. It's not really exactly a deflecting because the brunt of the force is being transferred from the shield to your body. In the effect of reducing damage more tying to your STR and VIT makes more sense then skill, skill is mearly knowing were to get the shield to for the block.

So as far as skill increasing the frequency of your blocks makes sense, as far how well the shield guards I see tying that to STR and VIT to some degree making more sense. Though you have to remember not every shield should be equal in this matter, a small wooden shield isn't exactly going to block a good swift swing for a two handed axe (Especially a very large and very sharp one).

Then why does the damage your bullets do increase as your skills go up? When all you're really doing is just getting better at aiming. And STR actually effects the amount of damage you do with bullets as well, I mean, if a three year old pulls at a .35 and shoots you with it, it's gonna hurt just as much as if Chuck Norris shot you with it.

Point being, not everything in the game makes sense always. But this is a really good idea of how to balance things out.

[Stiker]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Only problem I see with this is that the only skill in using a shield really is getting it between you and the attack. It's not really exactly a deflecting because the brunt of the force is being transferred from the shield to your body. In the effect of reducing damage more tying to your STR and VIT makes more sense then skill, skill is mearly knowing were to get the shield to for the block.

So as far as skill increasing the frequency of your blocks makes sense, as far how well the shield guards I see tying that to STR and VIT to some degree making more sense. Though you have to remember not every shield should be equal in this matter, a small wooden shield isn't exactly going to block a good swift swing for a two handed axe (Especially a very large and very sharp one).

I do see how this makes sense. It still kinda goes along with my idea that a higher level PLD should be better at taking less damage with a shield block. Tying shield blocks to VIT would make a whole lot more sense.

I do think though that what you said about skill can lead to blocking magic. Since skill is realizing how to get yourself between the attack and yourself, the higher in skill you get, you should be able to learn how to do this with magic after a certain skill level.

And I also agree that the shield differenecs need to stay the same as they are now (as far as types go). No matter what changes (if any) SE makes to the shield, shield types should definitely have differences between them.