Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

[Stiker]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I'd definitely be all for VIT and DEF meaning quite a bit more. I'd also like to see us be able to take magic damage a bit better. As a PLD, it does frustrate me to see a normal hit take down one shadow and then see an AM spell only take one shadow down as well. I don't think Utsusemi should be nerfed though, espically since SE already did with every shadow down reducing enmity.

What I'd like to see is for PLDs to be able to have some way to combat magic damage. Maybe allow us to partially block magic with our shields. I mean if a shadow can take down both physical and magical damage why can't our shields? Also maybe make Invincible negate all magic damage as well (common how "Invincible" are we really when a mage can still take us out?). The damage magic causes is by far the largest unbalance between PLD and NIN tanking (or any /NIN job for that matter) that I see. I understand a -ga spell can take down all shadows, but honestly is Diaga and Flare on the same level?

If a PLD could take less magic damage in any way, I can see it leveling out the playing field a lot more. Doing so won't break NIN or Utsu in anyway, but will still help PLD out a lot.

[PTT]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

*edited down* What I'd like to see is for PLDs to be able to have some way to combat magic damage. Maybe allow us to partially block magic with our shields.
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The damage magic causes is by far the largest unbalance between PLD and NIN
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If a PLD could take less magic damage in any way, I can see it leveling out the playing field a lot more. Doing so won't break NIN or Utsu in anyway, but will still help PLD out a lot.

Well, there is one way. You're not going to like it, though.

Anyone care to help a brother PLD out on getting an Aegis shield started? -25% magic damage sounds pretty sweet. C'mon, it's only... carry the two, 17,500 pieces of various ancient currency. You jetsetting entrepreneurs must have that kind of scratch lying in your back pocket, right? ..... right? .... ;_;

in other news, yes, it's always bothered me that invincible does not block magic. We have essectially the same 2 hour ability as Thieves. Sure, thieves 'evade' the hits, and we 'roll with the punches' , but it's pretty much the same thing. A merit ability to add Magic invulnerability to Invincible would be nice for us, I think.

Other than what's been suggested here, I honestly can't think of anything else to suggest. Paladins are not a broken tank. We just need some better PR.

I propose a Telethon: Save the Tanks!

For just a minimal donation of 100,000 gil, you will receive absolutely free this "I covered the PLD!" commemorative tote bag!

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I played a paladin to 66 then retired it in frustration because I was starting to see the problem with invites dropping off which was only magnified because of my timezone. I levelled ninja to 75 and pretty much every day I played ninja I kept repeating, "This job is just too overpowered". Seriously, Utsusemi is as game breaking a device in FFXI as Complete Heal was to EQ. I understand the concept of it, multiple images of yourself confusing an opponent into hitting the wrong target. By that rationale, undead mobs and mobs that detect by sound should be able to ignore shadows and focus directly on the ninja. In addition, there would still be a chance the mob would hit you and not one of your shadows.

How to make the paladin an equal, if not preferred choice for tanking? I honestly think it would require changes not only to the paladin but to mobs in general. I'll throw out a couple of ideas which I'll no doubt get screamed at for:

i) increase mob DPS but reduce their HPs, they hit harder but die quicker. This way, using a defensive tank won't be seen as a way to cripple the xp/hour;
ii) to balance this allow the "Physical Defense Up" ability to mitigate a higher amount of damage;
iii) make Utsusemi: Ni level 44 thereby reducing TP burn parties and restoring endgame exp parties to some sense of balance as opposed to x4 warriors, x2 support;
iv) introduce a percentage chance of the mobs attacks completely bypassing shadows much the same way Blink operates.

[Maju]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

i) increase mob DPS but reduce their HPs, they hit harder but die quicker. This way, using a defensive tank won't be seen as a way to cripple the xp/hour;
ii) to balance this allow the "Physical Defense Up" ability to mitigate a higher amount of damage;

Simply increasing mob DPS won't do the trick because all the stronger hits will still strike shadows only. This would make NIN or /NIN even more desirable.

iii) make Utsusemi: Ni level 44 thereby reducing TP burn parties and restoring endgame exp parties to some sense of balance as opposed to x4 warriors, x2 support;

44 is fine, 38 is fine. I'd simply make Ni non-subbable. Nobody with any common sense can objectively look at merit TP burn parties and say it's working as intended. Otherwise we might as well have fast popping L85 mobs that instantly die when struck by a requiem song so we can have 6x BRD parties running around clearing the zone at 75k exp/h.

iv) introduce a percentage chance of the mobs attacks completely bypassing shadows much the same way Blink operates.

I wouldn't mind this but it might be a bit too much. NIN should not be able to take nearly zero damage while going all out in a DD setup and this could be a solution, though not a very good one in my opinion since I believe it could cause serious problems with strong HNMs.


Another thing I'd like to see is moving mob damage away from base damage and more into attack value. Currently it's ridiculously easy to cap defense against mobs so that additional defense doesn't reduce damage any further but the mob still hits you like a damn truck. Also, VIT needs a purpose.

[Raydeus]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I would definitely like seeing VIT and DEF having a greater impact on damage taken, and yep magic defense up would be a really good thing for PLD to have.

"Adjusting" Utsusemi even more is not an option though, please don't even think about that as a posible solution.

What's important is to make shadowless tanking as effective as Utsusemi tanking, so players can have different options to build parties with the jobs that are looking the moment you are building the party.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Simply increasing mob DPS won't do the trick because all the stronger hits will still strike shadows only. This would make NIN or /NIN even more desirable.

Not if the ninja shadows had a chance not to block the attack. In this case the stray one or two hits that get through could seriously lay the ninja flat on his back whilst paladins with their enhanced (point (ii)) ability to mitigate damage would presumably be a "safer" choice. Also, my points are to be taken as a whole, therefore, the issue with /Nin wouldn't be so problematic because Utsusemi: Ichi would only be available.

[Murphie]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

I really like your question of why Sound aggro mobs and Undead in general aren't able to bypass Utsusemi. Just based on the description that would make the most sense. I mean, this just means that parties would probably find something else to exp on, but it's still a really interesting question.

As unfortunate as it is, any discussion on how to make PLD a more viable and desired tank will always have to involve NIN, because NIN (and /NIN) is the whole reason that PLD isn't as desired anymore. The problem isn't hate control, it's just that taking no damage is better than taking reduced damage. As much as I think it would piss people off, bumping Utsu: Ni up a level or something similar may be what has to happen in order to really effect change.

[Jugil]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Simply increasing mob DPS won't do the trick because all the stronger hits will still strike shadows only. This would make NIN or /NIN even more desirable.

Not to be nit-picky XD, but I see DPS as a damage rate, and as such, there are two ways to increase this:

1.) Increasing the amount of damage done on each attack. This will effectively result in making NIN and /NIN more desirable.

or,
2.) Decreasing the delay between hits (I believe this is what Grizzlebeard was going for). True, this will result in PLD's taking more damage; but if mobs can eat through shadows, NIN will also take a beating (and probably more so than PLD).

Personally, I'm not to fond of this idea. It almost seems like it hurts all jobs.

I do, however, like some of the other ideas:
1.) Making Defense and VIT mean a little bit more than they do (especially for PLD).
2.) Ni level ninjitsu should be main only.
3.) Change Utsu to a probability based spell (like Blink), where 10-20% of the hits make it through to the NIN (they just might be scared to take a Flare if there's a 20% chance it will get through).

Another idea I was thinking of is to have the number of shadows taken down by a maneuver proportional to the damage [that would have been] inflicted to the target (obviously scaled based upon level or ninjitsu level). Thus, AM/specials would take down more shadows than a normal attack.

Inspired by this:

As a PLD, it does frustrate me to see a normal hit take down one shadow and then see an AM spell only take one shadow down as well.

[kuu]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Not to be nit-picky XD, but I see DPS as a damage rate, and as such, there are two ways to increase this:

1.) Increasing the amount of damage done on each attack. This will effectively result in making NIN and /NIN more desirable.

or,
2.) Decreasing the delay between hits (I believe this is what Grizzlebeard was going for). True, this will result in PLD's taking more damage; but if mobs can eat through shadows, NIN will also take a beating (and probably more so than PLD).

Personally, I'm not to fond of this idea. It almost seems like it hurts all jobs.

I do, however, like some of the other ideas:
1.) Making Defense and VIT mean a little bit more than they do (especially for PLD).
2.) Ni level ninjitsu should be main only.
3.) Change Utsu to a probability based spell (like Blink), where 10-20% of the hits make it through to the NIN (they just might be scared to take a Flare if there's a 20% chance it will get through).

Another idea I was thinking of is to have the number of shadows taken down by a maneuver proportional to the damage [that would have been] inflicted to the target (obviously scaled based upon level or ninjitsu level). Thus, AM/specials would take down more shadows than a normal attack.

Inspired by this:

That would weakrn nin to much.

Currently already is more or less balance except for vit/def tweaking.

Besides merit, monster vs shadows comes down to things that rape you and things that don't.

It's plain old strategy. The pld mentality shouldn't be "I can tank anything". That's just pompous.

/nin is a pretty much non issue here. Besides mnk and thf, almost no /nin class has the evasion skill to do any kind of useful tanking.

Between attacks and multi-shadow rape- and 1 less shadow of ni, it's pretty paper thin.

It's not like omgroXor, you can't kill me. It's more of a- get it off get it off!.

Most stuff has gotten pretty good at slicing through shadows these days anyway.

[Karinya]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Are you playing the same game as the rest of us?

PLD aren't thinking we can tank everything. We're struggling to find one or two things that we *can* tank as effectively as a NIN. When we do, the community's general response is "well, we'll fight something else that a NIN *can* tank, taking no damage and dealing 3x as much as you, so we get 10k/hr with them instead of 6k with you."

For this reason, reducing the DMG and delay of *some* monsters will not be a sufficient solution. As long as fighting NIN-friendly mobs with a NIN reliably produces much more exp per hour than fighting PLD-friendly mobs with a PLD, PLD will still not be wanted in exp/merit parties. Currently PLD-friendly mobs hardly even exist (monks and mandies are about it). The few mobs that are better tanked by PLD are terrible for exp value in general because of high HP and counter. Even if they weren't hitting back at all they'd still be worse exp than the typical NIN party's target.

If un-blink-tankable mobs existed and either had inherent exp bonus (like some sea mobs) or had unusually low def/eva/hp for their level (so they could be killed at least as fast even given the PLD's relative lack of damage), then they might be worth fighting even though a PLD tank means you have one less slot for DD (a NIN tank *is* a DD).


Until a PLD tank party (vs. mobs that are suitable for it) gets as much exp/hr as a NIN tank party or a no-tank /NIN party gets (vs. mobs suitable for those party types), PLD will remain unwanted in exp/merit situations. Whether that is best achieved by nerfing Utsusemi and tankless parties or by improving the value of DEF/VIT tanking is a decision for SE to make, but the current situation is clearly not balanced.

[Balodoth]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

It would be possible to maintain DPS from enemies while increasing the rate of attack, but in addition to eating through shadows quicker, it would also increase the rate of interrupted spells. PLD's advantage in such a situation could very well vanish.

One possibility would be to add a recast modifier for Utsu. The more frequently it is used, the higher the timer goes. It wouldn't be a drastic change, but over the course of several fights, the delay becomes more pronounced and the NIN or /NIN becomes a liability. Eventually healers become critical to Shadow parties. This lowers the damage output, further limiting the time until a rest is forced to regen MP and allow Utsu to cool down. After a while, people notice that the difference in party types is marginal if not negligible. NIN and /NIN becomes the preference for slow attack mobs and PLD becomes the preference for quick hitting mobs. Not much difference from now, but the line is moved back toward the center and is a little more blurred.

[Hamlet]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

The problem is that Ninja itself is pretty damn vulnerable without utsu, so if you nerf it at all, you run the risk of completely driving them out of tanking.

What's bad about my idea of giving pld a trait that makes their def more important?

For example (just an example, using simple numbers):

A pld would take 10 dmg per swing, adding up to 1,000 damage over a bunch of fights.

A ninja only gets hit 5 times over the same bunch of fights, but the total damage is 1,000.

In this scenario, both are equal as far as what they require to stay alive. Pld still holds the edge in hate management, encouraging heavier damage dealers to party with them, and Ninja still holds the edge in damage dealing, so you don't sacrifice a DD slot by having them tank, but people can't go as nuts as with a pld.

Why wouldn't that work?

[Maju]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

The problem is that Ninja itself is pretty damn vulnerable without utsu, so if you nerf it at all, you run the risk of completely driving them out of tanking.

What's bad about my idea of giving pld a trait that makes their def more important?

For example (just an example, using simple numbers):

A pld would take 10 dmg per swing, adding up to 1,000 damage over a bunch of fights.

A ninja only gets hit 5 times over the same bunch of fights, but the total damage is 1,000.

In this scenario, both are equal as far as what they require to stay alive. Pld still holds the edge in hate management, encouraging heavier damage dealers to party with them, and Ninja still holds the edge in damage dealing, so you don't sacrifice a DD slot by having them tank, but people can't go as nuts as with a pld.

Why wouldn't that work?

It wouldn't work because SE would have to change the entire damage formula if they want def to have a greater impact. They could simply lower mob base damage and increase atk value, however, I believe those are somehow tied to mob level.

Also, it would still not solve the problem of tankless parties who abuse /NIN to the max. Why have a PLD who takes 1000 damage when you can bounce the mob around and take 0 damage?

And even if we're looking at it from a NIN or PLD perspective only, people will still see it like this:

PLD deals low damage and takes damage.

NIN deals higher damage and takes no damage. If they do get hit it's simply a case of bad luck or a bad nin.

Healers like to slack off. They've become so spoiled by NINs that they prefer to not heal at all even though their primary role is to (gasp) heal the tank.

[Macht]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

Yeah, the Utsusemi as /NIN is still quite powerfull. Can't believe I'm going to use this source for an example but it's the best I can think of. Naruto goes pretty extensive in the use of Utsusemi "Shadow Clone", the thing they show is that an unskilled user can't make clones that are completly identical hence making possible to identify the real out of the fakes. Not to mention though that in Naruto the less effecient Ninja's when the real is struck they would loose focus of their Chakra and the other "Shadow Clones" would vanish.

There is so many different ways you could go about doing that, so I agree that some sort of measure to Utsusemi on what chance the mob has to hitting the actual depending on skill should be there. Though I would add that if they are /NIN and get struck all Shadows should be lost.

[Hamlet]

Re: Status of the Balance of Defense-centered Jobs

It wouldn't work because SE would have to change the entire damage formula if they want def to have a greater impact.

I didn't say change the formula, I said give plds a job-specific trait that made their defense more powerful (i.e. meaninful). This would be something along the lines of 1 phalanx-like dmg reduction point per whatever defense.

It's not going to get them invited to melee burns to tank (although I've heard good things about pld/nin, and melee burns can't really have a tank anyway- I imagine even a pld would have trouble holding hate with 4 other maxed out melees with all their best abilities and gear), but in parties where you want a dedicated tanker, it would work. The reason is because of what I stated later on in my post. With a pld, other DDs are more free to let go and do super heavy damage, whereas with a ninja, although the ninja itself does good damage, they have to hold back.

There's 2 different issues. One is that pld can't deal damage (but that's how the job is designed and I don't think that should change), and two is that pld takes too much damage compared to nin (this SHOULD change, because pld was designed to be the #1 tank)