Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Warriors used to be nothing. Perceived as not a great tank, and not a great DD. When it was discovered how nuts war/nin damage output could be while not having to worry about retaliation, the "zomg /nin = double damage" ideas running rampant; the desire to be the awesome DD attracted just that: people who wanted to be top dog DD. Not people who want to work extra hard coordinating their [ignorant, prejudice] party to put forth the extra effort to help them tank just as well as a PLD or NIN.

It's pretty simple why Warriors went the way of the DD.

Red Mages could perform many roles, including main heal. When you can do multiple things, you always end up doing what's needed most, most often.

Blue mages knew from the get-go. If they start doing "support-y" things, it's all they'll do.

And there's my anecdotal view of the world.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

For some reason this argument is starting to remind me of the issues I've had with people who couldn't understand me refusing to party with a PL...

There are two conflicting interests being expressed here. One is the powerful short-term interest in making the opportunity you have work. Another is the more abstract long-term interest in discouraging the predominance of short-term solutions that narrow a particular job's role and may leave a player unprepared to do anything else. (There's an obvious third interest of "how can I get xp faster?" but I don't think I need to address that here.)

When a BLM/WHM needs to take on a support role to cope with emergencies or the inability of a party to find a rep, in say 1 out of 10 parties, that teaches them about being versatile in their job/subjob to cope with a situation that needs it. If they're being asked to main heal in 9 out of 10 parties because people do not recognize or value their ability to do anything else, that's a very different situation which is likely going to give them a very skewed perception of their own capabilities. Given that the only real argument against powerleveling parties at any level it's viable is that it interferes with that party's member's ability to learn their jobs, is it so surprising that there would be similar resistance when party after party only wants a job for one role, particularly one that they're merely capable of rather than designed for?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

. . .

Red Mages could perform many roles, including main heal. When you can do multiple things, you always end up doing what's needed most, most often.

Blue mages knew from the get-go. If they start doing "support-y" things, it's all they'll do.

And there's my anecdotal view of the world.

Dude, anecdotal or not, you are SO sig'd! Quoted for SO much truth!

[Vyuru]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

The fact that you solo tanked Raptors on a War with no PT deaths and positive EXP gain is something to be proud of, and despite complaints about desiring another class to fill the role, the PT should have at least made not of your ability to do the job right.

I solo tanked Raptors as drg/war with no party deaths besides when the ninja tried to tank :P

Frankly I still haven't figured out how that worked >.>

The "versatility" you're demanding that BLM embrace is the "versatility" to fall into the same ghetto as SMN -- being invited for their subjob, at the expense of what the job they actually chose to play can do.

Statements like this bug me a little (no offense, what you say is very true, but still....)

I expect people to play their best for exp and to do what is needed for the exp parties. If the Blm is needed in more of a healing role then yes, I think that they should step up to the plate.

To be brutally honest, I tend to think that most Blm should go blm/rdm once they can gain Dispel from /rdm. I have seen perhaps only a handfull of blm use their /whm spells from lvls 60-71, and that's a long, long time exping. Quite frankly the best blm I have partied with lately have used Stun almost as much as they nuked to handle the fire crawlers in particular, that was freaking awesome and those blm undoubtedly saved the life of our tanks many times because of that. Dispel, as far as I have been able to tell, cannot be resisted on exp style mobs. I can dispel T mobs as drg/rdm, I can dispel Imps in the Mire as a lvl 43 rdm, the only time I have ever seen dispel resisted was by summons who are immune to all magic except their own element. Now with that assumption, yes I do think that /rdm is the best option for blm later on because I view blm as taking on more of a support/modest DD, especially in ToAU camps, and in any camp vs T- low VT mobs. Most of the parties I make are Drg/sam, Thf, drk/sam or sam, pld or nin, and whm and smn. Many of my parties have alot of MB potential because I still build them around what jobs I skillchain well with, so frankly I have no problem if the blm just Magic Bursts off the SC because we have so many of them.

I realise that this is only how I build parties, other people like other things, but I expect blm to do what is best for the party, and in such a party I do NOT think that chainspell nuking is the best thing for the party. Which, is why most of the time I invite a summoner besides just liking the class. Summoners offer the perfect balance between backup healing, support, and DDing, and it's fun in addition to being a treat to watch them go all out like they were meant to.

Regardless of anything, I expect party members to use their job AND their subjob to their fullest potential, if you aren't you may as well have never unlocked the subjob quest, and I consider you to be about as gimped as if you had no subjob.

Now would I go and build a party specifically around a blm main healer? No. But I have no problem asking a blm to mainly stick to MBing, the occasional nuke/dispel depending on sub, and the occasional backup healing.

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

(There's an obvious third interest of "how can I get xp faster?" but I don't think I need to address that here.)

I think you may be downplaying the role of this 3rd interest quite a bit. I know you were trying to work with as few variables as possible, but it truly is the case that my friend (who's the best BLU I've ever met) will bring his Bard to a party that already has a bard in it because he feels 2x bards is better than brd+blu.

There are people unwilling to let a THF into a melee burn party because they cannot trust their exp/hour.

People don't 2 merits in an hour. Anything less, and they should've been spending this time crafting instead.

Btw, I did a party against Eruca once with a smn/rdm as our only dispeller. She got resisted 5-10% of the time with half skill. Yeah, it's that good. I've often thought whm/rdm 64+ would be a very good idea. But around the time I thought about pressing the concept, everyone stopped inviting WHMs... :(

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I always put {main} {heal!} {no thanks} in my search comment.
By asking for me to party with that there, they acknowledge what I'm not there for.

(You shouldn't use â—€mainâ–¶; it's an equipment slot, and doesn't have the meaning of "primary" in Japanese.)

The party should make it clear they want you to go against your inclination before inviting you. If they did not, then, you are free to leave once you find out.

* * *

I don't like to be replacement; I say so in my search comment. If asked by people out in the field, I usually ask if I'm a replacement for someone, then politely decline if that's the intention.

However, I don't go around and insult other RDMs who would take replacement slots for putting the wrong expectations out there that parties should replace people with no limitations--or worse, ask me to do that.

* * *

Well lucky you, your server must be filled with more mages than where I'm at.

I've once blindly stumbled into a 5+1 party in the Mire (as RDM73?), and the party came close to wiping too many times. (It's insane to pull a fly with only RDM/WHM for healer, much less when he's at less than 1/3 MP.)

After that, when an NA leader sends an invite, I always ask "Am I'm the only mage?". If the party isn't full already, that'd be a hint to the leader that I'm not comfortable being the only mage. If it is full and I'm the only mage, then I double check to make sure I have RR items and an extra Hi-Ether for emergency--or I just decline the invitation.

Not sure why, but the vast majority of the time I've asked, the answer had been "Nope. We have a ____ ."

[Vyuru]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Btw, I did a party against Eruca once with a smn/rdm as our only dispeller. She got resisted 5-10% of the time with half skill. Yeah, it's that good. I've often thought whm/rdm 64+ would be a very good idea. But around the time I thought about pressing the concept, everyone stopped inviting WHMs... :(

Really? I'm curious as to how this works now because like I said, I have never seen a dispel resisted except on summons.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

When it was discovered how nuts war/nin damage output could be while not having to worry about retaliation, the "zomg /nin = double damage" ideas running rampant; the desire to be the awesome DD attracted just that: people who wanted to be top dog DD. Not people who want to work extra hard coordinating their [ignorant, prejudice] party to put forth the extra effort to help them tank just as well as a PLD or NIN.

Whatever the trends and attitudes may be for any job or party setup, I still don't see that as a justifiable excuse to not be prepared for a role your job can offer.

WHMs don't want to cure a WAR tank? Boo Hoo, they shouldn't have taken the invite - do everything you can to support him if you want EXP in that PT, otherwise go back to seeking.

While I loathe the endgame content RoZ brought us, I do miss the level of elitism the game had back during that time and CoP. People actually made the effort to prepare their jobs for most contingencies so they could always capitalize on every EXP opportunity. ToA has spoiled players rotten and they don't even make a 10th of that effort now.

The jobs with lesser invites also usually put forth a stronger effort. I've known very few THFs that were low-quality players. I know PUPs that try to cover every angle.

Most people just seem to bank on the name of their jobs, which is why I find WARs, RDMs and BRDs to be disgusting in general for their lack of effort. I already ranted about CORs this week, I won't even go into that again. Support roles and popular roles are not a license to play gimped.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Whatever the trends and attitudes may be for any job or party setup, I still don't see that as a justifiable excuse not to be prepared for a role your job can offer.

This may be taking a good idea to the extreme and turn it into a bad idea. RDM can be the main healer, but Akashimo doesn't want to be one--that should be perfectly fine. If a WAR doesn't want to tank, he shouldn't have to. After all, we know RDM can tank, but we wouldn't expect most of the LFG RDMs to have the gears and macros set up for it, so the same goes for WARs these days.

There should be a balance between the desires of the individuals and the community. Once you accept an invite and the role you're invited for, you're obligated to tailor your play style for the maximum benefit of the party. Just that you're always free to decline invitation for roles you're not interested in.

Of course, just as one party may decide to pass over a RDM who refuses to main heal, another in desperate need of a tank may decide to pass over WARs who aren't set up for it and go to a SAM willing to experiment and have some gears to try.

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I honestly do which they improve the search function so that headaches like these would decline sharply like a nail to the head. Its probally the reason we all are complaining/talking on here at this point because how limited search is, makes it harder for us to set ourselves open to a group and get playing styles messages across in a pointblank range with no second guessing. That's just me or the gummy bears with iced tea kicking in.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

This may be taking a good idea to the extreme and turn it into a bad idea. RDM can be the main healer, but Akashimo doesn't want to be one--that should be perfectly fine. If a WAR doesn't want to tank, he shouldn't have to. After all, we know RDM can tank, but we wouldn't expect most of the LFG RDMs to have the gears and macros set up for it, so the same goes for WARs these days.

And Akashimo specifies as such in his comment, which is all well and good until you're the only possible, viable healer seeking. After that point, its an annoyance to PT leaders and seen as being a primadonna. RDMs know they can hold out and get what they want (well, until the 70s, anyway, the pimp hype caught up with RDM), melees don't have that advantage in their favor.

I didn't like main healing on RDM, but I can and still do it if I find myself in that role and that is what's needed. I still enfeeble, though. I dusted off RDM this week to do Ouryu, I was the main healer. Its like riding a bicycle, not really something one forgets. Its a really draining bicycle, but do you think tanking or pulling aren't?

I don't like pulling on Corsair, but I have /NIN, a low delay gun, loads of light cards, a nice AGI build and a complete disregard for my EXP. I will scare away a manteele BRD if I have to. I'm not gonna sit there and grumble about not having AoE sleep and not having Haste buff, I put on the Swift Belt, the whalra turban and I get to pulling.

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

No matter how "elite" it became during RoZ, I was still the only Warrior that I knew that carried defense and offense swaps. Any "pure" DD job certainly didn't use swaps of any sort. So in that regard, I don't think we've fallen so far since AU.

The fact that I explained the phenomena in no way meant that I condone it. I tell it like it is (or as I see, as I tagged at the bottom of the post). Not how I wish it were.

But while I'm on the subject. We want:

Warrior
-to come equipped with multiple capped weapons for SC options.
-willingness to take one for the team (Shield Break)
-gear to tank
-reason to tank some of the time. But also DD often. And incentive to enjoy both roles.

Red Mage
-reason to enfeeble.
-reason to nuke occasionally?
-reason to melee occasionally?
-incentive to main heal sometimes, without it becoming their full time job.

Blue Mage
-reason to do everything their job has to offer instead of DD spell spam. Method to keep them from adopting full time support role.

---------

Noticing a trend? A method for "hybrid" jobs to stay hybrids. Something that prevents the player base from doing what humans naturally do -- value specialization. Red Mage: the Christopher Walken of mages.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Don't forget

Summoner
-reason to invite to a party without /whm

[Nataka]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Blue mages dont debuff? Really? XD But their debuffs do damage!

The only reason I can think of them not doing that is MP shortage...I mean, I have had bards in parties that just COMPLAIN the entire time they have to ballad a blue mage, even if he's trying to be good and go near the mages when it happens.

But then again perhaps I just have a different idea for blue mage then most people do. In my vision I wanna be a melee mage, and when I say that I want to be someone that can deal a good amount of damage while throwing out debuffs and saving party members from death when I can. That and fill roles that are absent in the party. :)

But i can understand why people might not want this, 'cause they have a different vision of the job and want to adapt it to that.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Actually, it would be nice if SMN has other support job options. If that doesn't involve significant nerfing of /WHM, it'd be great. Scholar, perhaps? There may be more possibility with /PUP as well, but I don't know PUP well enough to say for sure.

* * *

Oddly enough, most BLUs I've seen who do great damage also do more than just DD; they DD, but also debuff, and/or TA the tank, and/or toss out Magic Fruit.

* * *

I've been thinking more and more about WHM meleeing, Lv.43+; Stoneskin and Blink to absorb damage AoE's, B+ Club skill, and Moonlight for MP restore--might work out very nicely for a MP using front line.

Not going to work with all critters (darn you, Imps!) or all party setups, but WHM's DD output can good enough to justify feeding (more) TP to the critters, especially so if the likes of PLD, BLU, and DRK can get good chunk of MP out of the effort.

The added bonus is that it'd be easier to apply group buffs, too, since the WHM will be right where those who need buffs are. The bad thing is giving up Light Staff for Cures, but considering 40 MP extra for PLD is practically a Cure III saved, that may not be as bad of a deal as it sounds.