Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Feba]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Try checking the bottom of the previous page, and you'll see what I mean.

No, no I really don't.

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Then how come no one invited them for... oh... from FFXI to Chains of Promathia?
It took an expansion for this job to get invites, not a job adjustment. What does that tell you about MNK?

That not-so-bright people overvalue spike damage and don't pay attention to the regular hits every round that add up to more damage over the course of the whole fight?

But I already knew that. Lots of people are stupid. Film at 11.

(Although you're exaggerating, anyway. KRT roaming monk parties have been around pretty much ever since they added the high-level part of KRT, which I think was around the introduction of G5.)

I don't think there has ever been a time in FFXI's history when monks were genuinely not effective. They were underappreciated for a while. That's not really something that requires rebalancing, just smarter players.


WHMs are marginalized because they really, genuinely don't bring much to the party that a RDM/WHM couldn't do, while also refreshing himself (and inviting both depresses your kill rate too much while having no offsetting benefit vs. wimpy mobs). That's a genuine balance problem that SE needs to address, before all the white mages retire to other jobs and we all have to take R1 at every endgame event. (If *that* doesn't make you care about the problems with WHM, nothing will. :) )

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Only thing keeping me using whm is the fact i got reverend mail, hexa, black halo, and capped club. <_< Only fun i get since exp always sucks since majority of my parties are 5/1 -.-;

[Mhurron]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

-Mhurron, as usual I'm not sure if you're purposely missing my point to be snide or if I didn't do a good enough job of explaining. I don't think Malacite's example was the best with sam/blm. But the point is, there are a lot of things that can be done, but not a lot of incentive for players to try them when they will always gravitate towards what they know works.

You did a horrible job of explaining it by comparing something that can be done to something that can't.

Players don't gravitate to what works (PLD, BLM, RDM, DRK, WHM, MNK works in Promyvion battles) but to what is easiest and fastest with the least risk (6x SMN in Promivion for instance). Either way, what the players choose to do is not something SE can fix. It is not a game mechanics issue. It is the personality of the players.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Then how come no one invited them for... oh... from FFXI to Chains of Promathia?

It took an expansion for this job to get invites, not a job adjustment. What does that tell you about MNK?

Was the same with WAR post-37. And 2 handed jobs TP just fine.

WAR has Double Attack. SAM has... well, it's SAM. DRK has Absorb-TP. DRG has Jump and High Jump. If you can't get TP fast enough in a burn setting, it's not the job that's the problem, it's you.

[Ziero]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

So I read through this topic, was gonna quote and comment and snip and quip about so many other poster's comments, when suddenly the true answer just hit me.

You can't fix stupid

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I don't think there has ever been a time in FFXI's history when monks were genuinely not effective. They were underappreciated for a while. That's not really something that requires rebalancing, just smarter players.

This.

WHMs are marginalized because they really, genuinely don't bring much to the party that a RDM/WHM couldn't do, while also refreshing himself (and inviting both depresses your kill rate too much while having no offsetting benefit vs. wimpy mobs). That's a genuine balance problem that SE needs to address, before all the white mages retire to other jobs and we all have to take R1 at every endgame event. (If *that* doesn't make you care about the problems with WHM, nothing will. :) )

And then this.

Can't say I follow your logic. So MNK wasn't a victim of the trends and its working just fine, yet WHM is. You're really gonna have to make this a good one because the exact same thing can be said of WHM

In standard IT++ PTs WHM was a fixture and RDM was not preferred for main healing. Additionally, most PTs wanted a BLM in their ranks. Oh, and they actually did skillchains in these PTs.

ToA comes and that changes. MNK magically becomes awesome and MNKs wonder why people didn't realize it before. WHM doesn't get meritted with so WHMs become more spare at endgame. Shocker.

I shouldn't have to explain HNMLS morale. If you want to keep your WHMs, you MERIT with your WHMs because endgame doesn't offer them as much to start with. If you want RNGs and PLDs, you MERIT with them. If you play into the snotty, elitist burn setups, expect to lose critical roles to LSes that will take the time to level with these jobs.

The team that plays together, stays together.

As for R1, cap your damn EXP, suck it up and take R1s. I don't care if your LS does have WHMs, if that BRD, BLM or RDM tosses you a R1, you take it. If you have an HNM or what have you tearing your group up and need to recover, recovery is all that matters, paltry EXP losses do not. If you delevel and lose all your nifty merit abilities and stats - that's your problem, take one for the team. Cap your EXP the next time you merit.

[Feba]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

This.

I still don't understand that.


/Also, have you been posting where I think you've been posting.

[tdh]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I think people focus too much on the level 70 BPs. What a lot of people seem to ignore about SMN is that the lower level BPs keep gaining in power as the avatars level with you - but they don't gain in MP cost. This makes them almost ridiculously MP efficient. If Predator Claws costs too much, throw some Tail Whips or Double Punches for 500 - practically free.

I've never seen this tested, but I'll be surprised if two Tail Whips or Double Punches would out damage a Predator Claw. Also factor in that they have to wait roughly a minute to use another one, the mob may be dead and that 500dmg may come from somebody else just as easily.

As DRG/SAM, I've never had a problem with TP gain - I gain TP faster than anyone but full SAMs. But then I have to wait for WS until I have a hate reducer ready or the mob is about to die. More TP gain wouldn't really help me much at all. (I don't have Seigan yet, so it's not an option.)

Sword Grip is "counterproductive" the same way DW and Suppa are counterproductive. I don't see NINs and WAR/NINs rushing to throw away their DW gear, because while it has zero effect on TP gain, it has significant effect on DoT which makes up most of your damage.

Fortunately, these days all jobs have a TP "gimmick" and not just a small handful of them. A means to make up for a miss, or to build faster.

WAR - Double Attack
MNK - Kick Attacks
DRG - Jumps
DRK - Abs-TP
THF - Triple Attack
SAM - lol

Amnesia hurts just about all of those, but Abs-TP isn't worth the MP vs Imps. Move to another of the only acceptable camps, and everybody keeps their Job ablitities and traits, but DRK loses Abs-TP. So the answer to that is DLY-3%? Nevermind that 3% really equates out to nothing, why use that when there are better options. Which is what I stated earlier.

Anyway, if you're not using Hasso, you have little grounds to complain that you don't have enough Haste to keep up in TP. Throw away 10% haste (that *doesn't* reduce your TP gain per hit) and +10 acc that takes up 0 inv slots, and then act surprised when you don't measure up?

You're either not reading the entire post, or ignoring parts of it.

Part of the reason why /SAM has become more and more popular in Merit parties is because of it's ability to mitigate damage. Yes, the Haste/Acc/STR bonus is nice, but you have to find a happy medium for the party. As a 2 hander accuracy isn't an issue, as a DRK STR isn't an issue, but even before the update when a DRK could find a party damage wasn't a problem - damage taken & MP consumption was.

Take a standard party post Lv.70 where you have a PLD who Provokes and Flashes and that's it (More and more PLDs seem to be carrying all that MP around for looks.), a NIN that Provokes at the start and just keeps up shadows for themselves, so the heavy hitters are tanking. Some of these guys have no DEF because they piled on attack or accuracy and take 180+ dmg a pop. Next thing you know, what poor non-WHM mage that got pushed into main healing is having to dump several Cure IIIs on one or more non-tanking melee to keep going. This slows down progress as we're still limited by out MP pool. Because of this, some of us have decided that it's better for the overall group to use 3rd Eye/Seigan nearly full time.

I could easily go Hasso full time, die more, slow down EXP parties, and as somebody mentioned previously nobody invites the job because they're becoming increasingly selfish.

I don't think it was good at all. It was laziness. They'd rather sit around lfp DD only than get the gear and food to fill the role that needed to be filled. And the community rewarded that by accepting them as DDs and leaving other jobs - that couldn't tank if they tried - out.
Sure it's work to tank. And work to maintain two sets of gear for two different party roles. Nobody knows that better than a post-ToAU PLD. But if you'd rather get exp than sit in Whitegate, *do what the party needs you to do*.

I'll give you that part of it was lazy. Nobody, outside of a few jobs, wants/has to carry around gear for multiple roles in a party setting, but this wasn't completely on the WAR. Part of this push was by the rest of the community. Take a look at 5 possible tanking jobs.

PLD - From day 1, build to be a tank.
NIN - User base pushed into a tank, and it works well, requires some work.
WAR - They have 1 DEF bonus and Provoke.
SAM - Good Evasion, good HP, great Parry.
BLU - Defensive spells, some fast casting spells, healing spells.

But those pros for the later three don't make them acceptable tanks. There are different caliber players out there. A middle of the road PLD that we wouldn't call great, but not horrible can be a proficient tank. NIN with decent gear that can be purchased, the ability to count shadows, and support from the party can tank. In order for a WAR to be the same tank, they'd have to have exceptional gear, skill, and probably Merits from other jobs. With SAMs two new job abilities they could possibly step up and tank, and I've jumped up to do it in Merit parties, but depending on the mob it required a lot of extra evasion gear that eliminates the use of attack usually and mage support. With Cocoon BLU can greatly limit the damage they take, they can toss out some pretty substantial healing spells, and have other hate generating spells.

How did the community handle the issue of limited NINs & PLDs? They got rid of them. They just found melee that had a means to avoid some hits and mobs that have low HP.

Similar remarks apply to DDBLU. Play your *whole* job - if I want someone who just hits things, I'll invite a monk.

The play your whole job is part of what we're asking for. But a main healing BLU isn't the whole job. Main healing RDM or BLU isn't the whole job. I've seen quite a few BLUs who are front line and help out in healing situations. I've seen BLUs spend more MP on PLDs than the PLD spent on themselves.

That not-so-bright people overvalue spike damage and don't pay attention to the regular hits every round that add up to more damage over the course of the whole fight?
But I already knew that. Lots of people are stupid. Film at 11.
(Although you're exaggerating, anyway. KRT roaming monk parties have been around pretty much ever since they added the high-level part of KRT, which I think was around the introduction of G5.)

~This~ is what I said.

When does the KRT First Burn start? Lv.70. What happens the previous the 60 levels of parties?

So I read through this topic, was gonna quote and comment and snip and quip about so many other poster's comments, when suddenly the true answer just hit me.
You can't fix stupid

Meh, you can fix stupid, it just requires repeated murder.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

/Also, have you been posting where I think you've been posting.

Where do you think I've been posting? Between here and LBR, I don't post much elsewhere anymore. I had maybe a couple posts on Alla in the last two months and KI I've not returned to since leaving Titan. I've not posted on BG in roughly a year and my postcount is a whopping, singular post - though BRP is fond of talking about me there. I feel if I browse any of those three other forums too long, I'll get infected with something.

I'll just stick to this one and LBR. The other forums are for browsing recent update info and results, which means I can just turn to a wiki shortly after.

[711rocks]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

This.
As for R1, cap your damn EXP, suck it up and take R1s. I don't care if your LS does have WHMs, if that BRD, BLM or RDM tosses you a R1, you take it. If you have an HNM or what have you tearing your group up and need to recover, recovery is all that matters, paltry EXP losses do not. If you delevel and lose all your nifty merit abilities and stats - that's your problem, take one for the team. Cap your EXP the next time you merit.

i agreed with the rest of what she said but this part in particular is annoying
every ls event we have there are always like 5 people who delevel to 74
then bitch that then need r3 to get their level back
orz
just joined besieged or solo lesser colibri if you really don't want to waste your merit time

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I'll give you that part of it was lazy. Nobody, outside of a few jobs, wants/has to carry around gear for multiple roles in a party setting, but this wasn't completely on the WAR. Part of this push was by the rest of the community. Take a look at 5 possible tanking jobs.

PLD - From day 1, build to be a tank.
NIN - User base pushed into a tank, and it works well, requires some work.
WAR - They have 1 DEF bonus and Provoke.
SAM - Good Evasion, good HP, great Parry.
BLU - Defensive spells, some fast casting spells, healing spells.

NIN has same base Parrying as SAM, and SAM has same evasion as MNK. MNK/NIN has been known to tank, often with Trick Attack help--though not sure how that's working out in the post two-handed update era. A WAR who wants to tank also has attack output, Warcry, and a bit of Shield skill (C+) at his disposal.

THFs have been using TA to make each tank in "Dagger Burn" parties for a very long time, even if those parties are relatively rare. A few brave PUPs have been tanking on /WAR, using Automaton as healing aid.

How did the community handle the issue of limited NINs & PLDs? They got rid of them. They just found melee that had a means to avoid some hits and mobs that have low HP.

And, those mitigation tricks are only possible because S-E made them so, same with the low HP monsters. That is why some of us been repeating that the game balance problem have been making the game less fun.

When does the KRT First Burn start? Lv.70. What happens the previous the 60 levels of parties?

Those who use parsers knew for a long time that low level THF/MNKs (Lv.15+) using Hand-to-Hand can do better damage than MNKs; MNKs' output is low until maybe Lv.30+, but at least they were good for making Fusion with PLD tanks back in the SC+MB times.

By Lv.50's, though, they regularly take the monster away from PLDs (if not for very long). MNKs, in my view, was never bad, but its output starts low, and grows slowly, but never stops--until it becomes a DD machine which makes every tank wary. I'm not sure about the rest of the population, but tanks and healers are very sensitive to the DDs' output, and I'm sure they've noticed MNKs for a very long time.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

No, no I really don't.

Never mind, then.

You can't fix stupid

Quoted for truth. In fact, I'm stuffing this in to my sig.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

By Lv.50's, though, they regularly take the monster away from PLDs (if not for very long). MNKs, in my view, was never bad, but its output starts low, and grows slowly, but never stops--until it becomes a DD machine which makes every tank wary.

Welcome to the standard for MNK in every RPG since it's inception in Dungeons and Dragons.

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I've never seen this tested, but I'll be surprised if two Tail Whips or Double Punches would out damage a Predator Claw. Also factor in that they have to wait roughly a minute to use another one, the mob may be dead and that 500dmg may come from somebody else just as easily.

But there *are* alternatives between "do nothing but cure" and "blow all your MP on Predator Claw". I think too many people think it's Lv65+ BPs or nothing, and so if you have too many other duties to spam Lv65+ BPs, you're "not being a real SMN". Bull. Anyone who's played FFIV, V, IX, X, Tactics or Tactics Advance knows that summoners don't always summon every round. I don't think there's ever been an FF game where spamming expensive summons was a good idea outside of a few boss fights.

PLD - From day 1, build to be a tank.
NIN - User base pushed into a tank, and it works well, requires some work.
WAR - They have 1 DEF bonus and Provoke.
SAM - Good Evasion, good HP, great Parry.
BLU - Defensive spells, some fast casting spells, healing spells.

You are very badly underselling WAR. Provoke is huge - every other tank subs WAR primarily to get it. WAR have provoke *and* free choice of subjob. But in addition they also have the second-best shield skill in the game, high HP and VIT, and access to most of the same armor PLD has (and some that's even better than PLD's). At the same time, higher STR, attack bonus and a higher DMG weapon category with better WS (axes) keep their damage output (and therefore hate from damage) superior to PLD's even with the same gear otherwise.

They can't heal themselves (except as /BLU and then it's tricky). But they can easily *take* the same or less damage as a PLD while *dealing* noticeably more, as either /MNK or /BLU.

With Cocoon BLU can greatly limit the damage they take, they can toss out some pretty substantial healing spells, and have other hate generating spells.

You don't say why this doesn't make them "acceptable" tanks. IMO the main reason BLU aren't accepted as tanks is that most of them don't want to try.

How did the community handle the issue of limited NINs & PLDs? They got rid of them. They just found melee that had a means to avoid some hits and mobs that have low HP.

Yes - this is one of the problems SE should fix, because players can't fix it ourselves. That party style is effective - vastly more effective than any other - and therefore *too* effective for the game as a whole to be balanced. Players find (some of the) effective strategies in the game; it's SE that makes the rules that determine which strategies are effective in the first place.

The play your whole job is part of what we're asking for. But a main healing BLU isn't the whole job. Main healing RDM or BLU isn't the whole job. I've seen quite a few BLUs who are front line and help out in healing situations. I've seen BLUs spend more MP on PLDs than the PLD spent on themselves.

Main healing in every party isn't the whole job. Main healing in some parties, main tanking in some parties and mostly damage dealing in some parties is the whole job (as I understand it). That's part of playing a flexible multi-role job: you adapt your tactics to the composition of the party and the camp you are in, rather than doing the same thing in every party the way a narrowly designed job like MNK does.

When there's a global healer shortage you'll find yourself pushed into doing more healing more often. Tank shortage, ditto.

When does the KRT First Burn start? Lv.70. What happens the previous the 60 levels of parties?

Well, ignoring the fact that the comment I was responding to was clearly (IMO) about merit and high-level exp: MNK get invited just fine at all levels, IMX (relative to other DD-only jobs, at least). I've never seen anyone say "monks suck, get a [other job] instead" or anything remotely like it (and if I did see it, I'd laugh, assuming it was a joke).