Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Feba]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

That idea is just a cuteness explosion.


In my pants.

[Murphie]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Great, now, if only for a horrifying instant, I've had to think of Feba's pants.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Great, now, if only for a horrifying instant, I've had to think of Feba's pants.

This is why I don't like making a post at the bottom of a page.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

This is why I don't like making a post at the bottom of a page.

You don't like being caught under Feba's explosion?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

You don't like being caught under Feba's explosion?

Try checking the bottom of the previous page, and you'll see what I mean.

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Now THF are still in the same position they were in pre-2handed update, and I don't think MNK needs much. Insane means to build TP, Haste+18~22% with out trying, access to a lot of great gear. Their problem is nobody wants them until later levels.

What, monks? Are you kidding? Monks kick ass from level 1 on.

Thieves, arguably, still have some problems. Assassin is nice, but the high level dagger WS are all multihits with limited capacity to benefit from SATA, so THF's spike damage doesn't stand out much compared to SAM/THF or DRK/THF's spike damage - and their DoT is still based on a pathetically low damage dagger. (Low delay doesn't fully compensate - even Triple Attack doesn't bring them up to par with other DDs.) Maybe daggers and dagger WS are already under review in connection with Dancer. Otherwise they'll probably continue to lack overall damage compared to NIN, WAR, MNK, DRG, SAM... and their hate manipulation isn't outstandingly stronger than SAM/THF or DRK/THF.

I still think Grips should be giving Haste+10% instead of DA that doesn't proc very often, Crit hits don't hurt but don't help as much as Haste would, and STR is easy to come by.

2handers already have access to 10% haste though Hasso. Another 10% through grips would be insane.

There *is* a 3% delay reduction grip; it doesn't seem to be very popular though.

(re: my comment about WAR and BLU tanks)
I disagree here. Yes, WAR AF does have the most Enmity of any job in the game, but in order for a WAR to tank, they need an enormous amount of support. Go NIN? 3 Shadows their entire tanking life span, and they'll never be able to use it effectively enough to mitigate damage. Go MNK? As much as I'd like to see WAR/MNK back (And thought we might after the 2handed update.), you can't count on the Counter and the increased HP isn't going to be that much of a God send. /SAM? Seigan/3rd Eye aren't even a true full time option for SAMs.

Well, I thought it was implied that making them more effective would be one way to make them more attractive. But I think that if the party is set up accordingly, WAR/MNK can still be an effective tank at any level; it helps to have a couple people share healing, though (such as RDM+SMN or RDM+BLU). Counter isn't reliable but it can stop a couple hits per fight - while also dealing damage back to the mob. And WAR/MNK's raw hate generation is hard to match with provoke + boost spam + extra hate from counters. (I do think they benefit more from axe+shield though, so I don't think the 2hand update would really help them much. Counter + shield means a significant reduction in the number of full damage hits.)

You aren't mentioning WAR/BLU, which needs refresh but can achieve ridiculous DEF without sacrificing much damage to do it (i.e. no need for defense food), while still having stuns and other blue magic for hate in addition to provoke and limited self-heal capability (tiny manapool, but with enough refresh that isn't necessarily a showstopper). I haven't seen much of it but it looks good with the right setup. Two refreshers (one can be a RDM doubling as main healer) would probably be good - but it might also be possible to do with RDM+DNC or RDM+SCH, depending on what those jobs are capable of.

I agree that WAR/NIN is a terrible tank build before 74 and not so great after (as a full-time tank), but it's far from the only option available to tanking WAR.

I think what a lot of us are looking for, is a reason to nudge the sheep in another direction. Encourage more parties with tanks. Encourage more parties that allow jobs to do their actual job. Give us a reason to invite a THF instead of a /THF. Create a reason for SMN to be a pure support mage, not a /WHM.

I agree (except maybe the SMN; I have no problem with support healing alongside BP use, I think players just try to force them to be the *only* healer in the party because there aren't enough others seeking, a role they clearly weren't designed for and don't excel in.)

Most importantly, players should expect that if they want decent exp, they're going to have to fight things that can and will hurt them. And if they want to not die, then they need some defensive players in the party, that keep the party alive by either taking the hits (for less damage than Mr. Berserk DRK), preventing the damage, healing it or some combination of those things. (And ditto for non-damage effects.)


I'd also like to commend Itazura's post about the good things about WHM; I'd say that wants to make me play WHM some more, but I know that there's no chance in the modern era of going to Onzozo where the WHM can make or break the party. Like other ToAU era WHMs, I'd be reduced to tossing a few cures that the party doesn't really need except to reduce their downtime. It's a sad state for the job that once kept me alive and in fighting condition against the attacks of dozens of different monster types.

Actually, I do have one thing to add: Too much of WHM is available through /WHM. They need more unique spells/abilities above level 38. Amnesia-na, barelements II that provide a Rampart-like absorb against that type of damage (only), barstatus II that gives a one-time immunity shield (you resist the effect but the barspell wears off instantly, requiring the WHM to stay in party and recast it as needed), Stoneskin II (castable on one target party member) and several others have been suggested in past threads IIRC. Pick one - or several - and get started. Endgame WHM are at least in considerable demand - raise 3/reraise 3 are very significant spells, -na spells can really matter in certain fights, and cure V sees a lot of use - but in 50+ exp WHM don't have a lot to bring to most parties (since they can easily avoid monsters that use a status effect that can't be removed by /WHMs).

I *would* suggest not nerfing /WHM, but instead buffing main WHMs at higher levels. Support curing is beneficial to the game in general (IMO), it's just that main WHMs don't bring much *other* than cures and slightly stronger protectra/shellra to an exp party.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

My point was FFXI is a massive time sink in a lot of areas compared to WoW, and that's what kills it. Pretty much everyone I've spoken to who plays WoW loves how they can just log in and get right into the thick of things for the majority of activities.

Even a few of my own friends tried FFXI for a while, but quit because they just didn't want to commit to the long (and often unrewarding) times. Obviously this isn't the case for everyone, or the game wouldn't still have 500k people (myself included) playing, but you can't ignore it as a factor.

The problem is it's a very tricky one, because if SE screws up, then the game becomes too easy and the thrill of the challenge is lost. I simply think that the challenges presented by the game should be worth the time and effort put in, which they often aren't (NMs...)

As an example, someone on here said once that the challenge of an HNM should not be in getting the claim, but in bringing it down. I agree with this philosophy whole heartedly for all aspects of FFXI.


EDIT: The thing about SAM/BLM is, the game doesn't stop you from doing so, but because of the mechanics involved it is far from practical, unlike in say FFV or FFT where you can do whatever you like. This game's beauty is in the job system, but because of how skills are handled, potentially fun combos just don't work.

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

-I like the idea of easier soloing, but not stupid easy exp. Just thought I'd say that.

-Mhurron, as usual I'm not sure if you're purposely missing my point to be snide or if I didn't do a good enough job of explaining. I don't think Malacite's example was the best with sam/blm. But the point is, there are a lot of things that can be done, but not a lot of incentive for players to try them when they will always gravitate towards what they know works.

Case and point: Armando and I were talking recently about methods of low-manning Charybdis with a PLD tank. He's got a great method that would probably work, requiring 4 people to pull off smoothly, as opposed to the 3 it typically takes for a NIN tank. But who in their right mind would spend ~4 hours camping an NM for you, knowing there's a very high likely hood of failure once you do get claim?

To make an attempt at tying this back to the OP, SMN can do a lot. But they can sub WHM and heal well. Their buffs are nice, but even their best offensive buff is the equivalent to maybe 1 bard song. And it's true that no Bard can give everyone phalanx and stoneskin, but in a day and age where we don't even have tanks, who cares about that?

I don't know. I don't want to turn this thread into every other thread where we say the jobs simply aren't balanced. I'm not going to post on this anymore until I have something different to state.

[711rocks]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

All points are valid and true to the roots of the problem in my view.
Honestly, its gotten to a point where DD's don't know what areas like Cape Terrigen, Meadows, Sky, Valley of Sorrows, Moon and Labrnyth of Onzozo are for outside of HNMs, NMs and missions. Majority will hands down pick, Nyzle Isle mire or thickets, or Mamool Ja staging point or standard imp/fly camps. Root of the problem, this generation of dd/support/mages/tanks don't know what we grew up with in this game. And how things changed. All they know is ToAU. Until we strike a perfect rebalance, definined at before ToAU came out, for all mobs, this trend can and will continue. Ask a dd if they know what the Tormama do and why it can make or break a whm with in Onzozo, i doubt they'll know. It'll mobs are at the difficulty and provide the same challenge of what we know that was RoZ and CoP, this trend will stick forever. Signet changes were nice, but, it did little to shift the player base for Conquest zones.
Two handed weapons, very nice, yet very damaging. Now the ToAU areas, 2handers and a mage is the only way to go otherwise you're lol. All single handers were badly burned by this. THF and MNK haven't gotten anything of use outside of group two merits. THF easily by todays standards is just a subjob like whm to rdm. THF's defining quality has been taken as a two handed weapon user's own main ability. Dagger being only real weapon of choice is nothing more but lolthf in the eyes of sam/thf, drk/thf and war/thf. BLU easily lands any kind of physical spell with SA and TA in an almost broken manner. MNK is probally gonna get to an early lol status i can feel it. H2H either needs a change or be considered a two handed weapon. And the possiblity of new abilities, skills or traits to open up.
Those at least are main concerns I feel that should be brought up.
post number 1000 for me, yay.

LS and I had a 4thf, brd, whm pt in lufaise on saturday
we got a lot of xp/h as lolthfs, got a bunch of chain 8-10+s, only really ending from running out of mobs
but as fun as that camp is
rams are retarded.
dropping the whole pts hp to 300 causes some problems ><
btw
in sky
main camp to yourself (your pt onry) is great & a lot of fun

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

LS and I had a 4thf, brd, whm pt in lufaise on saturday
we got a lot of xp/h as lolthfs, got a bunch of chain 8-10+s, only really ending from running out of mobs
but as fun as that camp is
rams are retarded.
dropping the whole pts hp to 300 causes some problems ><
btw
in sky
main camp to yourself (your pt onry) is great & a lot of fun

I know this. Those are my favorite camps. But try convincing people who are suited to go there to go. People want those damn Colibri/Puks/Mamool Ja exp

[tdh]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

What, monks? Are you kidding? Monks kick ass from level 1 on.

I never suggested they didn't. In fact I said I don't feel they need to be buffed/beefed up because they are awesome. My point was their popularity is non-existant until a certain point, then they become one of the most popular DDs in the game.

2handers already have access to 10% haste though Hasso. Another 10% through grips would be insane.

There *is* a 3% delay reduction grip; it doesn't seem to be very popular though.

The two handed update helped two handers in a way, but not all of them. It made the fact that they're still slow as hell more tolerable because now they all got an Accuracy bonus (DEX/Acc ratio change.), an Attack Bonus (Again, STR/Atk), and their WS got a boost. Now it became possible for a DRK to do 1k Spinning Slashes and not have to sob THF. But we still have the problem of TP gain being so slow, two handers are now being excluded again.

As far as the issue of Haste goes, DRK can get their hands on +10% from items you can buy, quest, or obtain from missions. DRK now subs SAM full time, and is forced to 3rd Eye/Seigan nearly full time preventing them from breaking a full 40MP Haste. On the other hand (No pun intended) MNK can do it naturally and get up to Haste+16 or 17 with out trying very hard.

The Sword Grip/Strap isn't very popular because it's counter productive. If it were Haste+3% it may be useful in conjunction with other Haste items, but reducing delay reduces TP per hit. Since we wanted a possible solution to our delay problem because we need to build TP as fast as MNKs and WARs, nobody wants to kill the effects of their Store TP. I know DLY-3% is pretty low, but when you're trying to stack on Store TP to get to a certain point, it hurts more than helps.

Well, I thought it was implied that making them more effective would be one way to make them more attractive. But I think that if the party is set up accordingly, WAR/MNK can still be an effective tank at any level; it helps to have a couple people share healing, though (such as RDM+SMN or RDM+BLU). Counter isn't reliable but it can stop a couple hits per fight - while also dealing damage back to the mob. And WAR/MNK's raw hate generation is hard to match with provoke + boost spam + extra hate from counters. (I do think they benefit more from axe+shield though, so I don't think the 2hand update would really help them much. Counter + shield means a significant reduction in the number of full damage hits.)

The main reason why I say that WAR just isn't going to be tanking is because in order to mitigate damage, you reduce your hate out put. You do what you can to turtle up, and get an Enmity set, but even if you swing a Great Axe you're going to have cut your damage out put in half, while everybody else is using your defining job ability to double and triple your damage. They would require Trick Attack to tank.

The WAR community made a huge push years ago to be removed from the random tank ranks into the DD slot they're in now. I for one think it was a good move. Yes, we miss a tank, but it was just more work than I think was worth it to gear for a tanking role.

You aren't mentioning WAR/BLU, which needs refresh but can achieve ridiculous DEF without sacrificing much damage to do it (i.e. no need for defense food), while still having stuns and other blue magic for hate in addition to provoke and limited self-heal capability (tiny manapool, but with enough refresh that isn't necessarily a showstopper). I haven't seen much of it but it looks good with the right setup. Two refreshers (one can be a RDM doubling as main healer) would probably be good - but it might also be possible to do with RDM+DNC or RDM+SCH, depending on what those jobs are capable of.

Yeah.... because I didn't think of it at the time. lol But I still think having subjob MP becomes a big hindrance here. Also that in order for this to work, you suggest taking another job out of their main job role, and that's part of what I would like to see stop happening.

I agree (except maybe the SMN; I have no problem with support healing alongside BP use, I think players just try to force them to be the *only* healer in the party because there aren't enough others seeking, a role they clearly weren't designed for and don't excel in.)

Now I don't have a problem with SMN being a support job. Helping with Paralyna, tossing out Curaga like BLMs used to do when they partied with the rest of us losers, and stuff like that I completely agree is fine. Duuuu eeeet! But when they're invited for /WHM ONRY I feel sorry for them. {Predator Claw}, {No thanks!} {Cure III} {Yes, please!} That's where I take issue. I have a friend who recently "retired" and I took over his character. He leveled SMN to Lv.75 and WHM to Lv.74. I can't believe he leveled WHM65, and then basically did it all over again as SMN.

Actually, I do have one thing to add: Too much of WHM is available through /WHM. They need more unique spells/abilities above level 38. Amnesia-na, barelements II that provide a Rampart-like absorb against that type of damage (only), barstatus II that gives a one-time immunity shield (you resist the effect but the barspell wears off instantly, requiring the WHM to stay in party and recast it as needed), Stoneskin II (castable on one target party member) and several others have been suggested in past threads IIRC. Pick one - or several - and get started. Endgame WHM are at least in considerable demand - raise 3/reraise 3 are very significant spells, -na spells can really matter in certain fights, and cure V sees a lot of use - but in 50+ exp WHM don't have a lot to bring to most parties (since they can easily avoid monsters that use a status effect that can't be removed by /WHMs).

I like this idea, but I'm a selfish RDM in that I wanted Stoneskin II for RDM, so I don't think WHM should get that! lol What? I said I was being selfish!

I know this. Those are my favorite camps. But try convincing people who are suited to go there to go. People want those damn Colibri/Puks/Mamool Ja exp

The sheep don't know any where else to go in some places, or they don't want to work for it. It's like going to the Mire and people will run past 3 Flies to fight over a Jnun (95 EXP) or an Imp because the fly has some decent HP and everybody is OMGWTFScared of Cursed Sphere. They die just as fast. Or try another sky adventure. I remember when we used to fight over that camp.

If you're suggesting the return of yokodama, that would be a boon to THFs and /THFs alike. It will do nothing for the problem stated.

I'm not suggesting a change back to exactly that, but I've seen a few 2 THF parties with /NIN partners. Both THFs would SATA for some insane damage. Provided they were Colibri, but 1300 Dancing Edges/Shark Bites are pretty damn nice. Anything to allow them more ease to actually combine the two abilities would possibly boost their damage and popularity.

Forgive me for my lapse in proof reading, it's late, I'm tired, and meriting. I'll proof read tomorrow. lol

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

The two handed update helped two handers in a way, but not all of them. It made the fact that they're still slow as hell more tolerable because now they all got an Accuracy bonus (DEX/Acc ratio change.), an Attack Bonus (Again, STR/Atk), and their WS got a boost. Now it became possible for a DRK to do 1k Spinning Slashes and not have to sob THF. But we still have the problem of TP gain being so slow, two handers are now being excluded again.

I thought since the TP formula change (back in August 2006), two-handed weapons weapons no longer fall behind one-handed ones?

Is there something else keeping their users from gaining TP faster aside from a possible lack of Haste gear?

As far as the issue of Haste goes, DRK can get their hands on +10% from items you can buy, quest, or obtain from missions. DRK now subs SAM full time, and is forced to 3rd Eye/Seigan nearly full time preventing them from breaking a full 40MP Haste.

... Most DRK/SAMs I see aren't using Seigan often enough; too many of them stay on Hasso full time. Some of them can't even be bothered to use Third Eye before WS. Where are these overly considerate DRK/SAMs who keep up Seigan full-time you speak of? Maybe we can cross breed them with some of the lesser ones on Ifrit to improve the stocks on both Worlds?

Now I don't have a problem with SMN being a support job. Helping with Paralyna, tossing out Curaga like BLMs used to do when they partied with the rest of us losers, and stuff like that I completely agree is fine. Duuuu eeeet! But when they're invited for /WHM ONRY I feel sorry for them. {Predator Claw}, {No thanks!} {Cure III} {Yes, please!} That's where I take issue.

Hmm. What would you say if BPs are reworked to give SMNs more healing options? Say, starting with an MP efficient Regenga II/III? (While there are game balance issues which should be addressed first, probably no job is in more dire need of a job specific overhaul than SMN.)

Actually, I've always thought that Blue Mages have learned from Red Mages, and disallow themselves from doing anything from damage: otherwise, noybody would want a Blue Mage for anything but support. I figure maybe some of the people who leveled the job forced themselves to be pidgeonholed in to Damage Dealing, because they saw having to support like a Red Mage as arduous. They didn't want a Red Mage repeat, so to say.

*Shrug* If you're a RDM main and not lusting after some of the BLU-specific debuffs, I'd say something wrong with you. BLU is much more suited for offense than RDM is, while being less well rounded as a support role job--and I don't think anything is wrong with that. (I happen to play both... RDM75 and BLU37 now.)

And, yes, BLU makes a decent healer, too. Just about every seeking JP BLU player I see has comments indicating /WHM is available. Plenty of (non-NA) BLU players are willing to play healer part-time, it seems.

I think it has more to do with the whole bait-and-switch thing going on, as I implied with the Blue Mages avoiding.

Red Mage may not have turned out to fit its billing well, but it is fun and exciting. I can't help but shake my head at all those who keep gushing over BLU as "RDM done right." What's done right is that the two jobs are different but both fun--S-E did a good job with them, as far as I'm concerned.

[tdh]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I thought since the TP formula change (back in August 2006), two-handed weapons weapons no longer fall behind one-handed ones?

Is there something else keeping their users from gaining TP faster aside from a possible lack of Haste gear?

All out TP gain between one handed and two handed weapons are about on equal footing, but the jobs aren't.

Example: WAR/NIN & MNK/NIN - WAR obviously has Double Attack, access to DA gear, and DA Merits. MNK has access to Kick Attacks, KA gear and merits. DRK/NIN? DRK/SAM? We got lowered Atk & STR to do less damage an shadows, or 3rd Eye & Zanshin. So you see a WAR/NIN with Axes (Before the update obviously.) DA both Axes like a fiend. MNK with various gear already attacks fast as hell, and then kicks ever 3rd volley. (I did a mini "study" of a MNK I partied with recently. KA proc rate made me want to turn on him and try to kill him.) All the while I was stuck with Hasso for WS only (Since the accuracy for Guillotine didn't seem to be all that adjusted, unless it was in the Sidewinder direction.), and Seigan/3rd Eye the rest of the time.

So the WAR was building TP faster than I was, and since we were at the Greater Colibri camp my Abs-TP is useless. (Yes, you can Stun the mob, but the mob can still cast BOTH spells on you or somebody else. PLDs don't much appreciate having their TP stolen, and NINs are funny with how particular they are with their shadows.) I had to fall back on Meditate that only gives 40~60 TP every 3 minutes, and just enough Store TP to be noticed after WS. Either way I was still getting demolished in the TP department all the while sitting at the Accuracy cap thinking "I wish I could get my hands on a Haste+18~20%.

... Most DRK/SAMs I see aren't using Seigan often enough; too many of them stay on Hasso full time. Some of them can't even be bothered to use Third Eye before WS. Where are these overly considerate DRK/SAMs who keep up Seigan full-time you speak of? Maybe we can cross breed them with some of the lesser ones on Ifrit to improve the stocks on both Worlds?

Maybe it's just my LS then. We all have other jobs, and we know what it's like to be a giant MP sponge. Part of SAM appeal is the extra STR we'd get over NIN and no need to worry about Silence. But what's the point if you completely neglect the defense part of the job, especially when the point is trying to make the MP last as long as possible?

As a new SAM, I've been meriting like crazy trying to cap out Great Katana skill right now. Tonight, after taking 3 dirt naps, I basically didn't even bother with Hasso any more. (One of my deaths came less than 60 seconds after my weakened wore off.) Anything to avoid hits and save the poor Pink Mage some MP.

Hmm. What would you say if BPs are reworked to give SMNs more healing options? Say, starting with an MP efficient Regenga II/III? (While there are game balance issues which should be addressed first, probably no job is in more dire need of a job specific overhaul than SMN.)

Regenga wouldn't be a horrible idea, but I think it may have the reverse effect and just continue the push to make SMNs a WHM.

But, trying to keep on a positive note, with the update to BPs with Ward and Rage, that would actually work great. Since that update, I've seen more Hastgas, I've seen more Fenrir BPs, but sometimes I see Aerial Armor, Release, and back to Curaga. I used to love it when I could build a party that allowed my SMN friend to be an actual *gasp* SMN. Tossing out 1100 Predator Claws. Buffing melees to save me some MP. Was just a great experience, but now SMNs are so used to being /WHM only they can't be a SMN. Last night I get an invite to a NIN, SAM, SAM (me), BRD, RDM, SMN party. SMN had more MP than a Hume should legally have access to, 9MP/tick from Ballad, Refresh, Sanction, gear, and traits, but wouldn't toss out a DD BP. In the end, he decide we had plenty of healing magic we just needed more DD, so he switched to SAM. Comes in, geared kinda mediocre, doing some pretty weak Gekkos when he had damn near a full set of SMN AF2, HQ staves and presumably merits. Only thing I can chalk this up to, is that he's been pigeon holed into doing a WHM's job for so long, he doesn't know how to do his own. I find that very sad, and wish there was a way to fix that.

Like I said in my first response, I think user based adjustments are great. Means we're trying things, doing out own tests, trying to find out what each job can do and how to maximize our potential. Just there has to be a balance - I don't know how to achieve it - but I have to hope SE can find something.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

What, monks? Are you kidding? Monks kick ass from level 1 on.

Then how come no one invited them for... oh... from FFXI to Chains of Promathia?

It took an expansion for this job to get invites, not a job adjustment. What does that tell you about MNK?

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I think people focus too much on the level 70 BPs. What a lot of people seem to ignore about SMN is that the lower level BPs keep gaining in power as the avatars level with you - but they don't gain in MP cost. This makes them almost ridiculously MP efficient. If Predator Claws costs too much, throw some Tail Whips or Double Punches for 500 - practically free.


As DRG/SAM, I've never had a problem with TP gain - I gain TP faster than anyone but full SAMs. But then I have to wait for WS until I have a hate reducer ready or the mob is about to die. More TP gain wouldn't really help me much at all. (I don't have Seigan yet, so it's not an option.)

Sword Grip is "counterproductive" the same way DW and Suppa are counterproductive. I don't see NINs and WAR/NINs rushing to throw away their DW gear, because while it has zero effect on TP gain, it has significant effect on DoT which makes up most of your damage.

Anyway, if you're not using Hasso, you have little grounds to complain that you don't have enough Haste to keep up in TP. Throw away 10% haste (that *doesn't* reduce your TP gain per hit) and +10 acc that takes up 0 inv slots, and then act surprised when you don't measure up?

The WAR community made a huge push years ago to be removed from the random tank ranks into the DD slot they're in now. I for one think it was a good move. Yes, we miss a tank, but it was just more work than I think was worth it to gear for a tanking role.

I don't think it was good at all. It was laziness. They'd rather sit around lfp DD only than get the gear and food to fill the role that needed to be filled. And the community rewarded that by accepting them as DDs and leaving other jobs - that couldn't tank if they tried - out.

Sure it's work to tank. And work to maintain two sets of gear for two different party roles. Nobody knows that better than a post-ToAU PLD. But if you'd rather get exp than sit in Whitegate, *do what the party needs you to do*.

Similar remarks apply to DDBLU. Play your *whole* job - if I want someone who just hits things, I'll invite a monk.