Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Yup, souleater does draw in hate. Espically topping it with Shadow of Death then Head Butt spammage XD

[Ziero]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I'm referring of course to the 6 primary nukes. Why is stone on the lowest end and thunder the highest? Why aren't they all equal damage, MP and casting time with bonuses and penalties applying based on the target's weaknesses or resistances like in every single other FF and most RPGs in general? For that matter, why are there so few mobs (loltorama) that are even weak to earth magic? At least SE got it right with NIN and SMN in that respect (to an extent... they all do equal damage, but none of them have positive multipliers for mobs that are weak to the element, just resist rates - . -)

My guess is because they're gained at different lvls so SE felt they needed different lvls of strength. If Stone, the first spell you get, was a strong as Thunder, the last spell you gotten, and both had the same MP costs and effectiveness, they'd have to both be learned at the same lvl. Otherwise you go a LOT of lvls with nothing new. Hence why SE split up and seperated the elemental spells into tiers and granted them at different lvls, so Blm could always be learning a new spell. But the AM II Merit spells all have the same MP costs and effectiveness as they're all gained at 75. Which is also why Nin and Smn can do that as well.

So with Blm it was a choice of all at once, then nothing for 10-20 lvls, or split em up and make them different. As far as I could tell.

Shoulda made this an Ask SE question.

And I'm against SE nerfing SAM at all. Maybe it's because I don't have a Hagun, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with SAM post update. Yah, Hasso is kinda nuts now but so what? Technically speaking DRK has the potential to blow every single job out the water beyond what's reasonable if they can get their hands on either a Kraken Club or Apocalypse, but you don't see SE going off and nerfing Blood Weapon or Soul Eater... granted this is an extreme case and they're clearly looking to adjust things for the masses, but still!
It pisses me off to no end that 2 handers are finally getting to kick the ass they should be kicking, and all the bitchy MNKs and DW WAR's (who are all fakers for never touching GAX pre-update far as I'm concerned.) don't want anyone challenging the size of their e-peens and so they demand SE step in just like they did with RNG and BLM. It's disgusting.

While I don't really feel Hasso needs that much of a fix (though we don't even know how much of a 'nerf' it will be), this comment just *screams* of "WTF". You're comparing a lvl 25 ability that gives Haste, Acc and Str that can always be up with one of *the* rarest weapons in game and a combat tactic that's only good once every 2 hours for 30 seconds? As a class who makes use of a slightly nerfed Hasso already (War/Sam recieves half the bonuses of hasso outside of full Haste) I can assure you that slightly lowering it's stat bonuses are not going to kill the ability. And as someone who uses *both* one handed and two handed weapons (which fyi, my Gaxe was used and capped long before I ever use DW) I can tell you that 2 hander Dmg blows away DW dmg without a full haste build on IT mobs.

Blood Weapon sucks without Soul Eater and Soul Eater will literally *kill* the Drk *just for using it*. That ability has enough drawback that a nerf is not needed. But Hasso is a free Haste+Str+Acc that can be up constantly with no noticable hate or negative side effect. For all we know, Hasso may just be given a Def/Eva down or something to help balance it's dmg in that a Sam who uses it would have to cancel it to take hits or something.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

In other words Malacite, you'd want avatars output to reflect the subjob of the summoner similar to the way a Dragoon's Wyvern does for a Dragoon?

Well it's one way to do things. At the very least Summoning Magic Skill needs to have a much more profound impact. I'd also like to see each avatar have unique stats (e.g. Titan can tank since he's earth element) but that's a bit more complex and I doubt SE would get off their asses and do this. What I was suggesting above was simply a boost to those pacts based on sub, not that they derive their effectiveness from it similar to how BLU doesn't need /WHM, but benefits greatly from it for their healing spells. (The extra MND and healing skill pump up Wild Carrot, Healing Breeze and Magic Fruit quite a lot)

There are other things that really piss me off that aren't very FF in flavor either, and for a game that's apparently based heavily off of 1 2 and 3, well that's just wrong.

I'm referring of course to the 6 primary nukes. Why is stone on the lowest end and thunder the highest? Why aren't they all equal damage, MP and casting time with bonuses and penalties applying based on the target's weaknesses or resistances like in every single other FF and most RPGs in general? For that matter, why are there so few mobs (loltorama) that are even weak to earth magic? At least SE got it right with NIN and SMN in that respect (to an extent... they all do equal damage, but none of them have positive multipliers for mobs that are weak to the element, just resist rates - . -)


And I'm against SE nerfing SAM at all. Maybe it's because I don't have a Hagun, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with SAM post update. Yah, Hasso is kinda nuts now but so what? Technically speaking DRK has the potential to blow every single job out the water beyond what's reasonable if they can get their hands on either a Kraken Club or Apocalypse, but you don't see SE going off and nerfing Blood Weapon or Soul Eater... granted this is an extreme case and they're clearly looking to adjust things for the masses, but still!

It pisses me off to no end that 2 handers are finally getting to kick the ass they should be kicking, and all the bitchy MNKs and DW WAR's (who are all fakers for never touching GAX pre-update far as I'm concerned.) don't want anyone challenging the size of their e-peens and so they demand SE step in just like they did with RNG and BLM. It's disgusting.

[Ziero]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

As far as I can tell, the reason why /whm is so much more powerful in a pt then any other mage sub is because it is more useful and needed then any other mage sub. If /blm could nuke as good as blm, who would make use of it? Drks? They already have strong elemental skills, but they suffer from lower tier spells. Rdm? They're the opposite, with lower skill and higher tiers, yet nuke better then Drks. Smn? Still not helping the main job do it's 'main job'. Any melee class? Lol, just lol. Whm sub is so powerful because it is useful and needed. It takes one main healing job and helps out at least 3 other classes fill a role *every party needs*. Blm sub could never do that. There's also the fact that there are other spells that are effective regardless of skill level, namely Dispel and Stun, which can be cast from a subjob and still work effectively. Nerfing /whm will not help anyone.

Also, to those of you who say Smn should be played the way it was in other games, well I say *it is* played the way it was in other games. It's used as a cannon, pointed and aimed at a target, and fired at will to deal massive damage. And from what I can see, dropping a WS a minute without the need for TP *while* buffing a pt *and* being able to main heal is certainly a good thing. Especially at endgame or during BC+Boss fights where Smn is one of the best *damage dealing jobs* you can have.

The problem isn't Smn being a main healer, it's Smn being the *only* healer in a Pt. In which cases that's because of a bad set up then a problem with the class. Though I will completely agree that some BPs, especially some of the buffs, are entirely too weak. Ifrit's Warcry should give a bigger Att up and last longer, Rolling Thunder should give pt Shock spikes/En-thunder that's actually worth a damn, Hastga should last as long as regular haste and cost slightly less MP and so forth. And their DD BPs should be based on Smn skill, Avatar TP, Int and MAB, not subjob.

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

That's why it's better to fix SMN instead of fiddling with /WHM or healing magic. I understand what some you who advocate changing healing magic want, but honestly you'd get much better boost to WHM main if you just nerf Seigan/Hasso and Utsusemi, which unfortunately will still leave less room for SMN mains in parties.

There's no need to nerf Hasso imo, it's already limited by your ability to shed hate. Even a DRG with two hate-reducing JAs has to be careful of their excessive damage output if they keep Hasso on all the time. They may be adjusting the str and dex formulas again anyway (In hindsight adjusting those right after adding hasso was a mistake: hasso was doing plenty to help 2h users on its own.) Keep grips and hasso as they are and tone down str and dex a little, and 2h can be reasonably balanced.

Seigan I haven't seen much of yet, so I can't really comment on whether or not it's too good. But Utsusemi, and especially subbed Utsusemi, does really need a nerf. (Which is nothing players haven't been saying for years, of course. SE either disagrees, or hasn't figured out a way to deal with the problem yet.)

I think it would leave more room for SMN mains in parties, though: the obvious response to the party taking more damage is to actually have more than one person that can heal in the party (e.g. rdm+whm, rdm+smn, whm+smn with a brd or cor puller). When you do that SMN can make a lot more use of their BPs and not be tied to curespam, and it also increases the demand for jobs that can help out with healing in the first place.

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

In other words Malacite, you'd want avatars output to reflect the subjob of the summoner similar to the way a Dragoon's Wyvern does for a Dragoon?

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

> _ > if anything Seigan needs a boost. Way the hell too random to be reliable. Idk how many times I've nearly died because the stupid thing only absorbed 1 or 2 hits and then WHAM mob WS...

The cure potency idea is pretty neat, but SE would have to give it to PLD as well IMO (anything to make them less refresh dependent please!)

I just think that it's still pretty unbalancing that /WHM is so good compared to other /Mage subs. Either make them all good, or make them all suck SE. It'd be nice if they'd uncap nukes too. Then both WHM and BLM would gain a nice chunk of endurance. I mean shit, that's how it's always worked in FF games, and just because this is an MMO is not a good enough reason to change this.

On the matter of SMN, SE's stated before that they don't like the current trends of SMN and want to make them keep their avatars out more. (this was said around the time of last fan fest I think. Can't find the link to it on POL for the life of me. Of course, this was also from the same list that promised a Scythe boost...)

As usual, they're taking their sweet ass time with it, but hopefully it'll be good once it comes around. And contrary to what others did in FFX, I used Aeons quite liberally :P and I much prefer my idea for fixing SMN which involves using /WHM to boost ward pacts, and /BLM to boost Rage Pacts (at least magical ones; maybe /WAR for physical and let the SMN melee o. O ?)

There's no reason for SMN not to main heal, I simply object to being a second WHM and rarely using avatars except for the odd MB or Buff. I think healing the PT though blood pacts (or simply leaving carby out to main heal?) would be much more interesting as opposed to being just another cure battery.

It's not the curing, it's the utter lack of avatar related fun :3

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Slow linear growth: May make ridiculous result like Cure I for 20 HP at WHM37, if aiming for 40 HP at Lv.75

Curved growth: Means a look-up tables, since you don't want to do fancy calculations for something used so often. Unfortunately, look-up tables takes memory, so it's still "expensive" to implement.

WHM can already cure better; the problem is most exp'ing do not require better curing than we have now, unless you count my Lufaise Meadows (Tavnazian Ram and Abraxas) party earlier today.

Nerfing /WHM: reduced choices of viable healers and effectiveness of many backup healers--bad at low levels

Hiking Healing Magic's effect: doesn't help WHM at high levels exp parties.

That's why it's better to fix SMN instead of fiddling with /WHM or healing magic. I understand what some you who advocate changing healing magic want, but honestly you'd get much better boost to WHM main if you just nerf Seigan/Hasso and Utsusemi, which unfortunately will still leave less room for SMN mains in parties.

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

"Simple" would be giving whms a cure potency trait that gives them +10%, +20% or whatever to all their cures (while everyone else keeps the MP costs and amount cured that they have now). Changing the cap formulas and changing the way skill affects cures would be a lot less simple.

It's a little late now, but maybe someone should have asked SE about their idea for SMN and whether or not the half-summon, half-healer playstyle is what they had in mind for the job. Then again, I think that's been asked before, years ago, and SE is apparently ok with the job the way it is (at least since the BP split).

I think that trying to get the bugs and junk BPs fixed is more important, and more likely to succeed, than trying to convince SE to change the job into something radically different that there is *less* need for among the playerbase compared to what it is now. If it doesn't fit your idea of what a summoner "should" be - design your own damn game.


To return to the original question: I think SE is trying. Too many players want to DD compared to the needs of parties; but SE has introduced several dd hybrids in the last expansion and this one. BLU can heal while dealing damage - but the players refuse. COR is a DD and support at the same time - but hardly anyone plays it. DNC will apparently be a DD and support at the same time that doesn't have to depend on ammo, luck *or* mp (sounds pretty freaking broken when you put it that way, doesn't it?) - we'll see if anyone actually plays it with any emphasis on the support roles or if 90% of players get bored by the lack of big ws numbers and go back to WAR/NIN.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

the growth of each cure would use a different exponent based on it's tier. Simple as that.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

What part of cure growth based on spell tier did you not get? It's not that hard to keep them in check with each other if they're uncapped so long as their growth rates aren't too high.

Agreed, once you hit the transition point, a lower growth curve could be balanced in a way similar to how the caps are now. There's no reason why the MP efficiency of a first Tier Cure has to grow beyond that of a second tier just because it hasn't stopped growing altogether. It's not that hard to write formulae and then test them for their effect over certain variables. Curve-based growth analysis is one of the major uses of calculus, isn't it? We have all sorts of nifty techniques for avoiding having to lock things down to known quantities in order to control them. :P

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Cure V aside, the other cures' MP costs and caps were carefully chosen to keep their MP efficiency about the same, so you can use whatever size cure you need at the moment without worrying that you're wasting MP. I don't really think I want to see that broken.

What part of cure growth based on spell tier did you not get? It's not that hard to keep them in check with each other if they're uncapped so long as their growth rates aren't too high.

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Allowing lower level cures to keep gaining in effectiveness will make them more MP efficient; having more MP efficiency sounds good, but spamming low level cures over and over and over to get that efficiency sounds not so good.

Cure V aside, the other cures' MP costs and caps were carefully chosen to keep their MP efficiency about the same, so you can use whatever size cure you need at the moment without worrying that you're wasting MP. I don't really think I want to see that broken.

Give WHM a cure potency trait at 50 or 60 (that would apply to all their cures equally), maybe buff the higher tier regens (which are already very hate and MP efficient) or add new WHM-only spells, and don't try to fix what isn't broken.

Besides, it would be ridiculous to nerf /whm and not /nin (you can't use your subjob to help others but you can still use it to be pretty much invulnerable? wtf?), and nerfing both would be such a revolution I don't think anyone could claim to have a good idea of what the game would be like afterwards.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

>. > 400 HP Cure 1? Don't you think that's rather extreme?

I do think SE should uncap all cures and let healing skill improve them (the same goes for nukes and other spells > _>) but with a reasonable growth rate determined by primary stats and spell tier.

E.g., with enough MND and skill a Cure 1 could hit say around 50-60 HP, which would be amazing for WHM, and so forth with the higher tier spells (within reason, as you said we don't want to overshadow Cure V. However, Cure V also has the enmity advantage, and these boosts would mostly apply to WHM anyway and not RDM due to skill differences)

[Lunaryn]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Magic's effectiveness should be dependent on level--whether that's exp level or skill level, I'm not sure, but that's not really relevant. Offensive magic is determined by level of the target and the caster, while non-offensive magic is based on the level of the caster alone.
Healing magic has low caps, but it's not breaking the rules, I think--its effectiveness is determined by level. Is the lower caps themselves somehow rule breaking? Maybe, but if Cure I heals 400 HP for WHM75, why bother to have Cure IV at all? Clearly a relatively low cap or low growth curve is needed, and lower cap is easier to implement.

Lower growth rate was kind of what I was thinking. Perhaps if you wanted to make sure not to break anything, you could keep the current soft-cap numbers, but have them serve as a transition point between relatively quick growth in healing output per skill/MND and rather slower growth. So maybe a SMN/WHM at 75 is Curing for more than 31, say 62, but a WHM75 with capped Healing Magic is now Curing for 93, and similar distinctions for higher tiers. Something like this would allow Healing Magic skill to mean more generally without breaking Divine Seal, I'd think...

That said, making subjob's skill literally mean having the effectiveness of someone half your level doesn't necessarily make sense. Yes, your subjob abilities are capped at half your level, but you are a lot higher level than your subjob, and current level is supposed to account for a lot. Again, this seems like something that should achieve some kind of balance from the limits of the subbed skill cap and the potency of the main job level... To take a random gimped example: WAR/BLM should suck for the reasons of having half the spell tiers, poor MP, half the MAB traits, and such, not because at level 75 they cast like a level 37 character.