Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I've had a pld in Bibiki bay who'd use a Club and shield and did nothing but spam moonlight, even though we had a refresher. One of the few impressive feats i've seen out of the norm.

[Vyuru]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I've been thinking more and more about WHM meleeing, Lv.43+; Stoneskin and Blink to absorb damage AoE's, B+ Club skill, and Moonlight for MP restore--might work out very nicely for a MP using front line.

Having been in a static with a melee whm I'll say it can certainly be done, wasn't overly impressed with Moonlight though, Brenna's Moonlights tended to restore about 18-24 mp, not alot but not bad either since that is 18-24 mp to the entire party. This was around lvl 50 on Kuftal Tunnel crabs if that makes a difference.

Of course later on, what is Whm's staff skill? Would Spirit Taker be useful?

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Having been in a static with a melee whm I'll say it can certainly be done, wasn't overly impressed with Moonlight though, Brenna's Moonlights tended to restore about 18-24 mp, not alot but not bad either since that is 18-24 mp to the entire party. This was around lvl 50 on Kuftal Tunnel crabs if that makes a difference.
Of course later on, what is Whm's staff skill? Would Spirit Taker be useful?

Whm wouldn't get that til 70. If they should staff over the mighty hexa @_@;

[Nuriko]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I've tried using Moonlight in skillup parties, it didn't seem terribly good. That's a good situation for it, though ... lots of people are going to have at least some healing ability. The big MP-font is supposed to be Spirit Taker, but it's high-level and WHM staff is only C+.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

The two-handed update may have made WHM's use of Spirit Taker more viable on T-VT monsters: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.h...98724341125678

Not sure if I should believe it or not... *shrug*

[Pteryx]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

As long as we're talking meleeing WHMs, I find myself wondering how viable /DNC is going to turn out. If it's good enough, it could give WHM (or RDM?) the chance to actually hit things by turning TP into the new MP. The drain-to-the-party step for general maintenance, their actual MP for spike healing... Let's hope SE actually made this something that could actually work. (Unlike, say, the self-bursting SAM/BLM suggested earlier, who would suffer from too many resists. Hmph, "nothing in the game mechanics to stop you" indeed...) They do seem to have learned somewhat, in that BLU physical spells rely partially on your skill in your currently wielded weapon. Sure, you wouldn't get to use weaponskills, but it'd still be melee mage enough for me. -- Pteryx

[Arctic Wolf]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

From reading all these posts, I get the impression it's impossible to put a party together. People want to do this, don't want to do that, and putting that in their search comments. That seems perfectly fine, play however you want, at level 75.
It is incredibly frustrating at any level between 25(ish) and 70+ to stand around looking for party for hours or creating a party, when you constantly encounter players not wanting to do certain tasks. Red Mages or Summoners not wanting to main heal,
some other person doesn't want to be a replacement, a Samurai doesn't want to pull, a melee job not wanting to sub Warrior to help the Thief using SaTa, a Warrior not wanting to tank at a low level where he should be capable to do so, even with his two axes, and so on. Maybe, for example, a black mage not wanting to main heal could be understandable.. perhaps they just don't make a good enough main healer at their current level. That's understandable. But if you always expect to be able to do just that what you want to do, or complain about a certain task put to you, you're really not helping the "leveling process" of this game. At level 75, by all means go look for a party that is completely the way you desire, but at lower levels please be versatile. If you feel too often enforced to doing something you don't want to do, then it's not bad to turn down a party invite once in a while because you don't want to do a certain task again.

If you always expect to play any way you want, you don't fit in this game's leveling community.

Ps.: I level a tank job together with my friend's Thief. In our search comment it states clearly enough that we're a set. 75% of the invites are from people who appearantly have a bug in their game and can not read search comments. Once again, very frustrating in the long run. I'd like to see an improvement in the search system, however I currently can't think of a good and realistic way.

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Don't forget
Summoner
-reason to invite to a party without /whm

Now that I don't necessarily agree with (unless you're just saying "Another subjob that provides at least as much benefit as /whm does", which wouldn't suck).

I'd say
--reason for a party to want you to use bloodpacts often (although not necessarily *DD* bloodpacts specifically; fixing some of the pathetic excuses for enhancing bloodpacts would be fine with me too).

But I think it's not unreasonable to use some subjob spells too, and if you're going to do that, /whm is the most beneficial subjob to use for that. It has the most useful spells of any mage sub (and the competing benefits of /blm and /rdm, conserve mp and fast cast, don't apply to SMN; it would be interesting if conserve mp could reduce the cost of bloodpacts and fast cast could reduce BP recast, but atm they can't).

If you're not going to do anything but damage, you'd be no better than a ranger who can't pull and runs out of MP. What good is that? Dealing damage from a distance is only godly in kited HNM fights. In exp, it's the ability to turn your MP to other uses as the situation demands that makes BLMs worth inviting at all. The same would apply to a DD-only SMN, which is why nobody wants one (except a few frustrated SMNs with very mistaken ideas about what their invite rate would be as a non-healing SMN). Don't ask for your own job to be made useless to parties; you really won't like the results.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Yes yes it's been stated and agreed upon to death that SMN needs a complete overhaul. I have a few very good SCH-inspired ideas, but that's not for this thread.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

If you always expect to play any way you want, you don't fit in this game's leveling community.

The solution is to either solo or make small groups, which would allow you to gain experience points the way you'd like. Or, just to get experience points, period, if you're the flexible sort fed up with all the "I'm not a ___ monkey/bot!" protests.

With the updated Signet or the Sanction Refresh, Adventuring Fellows, knowledge about all the different solo and small group techniques (DRG/mage healer, /BST's Charm parity with BST, Utsusemi to reduce healing need, using the likes of FFXI-Atlas to find monsters in right level ranges, etc.), it's actually quite easy to level without a full group these days.

* * *

I wish there's good support within the game which allow small group exp'ing but at the same time can advertise that they would like to invite more people or be invited to join others. We have a "person seeking party" flag, but perhaps there should be a "party seeking more member" flag as well, so people looking swell the ranks of small groups know who to talk to.

/sea all inv 25-28 << Looks for players who set a "looking for party" flag.
/seal all rec 25-28 << Looks for leaders who set a "looking for members" flag.

I think I'm asking for S-E's help a party grow organically here... That may also counter the tendency to strictly define roles for each job, since party put together that way have to adapt its operation with every new member, and do so over time. This wouldn't work very well without versatile gears, though. For example, I currently loath to cast offensive spells or even cures on my RDM without the elemental staves, but if some combination of sword and/or shield can give 75% of the benefit from the staves and let me contribute usable melee damage, I just may be tempted to move out of the back line. Without such sword and shield, though, I would instead continue to carry my staves, and leave all my melee gears with my Moogle when I go partying.

Most zones aren't terribly friendly to the idea of an organically growing party, either; targets which would be good for a duo of a certain level would give sub-par experience points in full party, but the area usually doesn't have any targets good for group of six, nor the neighboring zones. Forcing an evacuation back to Jeuno/White Gate for transportation or an abrupt teleport followed by a long Chocobo ride is not terribly conducive to a smoothly growing a group from a two-man operation to a six-people full party.

If we OP teleport can be opened up a bit more, it may help. Add Outpost-to-Outpost warping, and let non-controlling nation's citizens use them for additional cost (either for more Gil, or turn in Conquest Points to the controlling nation in exchange). I don't think it'd ruin the game if Outposts not under Beastmen control have Chocobo rentals, either.

Additing quests to open up those kind of new functionalities can be really cool, too, and gives S-E an opportunity to fill out the history of each outpost.


* * *

I really like the idea of having to "pay" Conquest Points to controlling nation for services at Outposts--it makes Outposts more usable to everyone, elevate the usefulness of Conquest Points, and make the Conquest rivalry system a little personal--your precious CP is going to help the rival's chance of winning Conquest next week, when you and your fellow citizens didn't manage to secure the zone last week!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

No matter how "elite" it became during RoZ, I was still the only Warrior that I knew that carried defense and offense swaps. Any "pure" DD job certainly didn't use swaps of any sort. So in that regard, I don't think we've fallen so far since AU.

The fact that I explained the phenomena in no way meant that I condone it. I tell it like it is (or as I see, as I tagged at the bottom of the post). Not how I wish it were.

But while I'm on the subject. We want:

Warrior
-to come equipped with multiple capped weapons for SC options.
-willingness to take one for the team (Shield Break)
-gear to tank
-reason to tank some of the time. But also DD often. And incentive to enjoy both roles.

You can come with multiple capped weapons for SC option.
You can take one for the team.
You do have tanking gear.
You do have a reason to tank, its NEEDED sometimes.

Red Mage
-reason to enfeeble.
-reason to nuke occasionally?
-reason to melee occasionally?
-incentive to main heal sometimes, without it becoming their full time job.

Stop going to camps where you can't.
Stop going to camps where you can't.
Build your own PTs. Problem solved.
Stop taking main healer invites. You have Refresh, Haste and Dispel as your calling cards, it tends to get you what you want. Problem solved.

Blue Mage
-reason to do everything their job has to offer instead of DD spell spam. Method to keep them from adopting full time support role.

How does SE create a "method" to prevent these things? SE cannot stop humans from taking the path of least resistance. They designed these elements into the job, yet you don't have the balls to tell the BLUs you invite what you need from them?

If you need them to help cure, I've met very few that object to that, they'll gladly set the spell, just ask. That's not asking them to become a cure bot, that's asking them to spot the mages as needed. Ask them to get Sanction, ask them to set Auto-Refresh, hell just know stuff about BLU so they can't bullshit you.

Noticing a trend? A method for "hybrid" jobs to stay hybrids. Something that prevents the player base from doing what humans naturally do -- value specialization. Red Mage: the Christopher Walken of mages.

There is no such "method."

SE can't do anything about players that are too nice to tell other players what they need from them. I, on the other hand, will kick you if you're not bringing what I need to a PT, Mission or whatever. I have sent people away because I felt they were not prepared or ready.

I'm here to have fun, but what I'm not here to do is waste my time pandering to your personal wants and needs. If you want EXP, if you want mission wins, if you want access to all those nifty endgame zones and widgets there's a way to get there, but its not by playing favorites and meeting all your own personal needs 100% of the time.

If you are a versatile job and opt not to be versatile, that's your own damn fault and you have no right to complain about it. Taskmage still enfeebles, nukes and such in his PTs, even if he does heal a bit. I can't remember a level of RDM where I didn't attend to every last one of my mage duties. I was as familiar with Regens as I was with my nukes. I don't see ANY PTs telling a RDM to not nuke.

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Great job, BBQ!

You've managed to twice in this thread completely misunderstand what I'm getting at!

There is no such "method."

Abraham Lincoln: "Hmm yeah, those people living in the south sure like their slaves. It's much easier for them to own other people, and we're never going to convince them they're wrong... hmm, maybe this Emancipation Proclamation I was gonna present to the people is a bad idea afterall. If only there was a method of making them see clearly... oh yeah, that's what we had a war for."

I'm sorry for the shoddy analogy, I'll try to be direct and clear as possible:

All of your counterpoints to my little chart consist of "you can if you want to" but who in their right mind would?

That list was meant to show things that can already be done, but never actually happen. So instead of telling me why these things that I know are possible are possible, think about why I'd ever do those things outside of "having fun, just to do something new." Because that will never motivate a RDM+BRD to join a party with a SMN/sam. I can't even get my friends and LS to let me come war/sam most of the time, for crying out loud. And with good reason. My other 5 aren't given much incentive, eh?

[Ziero]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

That list was meant to show things that can already be done, but never actually happen. So instead of telling me why these things that I know are possible are possible, think about why I'd ever do those things outside of "having fun, just to do something new." Because that will never motivate a RDM+BRD to join a party with a SMN/sam. I can't even get my friends and LS to let me come war/sam most of the time, for crying out loud. And with good reason. My other 5 aren't given much incentive, eh?

...the problem is, he's right. I know this because I've SEEN all that stuff done in game. I've had 60+ pts where Rdms threw out a nuke and enfeebled, there are times in the game where I tank as War, and I don't know what kind of crappy Blu you know that do nothing but DD spam, but the few Blus I know, that actually bother to get their spells, *use* their cures and debuffs ALONG with their absurdly high DD potential. If your friends don't let you go War/Sam, that's their fault not the games because that combination can work in an Exp pt, as well as other places outside of Exp...like the rest of the entire game. Infact most assaults I do are War/Sam as long as I have at least two support classes in my group, one of whom, more often then not, is a Rdm who nukes AND debuffs for fights we do.

And always remember, there is more to this game then Exp parties.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

All of your counterpoints to my little chart consist of "you can if you want to" but who in their right mind would?

Apparently very strong-willed and accomplished players with some initiative. God knows if a Warrior really wants a mission win, he'll do what he has to regardless of what would be more "efficient."

I couldn't give a damn if you can't get a PT to go with your RDM to the Boyahada Tree just so you can nuke and enfeeble, but if you keep trying, it can happen. ToA camps and their shoddy hub design, in addition to players to lazy to obtain outposts, make that difficult, but I've still had parties in CoP and Zilart camps post-55. Hell, I had an Lufaise Meadow PT where the RDM meleed in the midst of ToA. I wasn't impressed with the RDM melee, but we had fun otherwise.

These parties can and still do happen. I had a BLM and RDM in my LS camp there for EXP last week because they were invited, of all things, to camp and fight crawlers in the the tree. It still happens.

I can't even get my friends and LS to let me come war/sam most of the time, for crying out loud. And with good reason. My other 5 aren't given much incentive, eh?

Then your "friends" aren't really your friends. I can go RNG/WAR whenever I want and no one says "no" to me about it. Try growing a spine, stand up for what you want. If you can't do that, no one will respect you.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

. . .

I should preface myself again by saying that I haven't leveled smn signficantly so my opinions on the matter should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, it's my impression that people don't invite smns, they invite /whms. Nobody ever thinks "This nin would be untouchable with Earthen Ward" or "With Aerial Armor this TP-burn could all switch to more effective DD subs without putting too much strain on the healer" or "Meteorite MB would be great at this level" and certainly not "Imagine how much more damage these mnks and thfs and nins would be doing with Rolling Thunder." Instead it's "We need Cures and this /whm is all that's seeking" with any additional benefits provided by smn main as an afterthought at best.

I'm all for subjob flexibility and I think it would be great if smns got that. Barring that, I'm all for choosing the subjob that best supplements your job and I'm fine with that sub being whm for smn. But what I'm really getting at is that people should be able to look at a main job smn and see something worth inviting before considering how the subjob choice affects that evaluation.