Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Saren]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

First off I wanted to say I love the question and I think it's really well worded. SE seem to be a bit full of suprises at the moment (2hand update, scholar) and it would be interesting to see if they will hint at some more.

Fundamentally, cure bot'ing seems boring because there isn't enough to do, and what there is to do isn't important enough.
...
Healer in general--and White Mage in particular--is exciting to play when there's danger; it is the pillar which keeps the sky from crushing the party.

I have to say this, and several other things in the post, hit the nail on the head for me. What I love about whm is when I get to make the party run smoothly quietly from the background and then, because I have cast intelligently and anticipated the mob well, have the mp and the time to jump in an help save the day when things go wrong. Without getting occasionally to jump in and save the day, it gets a little flat.

At the moment in good parties I don't really feel like I have enough to do, even in parties with barely any nin or /nin and a pld tank. I seem to spend a lot of my standing up time waiting for the haste recast to be up with nothing useful to cast and not quite enough time to grab a tick of rest. I have guilty pleasure when we have a slightly bad tank or something so I have more to do.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I agree about the grind. It is the single greatest factor in detracting players from this game and what makes WoW so damn popular (among other things)


WoW has nine million subscribers, while we have 1/18 of that. Why? Because no one likes to spend hours just trying to get a party for 1 lousy level (if that) or racking up money etc.

I'm not saying SE should make the game easy, but they could tone it down a bit at least when it comes to EXP. Parties should be fun, and hard mobs (or rather standard pre-ToAU I should say) should be properly rewarding for their relative difficulty. IMO, this is the hardest thing for SE to grasp. The concept of Time:Rewards seems to elude ever still.


God forbid a SAM could sub BLM and have fun making their own SC + MB for example (anyone who wants to pipe with "Oh, but BLU can do that already" is obviously missing the point here)

[Mhurron]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

God forbid a SAM could sub BLM and have fun making their own SC + MB for example

There is nothing in the games mechanics stopping a SAM from doing that.

[Feba]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Because no one likes to spend hours just trying to get a party for 1 lousy level (if that) or racking up money etc.

Or possibly it's because Blizzard already had a very very large fanbase playing online games.

or because Blizzard has put a lot of money into advertising and hype.

Or it could be because a lot of people already play it, and it's become such a social place that even people that hate it join in (look at myspace)

Really, WoW has a ton of advantages over FFXI. FFXI's gameplay is about the smallest problem.

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

There is nothing in the games mechanics stopping a SAM from doing that.

You're trying to allude to the fact that it's the player base that makes the decisions, not S-E, right?

What if in the WotG update, Red Mages were given Flash, Stun, and Provoke. You don't think Rdm/nins would start tanking? What if Ninjas lost all dual wield except for the first trait, and Utsusemi:Ni only gave 1 shadow when subbed. What if all skillchains became 100% accurate (so every darkness is an extra WS or WS.5 worth of damage).

It's true that the players make the decisions. But it's so easy to provide the illusion of choice. Dark Knight was certainly not built as a main healer. Yet it has just as many cure spells as a Summoner, which most certainly has become a healer. A+ Scythe, attack bonus traits-> obviously gonna melee; B rank staff, mage HP-> not gonna melee.

[Mhurron]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

You're trying to allude to the fact that it's the player base that makes the decisions, not S-E, right?

Oh you're good.

What if in the WotG update, Red Mages were given Flash, Stun, and Provoke. You don't think Rdm/nins would start tanking? What if Ninjas lost all dual wield except for the first trait, and Utsusemi:Ni only gave 1 shadow when subbed. What if all skillchains became 100% accurate (so every darkness is an extra WS or WS.5 worth of damage).

Ok, no you're not. There is nothing stopping a player going SAM/BLM and doing a Blizzard MB off of Distortion. The game lets you do this, no changes need to be made. You then try to compare that to situations where changes do need to be made. One of these things is not like the other.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

If this game didn't require nearly as much grinding as it currently does, you might see the player base willing to loosen up and allow some more "fun" approaches to be taken.

Trimming the EXP curve has already proven the opposite of what you claim it would solve. People didn't loosen up, they got even more obsessive about it. So I don't think dumbing the EXP curve down would improve the situation, it would only serve to worsen it.

Any by making merits and levels easier to obtain, by making more jobs more soloable, you end up turning FFXI into the big lie WoW happens to be. FFXI shows you there's competition from the start, WoW lures you in by trying to get you to overlook that fact before endgame and that is the biggest issue with WoW, people have more fun with the grind and PvP than they do endgame. FFXI its just the other way around.

Our endgame isn't perfect, but at least we weren't spoiled on soloing before we got there.

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Our endgame isn't perfect, but at least we weren't spoiled on soloing before we got there.

Says the BST :P
j/k

19 levels of soloing on wow and i quit. Why, cause its soloing. With more exp to make than 1-19 on here. And, no music during fights to amp it up like FFXI does. Plus a few, mishaps of getting killed by hordes <.<; At least i manage to return the favor! <.<;

Boost CoP/RoZ exp from thier endgame mobs and lessen ToAU, lets say by a nice clean 50% Then give ToAU mobs a nice PLD def. monk hp with a Whirl of Rage and Blaster. Problem solved ^.^

[Murphie]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Aka, you were clearly doing it wrong.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Trimming the EXP curve has already proven the opposite of what you claim it would solve. People didn't loosen up, they got even more obsessive about it. So I don't think dumbing the EXP curve down would improve the situation, it would only serve to worsen it.

Any by making merits and levels easier to obtain, by making more jobs more soloable, you end up turning FFXI into the big lie WoW happens to be. FFXI shows you there's competition from the start, WoW lures you in by trying to get you to overlook that fact before endgame and that is the biggest issue with WoW, people have more fun with the grind and PvP than they do endgame. FFXI its just the other way around.

Our endgame isn't perfect, but at least we weren't spoiled on soloing before we got there.

"Trimming" the exp curve made players more obsessive? I'd like to know what you're basing that conclusion on. You may have observed increased efficiency obsessiveness in your own personal experiences right around the time the exp curve trimming occurred. However, anecdotal evidence is not hard proof of an increasing trend in obsessiveness over efficiency.

And even if you could prove that the player base has gotten more obsessive, correlation is not the same as causation. There are plenty of other factors that could have driven the increased fixation with efficiency. What about the fact that the merit system has been expanded, with group II merits requiring players to spend even more time gaining merits? It could also simply be a function of time. With each new job a player gets up to 75, the more likely they are to be focussed on exp efficiency. Someone who has been playing this game for 4 years is more likely to be focussed on efficiency than someone who has only played a year.

I'm not suggesting FFXI should be more like WoW. But you can't ignore the impact of FFXI's game design on the type of players it tends to attract (and keep). Casual players tend to be more laid back and forgiving of the less-than-optimal. Hardcore players tend to be the opposite. FFXI has more appeal for hardcore gamers than for casual gamers.

[tdh]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Two handed weapons, very nice, yet very damaging. Now the ToAU areas, 2handers and a mage is the only way to go otherwise you're lol. All single handers were badly burned by this. THF and MNK haven't gotten anything of use outside of group two merits. THF easily by todays standards is just a subjob like whm to rdm. THF's defining quality has been taken as a two handed weapon user's own main ability. Dagger being only real weapon of choice is nothing more but lolthf in the eyes of sam/thf, drk/thf and war/thf. BLU easily lands any kind of physical spell with SA and TA in an almost broken manner. MNK is probally gonna get to an early lol status i can feel it. H2H either needs a change or be considered a two handed weapon. And the possiblity of new abilities, skills or traits to open up.

Honestly I don't think the two handed update was as damaging as some point out. I DRKs and DRGs still spend quite a bit of time seeking, and MNK and WAR invites haven't suffered since the 2nd or 3rd week after the update.

Now THF are still in the same position they were in pre-2handed update, and I don't think MNK needs much. Insane means to build TP, Haste+18~22% with out trying, access to a lot of great gear. Their problem is nobody wants them until later levels. I still think Grips should be giving Haste+10% instead of DA that doesn't proc very often, Crit hits don't hurt but don't help as much as Haste would, and STR is easy to come by. THFs need help. Perhaps the original SATA fix needs to be reversed?

P.S. We don't need more tank jobs. We need more ways to make WAR and BLU tanks more attractive. Having those jobs both pigeonholed into DD by player mentality is what creates a tank shortage (and in BLU's case, contributes to a healer shortage too, although SCH will probably already alleviate that one somewhat).

I disagree here. Yes, WAR AF does have the most Enmity of any job in the game, but in order for a WAR to tank, they need an enormous amount of support. Go NIN? 3 Shadows their entire tanking life span, and they'll never be able to use it effectively enough to mitigate damage. Go MNK? As much as I'd like to see WAR/MNK back (And thought we might after the 2handed update.), you can't count on the Counter and the increased HP isn't going to be that much of a God send. /SAM? Seigan/3rd Eye aren't even a true full time option for SAMs.

BLU, now I will say that BLU could very well tank, and I've seen them do it. But they did get dumped into the DD role. I have also seen very competent BLU main heals.

There is nothing in the games mechanics stopping a SAM from doing that.

I don't think the debate is over the game mechanics though. We're trying to find a balance between user based "adjustments" and the jobs themselves. Of course I could go SAM/BLM and MB my own Skillchain but what are the points of doing so? Weak damage? Lose of DoT? MP consumption? The user base decided that this holds back a party, something I don't think anybody would argue otherwise.

I think what a lot of us are looking for, is a reason to nudge the sheep in another direction. Encourage more parties with tanks. Encourage more parties that allow jobs to do their actual job. Give us a reason to invite a THF instead of a /THF. Create a reason for SMN to be a pure support mage, not a /WHM.

[Feba]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Trimming the EXP curve has already proven the opposite of what you claim it would solve. People didn't loosen up, they got even more obsessive about it.

Remove the entire EXP system.


It's the only way to be sure.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

P.S. We don't need more tank jobs. We need more ways to make WAR and BLU tanks more attractive. Having those jobs both pigeonholed into DD by player mentality is what creates a tank shortage (and in BLU's case, contributes to a healer shortage too, although SCH will probably already alleviate that one somewhat).

Actually, I've always thought that Blue Mages have learned from Red Mages, and disallow themselves from doing anything from damage: otherwise, noybody would want a Blue Mage for anything but support. I figure maybe some of the people who leveled the job forced themselves to be pidgeonholed in to Damage Dealing, because they saw having to support like a Red Mage as arduous. They didn't want a Red Mage repeat, so to say.

It has been quite cleverly pulled off, to be honest. I wouldn't be surprised if half of the Blue Mages out there are former Red Mages who haven't looked back ever since.

EDIT: Also, Pride is a sin. Mandatory nitpick.

Make the role more important, and WHM, RDM, and SMN can all call themselves as healers with pride. WHM should be the reigning king, but the RDM and SMN each can claim unique, nifty tools, of course.

* * *

Can you tell I'm sick of RDMs whining about having to be healers? :p My RDM/WHM is not as good of a healer as true WHMs, but I will keep a party standing called to be a healer-and, yes, I do it with pride--and with at least a Paralyze every fight.

These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

I think it has more to do with the whole bait-and-switch thing going on, as I implied with the Blue Mages avoiding.

"Trimming" the exp curve made players more obsessive? I'd like to know what you're basing that conclusion on. You may have observed increased efficiency obsessiveness in your own personal experiences right around the time the exp curve trimming occurred. However, anecdotal evidence is not hard proof of an increasing trend in obsessiveness over efficiency.

And even if you could prove that the player base has gotten more obsessive, correlation is not the same as causation. There are plenty of other factors that could have driven the increased fixation with efficiency. What about the fact that the merit system has been expanded, with group II merits requiring players to spend even more time gaining merits? It could also simply be a function of time. With each new job a player gets up to 75, the more likely they are to be focussed on exp efficiency. Someone who has been playing this game for 4 years is more likely to be focussed on efficiency than someone who has only played a year.

I'm not suggesting FFXI should be more like WoW. But you can't ignore the impact of FFXI's game design on the type of players it tends to attract (and keep). Casual players tend to be more laid back and forgiving of the less-than-optimal. Hardcore players tend to be the opposite. FFXI has more appeal for hardcore gamers than for casual gamers.

I think you missed O-kitten's point:

There is an easier method of gathering experience introduced in to the game by S-E, with the intention of allowing players to be more flexible in their playing in order to have more fun.

What do you think players are actually going to do: loosen up and get the same experience that they've been getting all along, or start focusing on strictness and efficiency even further in order to earn as much exp from the easier source as humanly possible?

Obviously, "trimming" the curve only cycles the problem, potentially making it even worse as the standard of exp/hour rises. I think that was what O-kitten was stating.

Perhaps the original SATA fix needs to be reversed?

If you're suggesting the return of yokodama, that would be a boon to THFs and /THFs alike. It will do nothing for the problem stated.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Remove the entire EXP system.


It's the only way to be sure.

Final Fantasy Crossing, featuring chibi-mithra?

[Murphie]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Final Fantasy Crossing, featuring chibi-mithra?

I would probably play.