Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

My point was FFXI is a massive time sink in a lot of areas compared to WoW, and that's what kills it. Pretty much everyone I've spoken to who plays WoW loves how they can just log in and get right into the thick of things for the majority of activities.

Even a few of my own friends tried FFXI for a while, but quit because they just didn't want to commit to the long (and often unrewarding) times. Obviously this isn't the case for everyone, or the game wouldn't still have 500k people (myself included) playing, but you can't ignore it as a factor.

The problem is it's a very tricky one, because if SE screws up, then the game becomes too easy and the thrill of the challenge is lost. I simply think that the challenges presented by the game should be worth the time and effort put in, which they often aren't (NMs...)

As an example, someone on here said once that the challenge of an HNM should not be in getting the claim, but in bringing it down. I agree with this philosophy whole heartedly for all aspects of FFXI.


EDIT: The thing about SAM/BLM is, the game doesn't stop you from doing so, but because of the mechanics involved it is far from practical, unlike in say FFV or FFT where you can do whatever you like. This game's beauty is in the job system, but because of how skills are handled, potentially fun combos just don't work.

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Now THF are still in the same position they were in pre-2handed update, and I don't think MNK needs much. Insane means to build TP, Haste+18~22% with out trying, access to a lot of great gear. Their problem is nobody wants them until later levels.

What, monks? Are you kidding? Monks kick ass from level 1 on.

Thieves, arguably, still have some problems. Assassin is nice, but the high level dagger WS are all multihits with limited capacity to benefit from SATA, so THF's spike damage doesn't stand out much compared to SAM/THF or DRK/THF's spike damage - and their DoT is still based on a pathetically low damage dagger. (Low delay doesn't fully compensate - even Triple Attack doesn't bring them up to par with other DDs.) Maybe daggers and dagger WS are already under review in connection with Dancer. Otherwise they'll probably continue to lack overall damage compared to NIN, WAR, MNK, DRG, SAM... and their hate manipulation isn't outstandingly stronger than SAM/THF or DRK/THF.

I still think Grips should be giving Haste+10% instead of DA that doesn't proc very often, Crit hits don't hurt but don't help as much as Haste would, and STR is easy to come by.

2handers already have access to 10% haste though Hasso. Another 10% through grips would be insane.

There *is* a 3% delay reduction grip; it doesn't seem to be very popular though.

(re: my comment about WAR and BLU tanks)
I disagree here. Yes, WAR AF does have the most Enmity of any job in the game, but in order for a WAR to tank, they need an enormous amount of support. Go NIN? 3 Shadows their entire tanking life span, and they'll never be able to use it effectively enough to mitigate damage. Go MNK? As much as I'd like to see WAR/MNK back (And thought we might after the 2handed update.), you can't count on the Counter and the increased HP isn't going to be that much of a God send. /SAM? Seigan/3rd Eye aren't even a true full time option for SAMs.

Well, I thought it was implied that making them more effective would be one way to make them more attractive. But I think that if the party is set up accordingly, WAR/MNK can still be an effective tank at any level; it helps to have a couple people share healing, though (such as RDM+SMN or RDM+BLU). Counter isn't reliable but it can stop a couple hits per fight - while also dealing damage back to the mob. And WAR/MNK's raw hate generation is hard to match with provoke + boost spam + extra hate from counters. (I do think they benefit more from axe+shield though, so I don't think the 2hand update would really help them much. Counter + shield means a significant reduction in the number of full damage hits.)

You aren't mentioning WAR/BLU, which needs refresh but can achieve ridiculous DEF without sacrificing much damage to do it (i.e. no need for defense food), while still having stuns and other blue magic for hate in addition to provoke and limited self-heal capability (tiny manapool, but with enough refresh that isn't necessarily a showstopper). I haven't seen much of it but it looks good with the right setup. Two refreshers (one can be a RDM doubling as main healer) would probably be good - but it might also be possible to do with RDM+DNC or RDM+SCH, depending on what those jobs are capable of.

I agree that WAR/NIN is a terrible tank build before 74 and not so great after (as a full-time tank), but it's far from the only option available to tanking WAR.

I think what a lot of us are looking for, is a reason to nudge the sheep in another direction. Encourage more parties with tanks. Encourage more parties that allow jobs to do their actual job. Give us a reason to invite a THF instead of a /THF. Create a reason for SMN to be a pure support mage, not a /WHM.

I agree (except maybe the SMN; I have no problem with support healing alongside BP use, I think players just try to force them to be the *only* healer in the party because there aren't enough others seeking, a role they clearly weren't designed for and don't excel in.)

Most importantly, players should expect that if they want decent exp, they're going to have to fight things that can and will hurt them. And if they want to not die, then they need some defensive players in the party, that keep the party alive by either taking the hits (for less damage than Mr. Berserk DRK), preventing the damage, healing it or some combination of those things. (And ditto for non-damage effects.)


I'd also like to commend Itazura's post about the good things about WHM; I'd say that wants to make me play WHM some more, but I know that there's no chance in the modern era of going to Onzozo where the WHM can make or break the party. Like other ToAU era WHMs, I'd be reduced to tossing a few cures that the party doesn't really need except to reduce their downtime. It's a sad state for the job that once kept me alive and in fighting condition against the attacks of dozens of different monster types.

Actually, I do have one thing to add: Too much of WHM is available through /WHM. They need more unique spells/abilities above level 38. Amnesia-na, barelements II that provide a Rampart-like absorb against that type of damage (only), barstatus II that gives a one-time immunity shield (you resist the effect but the barspell wears off instantly, requiring the WHM to stay in party and recast it as needed), Stoneskin II (castable on one target party member) and several others have been suggested in past threads IIRC. Pick one - or several - and get started. Endgame WHM are at least in considerable demand - raise 3/reraise 3 are very significant spells, -na spells can really matter in certain fights, and cure V sees a lot of use - but in 50+ exp WHM don't have a lot to bring to most parties (since they can easily avoid monsters that use a status effect that can't be removed by /WHMs).

I *would* suggest not nerfing /WHM, but instead buffing main WHMs at higher levels. Support curing is beneficial to the game in general (IMO), it's just that main WHMs don't bring much *other* than cures and slightly stronger protectra/shellra to an exp party.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

You don't like being caught under Feba's explosion?

Try checking the bottom of the previous page, and you'll see what I mean.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

This is why I don't like making a post at the bottom of a page.

You don't like being caught under Feba's explosion?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Great, now, if only for a horrifying instant, I've had to think of Feba's pants.

This is why I don't like making a post at the bottom of a page.

[Murphie]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Great, now, if only for a horrifying instant, I've had to think of Feba's pants.

[Feba]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

That idea is just a cuteness explosion.


In my pants.

[Murphie]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Final Fantasy Crossing, featuring chibi-mithra?

I would probably play.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Remove the entire EXP system.


It's the only way to be sure.

Final Fantasy Crossing, featuring chibi-mithra?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

P.S. We don't need more tank jobs. We need more ways to make WAR and BLU tanks more attractive. Having those jobs both pigeonholed into DD by player mentality is what creates a tank shortage (and in BLU's case, contributes to a healer shortage too, although SCH will probably already alleviate that one somewhat).

Actually, I've always thought that Blue Mages have learned from Red Mages, and disallow themselves from doing anything from damage: otherwise, noybody would want a Blue Mage for anything but support. I figure maybe some of the people who leveled the job forced themselves to be pidgeonholed in to Damage Dealing, because they saw having to support like a Red Mage as arduous. They didn't want a Red Mage repeat, so to say.

It has been quite cleverly pulled off, to be honest. I wouldn't be surprised if half of the Blue Mages out there are former Red Mages who haven't looked back ever since.

EDIT: Also, Pride is a sin. Mandatory nitpick.

Make the role more important, and WHM, RDM, and SMN can all call themselves as healers with pride. WHM should be the reigning king, but the RDM and SMN each can claim unique, nifty tools, of course.

* * *

Can you tell I'm sick of RDMs whining about having to be healers? :p My RDM/WHM is not as good of a healer as true WHMs, but I will keep a party standing called to be a healer-and, yes, I do it with pride--and with at least a Paralyze every fight.

These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

I think it has more to do with the whole bait-and-switch thing going on, as I implied with the Blue Mages avoiding.

"Trimming" the exp curve made players more obsessive? I'd like to know what you're basing that conclusion on. You may have observed increased efficiency obsessiveness in your own personal experiences right around the time the exp curve trimming occurred. However, anecdotal evidence is not hard proof of an increasing trend in obsessiveness over efficiency.

And even if you could prove that the player base has gotten more obsessive, correlation is not the same as causation. There are plenty of other factors that could have driven the increased fixation with efficiency. What about the fact that the merit system has been expanded, with group II merits requiring players to spend even more time gaining merits? It could also simply be a function of time. With each new job a player gets up to 75, the more likely they are to be focussed on exp efficiency. Someone who has been playing this game for 4 years is more likely to be focussed on efficiency than someone who has only played a year.

I'm not suggesting FFXI should be more like WoW. But you can't ignore the impact of FFXI's game design on the type of players it tends to attract (and keep). Casual players tend to be more laid back and forgiving of the less-than-optimal. Hardcore players tend to be the opposite. FFXI has more appeal for hardcore gamers than for casual gamers.

I think you missed O-kitten's point:

There is an easier method of gathering experience introduced in to the game by S-E, with the intention of allowing players to be more flexible in their playing in order to have more fun.

What do you think players are actually going to do: loosen up and get the same experience that they've been getting all along, or start focusing on strictness and efficiency even further in order to earn as much exp from the easier source as humanly possible?

Obviously, "trimming" the curve only cycles the problem, potentially making it even worse as the standard of exp/hour rises. I think that was what O-kitten was stating.

Perhaps the original SATA fix needs to be reversed?

If you're suggesting the return of yokodama, that would be a boon to THFs and /THFs alike. It will do nothing for the problem stated.

[Feba]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Trimming the EXP curve has already proven the opposite of what you claim it would solve. People didn't loosen up, they got even more obsessive about it.

Remove the entire EXP system.


It's the only way to be sure.

[tdh]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Two handed weapons, very nice, yet very damaging. Now the ToAU areas, 2handers and a mage is the only way to go otherwise you're lol. All single handers were badly burned by this. THF and MNK haven't gotten anything of use outside of group two merits. THF easily by todays standards is just a subjob like whm to rdm. THF's defining quality has been taken as a two handed weapon user's own main ability. Dagger being only real weapon of choice is nothing more but lolthf in the eyes of sam/thf, drk/thf and war/thf. BLU easily lands any kind of physical spell with SA and TA in an almost broken manner. MNK is probally gonna get to an early lol status i can feel it. H2H either needs a change or be considered a two handed weapon. And the possiblity of new abilities, skills or traits to open up.

Honestly I don't think the two handed update was as damaging as some point out. I DRKs and DRGs still spend quite a bit of time seeking, and MNK and WAR invites haven't suffered since the 2nd or 3rd week after the update.

Now THF are still in the same position they were in pre-2handed update, and I don't think MNK needs much. Insane means to build TP, Haste+18~22% with out trying, access to a lot of great gear. Their problem is nobody wants them until later levels. I still think Grips should be giving Haste+10% instead of DA that doesn't proc very often, Crit hits don't hurt but don't help as much as Haste would, and STR is easy to come by. THFs need help. Perhaps the original SATA fix needs to be reversed?

P.S. We don't need more tank jobs. We need more ways to make WAR and BLU tanks more attractive. Having those jobs both pigeonholed into DD by player mentality is what creates a tank shortage (and in BLU's case, contributes to a healer shortage too, although SCH will probably already alleviate that one somewhat).

I disagree here. Yes, WAR AF does have the most Enmity of any job in the game, but in order for a WAR to tank, they need an enormous amount of support. Go NIN? 3 Shadows their entire tanking life span, and they'll never be able to use it effectively enough to mitigate damage. Go MNK? As much as I'd like to see WAR/MNK back (And thought we might after the 2handed update.), you can't count on the Counter and the increased HP isn't going to be that much of a God send. /SAM? Seigan/3rd Eye aren't even a true full time option for SAMs.

BLU, now I will say that BLU could very well tank, and I've seen them do it. But they did get dumped into the DD role. I have also seen very competent BLU main heals.

There is nothing in the games mechanics stopping a SAM from doing that.

I don't think the debate is over the game mechanics though. We're trying to find a balance between user based "adjustments" and the jobs themselves. Of course I could go SAM/BLM and MB my own Skillchain but what are the points of doing so? Weak damage? Lose of DoT? MP consumption? The user base decided that this holds back a party, something I don't think anybody would argue otherwise.

I think what a lot of us are looking for, is a reason to nudge the sheep in another direction. Encourage more parties with tanks. Encourage more parties that allow jobs to do their actual job. Give us a reason to invite a THF instead of a /THF. Create a reason for SMN to be a pure support mage, not a /WHM.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Trimming the EXP curve has already proven the opposite of what you claim it would solve. People didn't loosen up, they got even more obsessive about it. So I don't think dumbing the EXP curve down would improve the situation, it would only serve to worsen it.

Any by making merits and levels easier to obtain, by making more jobs more soloable, you end up turning FFXI into the big lie WoW happens to be. FFXI shows you there's competition from the start, WoW lures you in by trying to get you to overlook that fact before endgame and that is the biggest issue with WoW, people have more fun with the grind and PvP than they do endgame. FFXI its just the other way around.

Our endgame isn't perfect, but at least we weren't spoiled on soloing before we got there.

"Trimming" the exp curve made players more obsessive? I'd like to know what you're basing that conclusion on. You may have observed increased efficiency obsessiveness in your own personal experiences right around the time the exp curve trimming occurred. However, anecdotal evidence is not hard proof of an increasing trend in obsessiveness over efficiency.

And even if you could prove that the player base has gotten more obsessive, correlation is not the same as causation. There are plenty of other factors that could have driven the increased fixation with efficiency. What about the fact that the merit system has been expanded, with group II merits requiring players to spend even more time gaining merits? It could also simply be a function of time. With each new job a player gets up to 75, the more likely they are to be focussed on exp efficiency. Someone who has been playing this game for 4 years is more likely to be focussed on efficiency than someone who has only played a year.

I'm not suggesting FFXI should be more like WoW. But you can't ignore the impact of FFXI's game design on the type of players it tends to attract (and keep). Casual players tend to be more laid back and forgiving of the less-than-optimal. Hardcore players tend to be the opposite. FFXI has more appeal for hardcore gamers than for casual gamers.

[Murphie]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Aka, you were clearly doing it wrong.

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Our endgame isn't perfect, but at least we weren't spoiled on soloing before we got there.

Says the BST :P
j/k

19 levels of soloing on wow and i quit. Why, cause its soloing. With more exp to make than 1-19 on here. And, no music during fights to amp it up like FFXI does. Plus a few, mishaps of getting killed by hordes <.<; At least i manage to return the favor! <.<;

Boost CoP/RoZ exp from thier endgame mobs and lessen ToAU, lets say by a nice clean 50% Then give ToAU mobs a nice PLD def. monk hp with a Whirl of Rage and Blaster. Problem solved ^.^