Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Instead of of repeatedly call for nerfing /WHM, why not focus on fixing SMN instead? If the job itself is robust enough, many support job options can be opened up. S-E is making a concerted effort to improve small grouping, so this is a perfect time to ask for adding additional capabilities instead of just nerfing*.

As far as I can tell, /WHM is helping SMN, BLM, RDM and others to get experience points instead of preventing them from getting parties. Nerfing /WHM is just not needed.

* Except for the two-handed weapons' output. I'd love to see S-E just reverse that entirely and don't fiddle with the damage formula again until they come up with a better solution. x_x;

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

* Except for the two-handed weapons' output. I'd love to see S-E just reverse that entirely and don't fiddle with the damage formula again until they come up with a better solution. x_x;

You've never been openly laughed at in a party for using a great axe in a party when you should be spamming rampage.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

No, the 2 handed weapon update is how it should have been from day fucking one.

And there's 2 reasons for /WHM nerf. #1 being how blatantly good it is over other /mage, and because it's about the only way to get SE to wake the fuck up and realize there's something horribly wrong with SMN.

[Pteryx]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I don't think the 2H update should be entirely reversed; 2H may need a nerf now, but it did need help before. Instead, it should just be toned down. Make two-handers get 3 Attack from 4 STR, neatly in between the old and the current way, and see how that works. The happy medium's certainly somewhere in the range of 2 Att from 3 STR to 4 Att from 5 STR... -- Pteryx

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

It's just fine as is. It seems from fan fest that they're expressly concerned with SAM. I'm betting on a Hasso or WS adjustment here.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

So SE should screw existing smns even more to make them realize how screwed smns are? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense ... I may as well give myself a black eye to convince myself I need plastic surgery.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

No, the 2 handed weapon update is how it should have been from day fucking one.

How the heck is it fair that two-handers get double the benefit from STR to attack and DEX to accuracy? I agree two-handed weapons should not be weak compared to one handed, but there should always be trade-offs--it should not be the case that one is always better than another.

Or would you just prefer every DD is a SAM?

A undisputed top DD makes it a broken DD, and strong players and weak monsters together make it a broken game. Dial back the two-handed weapon for now, restore a bit of balance, and then figure out how a better solution to achieve one-handed vs. two-handed balance--is that really so horrible?

And there's 2 reasons for /WHM nerf. #1 being how blatantly good it is over other /mage, and because it's about the only way to get SE to wake the fuck up and realize there's something horribly wrong with SMN.

You must really hate Summoners or something, demanding S-E to kick them while they are down. BTW, SMN adjustments have already been announced, so why not wait to see how that turns out before kicking SMNs out of party with a huge /WHM nerf?

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I still think from the get-go, they should've done .75 ratio. e.g. 1 handed weapons get 2 str to 1 attack (or 4 str for 2 attack), 2 handers would need 3 str for 2 attack. Right in between where it is now and where it used to be. I'd be satisfied with that. And I wouldn't feel like Zanshin became a marginal ability.

[Pteryx]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I still think from the get-go, they should've done .75 ratio. e.g. 1 handed weapons get 2 str to 1 attack (or 4 str for 2 attack), 2 handers would need 3 str for 2 attack. Right in between where it is now and where it used to be. I'd be satisfied with that. And I wouldn't feel like Zanshin became a marginal ability.

Your math's off. 3 STR for 2 Attack is 66.7% (and the lowest I'd accept as possibly being balanced). 75% would be 4 STR for 3 Attack, and is what I feel they should try. If 75% is too low -- and I doubt it would be -- then 80%, or 5 STR for 4 Attack, is what I feel they should try next. -- Pteryx

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

2H Weapons keep their 1 STR = 1 Attack, and the 1 DEX = 1 Accuracy adjustment is given to the 1H Weapons.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

No, the 2 handed weapon update is how it should have been from day fucking one.

No, it shouldn't.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I think I can agree with Yellow Mage's interpretation.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Endgame is a very fickle thing.

Big talk from somone that's not in endgame. If you are any kind of support class or mage, /WHM is a fixture there for many jobs and its a fixture for a reason.

It works.

And, if a Summoner's only incentive for invitation was to be another /WHM, I would personally prefer if they lost that one and got a real incentive for invitation (the part in bold's important, as that's the point you seem to be missing).

So your solution for headlice is decapitation? I'm "missing the point" because its not a point, its a bad idea. You're placing what you want for the job ahead of what your "solution" would do to the job. It would destroy what little SMN has to give now in EXP PTs. You'd be damning SMN to a career soloist job.

I don't need more "soloists" in my BSTs camps or my BST's ability to solo gimped for the sake of another job, so lets think of a REAL solution.

I still think that you're missing the point that, if a job is nothing more than their subjob, than there's a problem.

I think a lot of you - who don't have SMN level and, more notably, no support classes leveled - are just making a huge fuss over something you don't want to do and won't level the job because of it. Most of the 75 SMNs we do have here don't make so much of a fuss.

Next you'll cry and cry about having to spend money on tools and ammo for jobs like NIN, COR and RNG.

And where's the rage for NIN being pigeonholed as a tank? Some people would level that if it wasn't percieved as just a tank.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

On nin tanking, I would say nobody complains about it because it's fun. There are lots of moment to moment skilltests to perform and interesting choices to make about builds and playstyle. I would say those are the reasons why skillful players enjoy any job. As Itazura illustrated early on, people who like whm like it for many of the same reasons, it's just that fewer people are able to appreciate those nuances of that job. Taking it the other direction, I would guess that the lack of those things is why war tanking fell out of style, rather than a lack of effectiveness. There just isn't that much to do as a war tank other than keep beating the voke drum and balance berserk/defender usage, which isn't completely devoid of finesse but doesn't occupy that much of your time either.

Edit: Oh and people who would be interested in nin's alternate roles of ranged attacker and enfeebling support can get those playstyles elsewhere to different degrees in rdm and cor, and to a lesser extent rng and thf through bolts. Obviously if they want to play a DD with shadow support they can war/nin. Smn presents the promise of a unique play experience that no other job can compare to, but doesn't really deliver as people expect.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

There seems to be a lot of fire and brimstone over the "nerfing' of /WHM, that is will somehow herald the end of the game as we know it. Last I checked, whenever there was a major change, people bitched, adapted, and moved on. Experience parties and HNMs and events won't suddenly come grinding to a halt because healing suddenly takes more effort.

So what if it hurts SMN? It should. SMN 1-74 have been invited for little more than the only subjob that that provides any options, rather than for being a SMN.

Veteran SMN aren't fine with it, they've just become used to it for lack of other options. Knock the crutch for under them, they will fall, and it will become really apparent what SMN as a main is worth on it's own. Yes, they will flounder for awhile. They may even become the DRG of the era(no disrespect to DRGs, I'm simply referring to the rep), but since anyone only ever sees job health in terms of invites, if SMN's invites suffer, then that will be the big flare in S-E's face that some changes need to be made.



How about, instead of copping to the inconvenience of fixing Healing skill, acknowledging that maybe Healing skill should work just like every other skill? There's no reason C- or half-level skill should suit a party anywhere nearly as capably as A ranked skill. There should be no reason that just anyone can eek by with a bit of MND--or worse--just a lot of MP spamming Cures inefficiently.

The value of just about every other spell or weapon is reflected in the amount of skill the user has, Healing skill and Cures should be no different, even if it is inconvenient.