Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Taskmage]

There has been a longstanding difference between the interest of the playerbase in playing certain jobs and roles and the percieved need for those classes for forming successful parties and alliances. Over time, this has caused many players and jobs to become pigeonholed into roles that are less enjoyable to play. For example, many red mages and summoners feel their jobs' uniqueness is eclipsed by their ability to perform the critical healer position in a party, many players who have leveled bard feel trapped by the demand of their job into never getting to play anything else, and there is a general sentiment of there not being enough tanks to go around. What solutions are you considering to make more necessary roles more attractive to players?

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

This is really broad ... I tried to word it as clearly and concisely as possible, but if you guys have interest in making this one of our ten questions it could probably still use some cleanup and I welcome suggestions. I really believe this is the underlying problem with most of the job griping that's left in the game.

[Mhurron]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I really believe this is the underlying problem with most of the job griping that's left in the game.

For a lot of jobs, yes, the problem is the players and it's not something that can be fixed.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

For a lot of jobs, yes, the problem is the players and it's not something that can be fixed.

Not directly, but there are things that could be done to make the necessary roles more attractive to more players to indirectly alleviate the problem.

For the matter of main healing for example, nobody likes being a cure bot but it's so time and mp intensive to do that it's very hard to juggle along with things that people consider more fun, like meleeing, summoning or using damage spells. If the cast time and cost of curative spells was lower then versatile-type jobs that can cure could regain some of their versatility. As a side effect, the demand for refreshers might be slightly lessened. Thinking optimistically, this may be what they had in mind when they created White Grimoire.

Obviously it's a complex problem and I only took a stab at a small part of it, but there are things the developers can do to nudge player attitudes into directions that would make the game more fun for them.

[tdh]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I think it was worded well, and I agree that it's a problem that needs some attention. I was really hoping that the new expansion would introduce a new tanking class, and I don't see Dancer being a tank for those who still think that's what the job is.

In all previous FF games, I have gone through all the work to gain all the available Summons, side quest for them, as they were about as awesome as it got for most of the games. I enjoyed the story behind them, I enjoyed the challenge, and I enjoyed their power. FFXI SMN has been a sub job for a very long time. When I say subjob, I mean sub to other jobs like WHM/SMN and I mean being a WHM when they're actually a SMN/WHM.

Similar things have happened to RDM, as we are now Pimp Mages who's only role in the game is Healing Magic. I have no problem with putting my skills to use, but when one skill has become my only reason for being useful - which isn't out best skill - I take an issue. My favorite job has become my least used job because of this.

I'm all for fan base made adjustments. I think it's a great way to challenge the player and the developers, but there also has to be a balance. When a SMN is no longer (Never was) a SMN, something needs to be done. When RDM gets watered down, something needs to be done. When THFs are being replaced by anybody with /THF, something needs to happen. When the player base excludes another job because they don't "fit in" something needs to happen. Now the two handed update helped the two handers re-enter the TP Burn, but still didn't address their main problem. (DLY) TP Burns have still excluded BLMs, and vice versa with Manaburns. I really feel something needs to happen to bring the masses back together. We have a complete "generation" of BLMs who have no idea how to party. So the rare occasion that they are included with the melee world, they do not know how to function within the group. Same goes with a melees who complain when they die, but WS 2 seconds after initial pull. There's a rift between the jobs, and I for one would like to see it lessen, if not close.

It's been a long time since we heard the "all jobs will get an adjustment" announcement while only a small group of them appear to have received any love. New jobs to distract us from short comings only last for so long. Sorry to say I don't have any suggestions that wouldn't cause other problems, but we'd like to know if something is being done/tested to address any of these concerns.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I nominate this question to asked at Fan Fest above all others!

White Grimoire is one of the things to be considered, yes, but there's also Dancer, and it's TP-required Healing Steps. Those could be part of the solution, as well.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I think - much as Yellow Mage has added - that Jobs like Scholar and Dancer's ulterior design is to free up jobs like RDM and SMN from the healer role, in addtion to moving WHM back to the forefront.

If Dancer is a capable healer and can Haste allies, then MP endurance and RDM's Haste are less relevant, but it could also leave the specialist on White Magic some room to back a Dancer up. Scholar being able to change schools on the fly would also serve to take the pressure or RDM and SMN to main heal.

The thing is, this would take a great deal of time to change. I don't think even the ToA jobs have fully settled into the game yet. PUP is just finally coming into its own and CORs are still sparse. Not to mention many CORs ram their heads against the wall, misunderstanding the job and trying to play it exactly like a BRD when, in some ways, it has a lot more freedom than BRDs. BLU has conveniently pigeonholed itself as a DD, but I think players are going to get wise to those antics in time and see that they, too, are capable of support.

I for one, am no longer reliant on BRD nor do I feel boxed in as one - I have seen to that and anyone that wants to insist that I should play BRD for any situation other than those of my choosing can kindly piss off. Just because you are whipped on BRD does not mean you are owed a BRD. No one dictates what I play, not until you start paying my monthly fees and for my internet connection.

If I offer my BRD, then you may ask for it. If I say "RNG or COR?" then BRD clearly isn't among your options. If you want a BRD so bad, then you level one.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I for one, am no longer reliant on BRD nor do I feel boxed in as one - I have seen to that and anyone that wants to insist that I should play BRD for any situation other than those of my choosing can kindly piss off. Just because you are whipped on BRD does not mean you are owed a BRD. No one dictates what I play, not until you start paying my monthly fees and for my internet connection.

DAMN RIGHT!

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

If I offer my BRD, then you may ask for it. If I say "RNG or COR?" then BRD clearly isn't among your options. If you want a BRD so bad, then you level one.

While the rest of your post is spot-on, I feel the need to state that, if more people took this attitude to the game, I can't help but feel it'd be a better one.

[Nekoterra]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I for one think this sounds like the best question that I've seen, has a RDM the only invites I've had in the longest while have been for main healing, I don't complain about doing that but I would much rather do the job that I leveled RDM for it's like people think I like being a gimp WHM in my red armor

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I think the only way to make the player base less demanding in this respect is to reduce the amount of grinding required in this game. When it comes to exp/merits, it's not that the player base has chosen efficiency over fun. These activities are hardly fun to start with.

If this game didn't require nearly as much grinding as it currently does, you might see the player base willing to loosen up and allow some more "fun" approaches to be taken.

[Feba]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Really the only way people are going to feel free in their jobs is if you raise the EXP monsters give by quite a bit, but leave a capped, so all smaller and less powerful parties lose is EXP chain XP.

But that would probably make it far too easy to level.

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

All points are valid and true to the roots of the problem in my view.
Honestly, its gotten to a point where DD's don't know what areas like Cape Terrigen, Meadows, Sky, Valley of Sorrows, Moon and Labrnyth of Onzozo are for outside of HNMs, NMs and missions. Majority will hands down pick, Nyzle Isle mire or thickets, or Mamool Ja staging point or standard imp/fly camps. Root of the problem, this generation of dd/support/mages/tanks don't know what we grew up with in this game. And how things changed. All they know is ToAU. Until we strike a perfect rebalance, definined at before ToAU came out, for all mobs, this trend can and will continue. Ask a dd if they know what the Tormama do and why it can make or break a whm with in Onzozo, i doubt they'll know. It'll mobs are at the difficulty and provide the same challenge of what we know that was RoZ and CoP, this trend will stick forever. Signet changes were nice, but, it did little to shift the player base for Conquest zones.

Two handed weapons, very nice, yet very damaging. Now the ToAU areas, 2handers and a mage is the only way to go otherwise you're lol. All single handers were badly burned by this. THF and MNK haven't gotten anything of use outside of group two merits. THF easily by todays standards is just a subjob like whm to rdm. THF's defining quality has been taken as a two handed weapon user's own main ability. Dagger being only real weapon of choice is nothing more but lolthf in the eyes of sam/thf, drk/thf and war/thf. BLU easily lands any kind of physical spell with SA and TA in an almost broken manner. MNK is probally gonna get to an early lol status i can feel it. H2H either needs a change or be considered a two handed weapon. And the possiblity of new abilities, skills or traits to open up.

Those at least are main concerns I feel that should be brought up.


post number 1000 for me, yay.

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Well, if you mean is there some way to get the DD-only masses to play some useful jobs, probably not. Every other MMO has had the same problem. Allowing DD-heavy exp parties is sort of a solution for exp (although I wish they were only about as good as a conventional party instead of enormously better), but anything worthy of the term "endgame" is going to require real teamwork and tactics that can't be satisfied by 17 DD/NINs and one support job.

As far as the current job balance issues, I think a change to monster exp values that makes the RoZ and CoP camps more valuable, the ToAU camps less valuable (at least relatively) and/or introduces new, equally valuable camps on high level monsters would solve a lot of problems, and a nerf to subbed Utsusemi such as making it not 100% reliable (or maybe all Utsusemi, but in that case, it should be skill based so main NINs will keep 80-90% chance of having a shadow take the hit) would solve a lot of problems. Once those two changes are made we could take another look at the game and see if there were any additional changes necessary.

P.S. We don't need more tank jobs. We need more ways to make WAR and BLU tanks more attractive. Having those jobs both pigeonholed into DD by player mentality is what creates a tank shortage (and in BLU's case, contributes to a healer shortage too, although SCH will probably already alleviate that one somewhat).

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

For the matter of main healing for example, nobody likes being a cure bot but it's so time and mp intensive to do that it's very hard to juggle along with things that people consider more fun, like meleeing, summoning or using damage spells. If the cast time and cost of curative spells was lower then versatile-type jobs that can cure could regain some of their versatility.

I think you're very wrong here--and I'm likely to be the only one. XD "Cure bot" is boring to play not because keeping the party healthy is a boring thing to do, nor because it takes time away from "other stuff", and definitely not because it's takes MP away.

Fundamentally, cure bot'ing seems boring because there isn't enough to do, and what there is to do isn't important enough.

Talk with those career White Mage, and you'd see that what they love the most is being able to anticipate the status ailments and fix them before melees even notice them, or drop that Cure V in right before what would've been a death blow, and keep the tank upright and the alliance from wiping. It's about smartly take a few seconds to Regen II/III a DD as soon as the tank's Utusemi: Ni casting completes. It's eying the PLD's use of Sentinel and such to sneak in two ticks of MP rest, and magically have enough MP to save everyone from death when monsters run amok a minute later. It's tossing that stressed out RDM a Devotion when he's down to 80 MP and still 90 seconds from next Convert, so he doesn't have a panic attack.

Healer in general--and White Mage in particular--is exciting to play when there's danger; it is the pillar which keeps the sky from crushing the party.


However, when there's no real tank, and you're just tossing periodic Curagas, sporadic Cure III's, and stuck on auto-repeat with Silena in a party full of Utsusemi'ed up DDs, that is boring. It's watching status effects which debilitate your PLD's tanking ability but nothing you can do about, and keep hearing other players that RDMs and SMNs can do just as good of job as you with all the Bar Spell, Regen, and Cure cast speed merits, etc., that will make you lose heart.

I'm probably at least as much of a broken record as Karinya here, but the weakness of monsters is one cause of this (and many other) problems. The strength of the front line players--defensive power of /NIN directly, and the damage output of DDs indirectly--is the other cause. Combined, the imbalance between players and monsters makes leveling a "healer job" boring to many, and make WHM, RDM, and SMN seem interchangeable.

Player mentality is part of it, but the game balance issues are the root causes of "Don't make me a cure bot!" syndrome.

Make the role more important, and WHM, RDM, and SMN can all call themselves as healers with pride. WHM should be the reigning king, but the RDM and SMN each can claim unique, nifty tools, of course.

* * *

Can you tell I'm sick of RDMs whining about having to be healers? :p My RDM/WHM is not as good of a healer as true WHMs, but I will keep a party standing called to be a healer-and, yes, I do it with pride--and with at least a Paralyze every fight.