What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

What about those us who enjoy being "Pink Mage" (as well as other roles we can play)? >_>;

Whatever S-E may or may not have intended, things are working out well for me. About the only time I don't like being RDM is when there's another RDM in the party, or when I'm the sole mage in the party.

[Karinya]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

Jack of All Trades, they said.
And yet we're Pink Mage.
That's totally what I wanted.

Well, put in your comment that you'll only join parties with a WHM. WHM+RDM make an amazing team; it's just wasted on the pathetic mobs most people exp on above 60 nowadays.

They need to do something about our ability to deal damage, because our ability to take damage certainly outclasses our ability to give damage.

With fast cast heals, stoneskin and blink, world-class sleep, gravity and bind kiting, the MP that just won't quit *and* flexible subjob choice (reraise, sleepga/warp/escape, fast cast utsusemi, flee, take your pick), we're the closest thing to immortal Vana'diel has. Real damage-dealing ability on top of that would be insane.

If you want BLU, it's right over there. But be prepared to give up a lot of the endurance and survivability tools that define RDM - because having both at once would be a new job: GOD.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

Woe is the Red Mage.

Your invite rate is high.
You are desired for endgame.
You can solo many mobs in the game.

Once upon a time, a Red Mage couldn't even get an invite.
What little endgame there was, White and Black Mage were preferred.
Soloing was an option at the time, but Red Mage had no endurance.

Then one day SE gave Red Mage Convert and Refresh.

And that is when RDM became loved.
But alas, RDM still had Cure spells and many used the "versatility" to fill the healer roles often demanded in parties.

You know what they say about feeding stray dogs? Well, you don't heal stray dogs if you want to cripple, nuke and melee their enemies, genius. But RDMs healed their parties anyway.

Then weak mobs became popular to EXP on. Pretty much went downhill from there.

So it really doesn't matter what SE's vision for RDM was, what RDM presently is has been cemented by the player base. Blame the RDMs who so eagerly sub /WHM and join every PT they're invited to. Sure as hell doesn't kill me shoot down PT invites if the role they need isn't what I'm in the mood for.

The problem with RDMs is, unlike their BRD and COR counterparts, they don't have the stones to say "no." But then, that's also because they've come to realize they're not the rare commodity they once were, I suppose. Everyone and their grandma has the "pimp hat" now, say "no" and they'll just find another to replace you.

There is not one thing SE can do for RDM's DD or anything that will change the situation, RDMs are going to have to change the situation for themselves.

Some do, but most don't. Most just complain.

This is so true. You hear a ton of RDMs bitching about why the job has changed for the worse, yet, they still accept those RDM/WHM main heal invites.

Well guess what! I don't! I get slow as shit merits on my RDM with my BLM boyfriend, and I have so much more fun. RDM is not what I wanted it to be. In parties where enfeebles and dispel actually meant something, where a full Refresh cycle was actually needed, those were the parties where I excelled as a RDM. Not those Regen/Haste/Cure II/Cure III/Maybe Curaga parties where I'm miserable.

Don't get me wrong. I like to heal people. I am leveling WHM, after all. I just know what RDM is really capable of and what we're really masters at, and it bothers me that we are expected to "settle" in order to get invites.

Thus, I duo merits with my guy, and while I don't get to be the RED mage per se, I don't have to be pink either.

[BurningPanther]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

They need to do something about our ability to deal damage, because our ability to take damage certainly outclasses our ability to give damage.

While it's not the solution to putting us on the frontline, I heartily believe that they key to improving RDM's damage output lies in improving Enspells.

Shorten the distance between breakpoints while increasing the damage cap, or simply introduce a second tier; either would introduce a new dimension to damage dealing within parties that is also uniquely RDM.

[Malacite]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

The fact that SE even gave RDM a role in this version is going against the core principals of RDM.


A jack of all trades does not specialize in anything, period.

[BurningPanther]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

The fact that SE even gave RDM a role in this version is going against the core principals of RDM.
A jack of all trades does not specialize in anything, period.

It was silly to even introduce RDM. The game doesn't cater well to classes without a specific identity.

Much like nature abhors a vacuum, MMOs abhor "Jacks of all Trades."


... but we're here now, and I don't see them removing RDM as a remedy, so they might as well do something to make it work.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

The role a rdm plays in the game is the choice of the player. If you don't want to be boxed into some role you don't want to play, then don't. Make friends, make your own pts and play the role that you prefer. Thats what a rdm is all about....choice.

As far as SE and the way they see rdm, I would hazard a bet that they think they've done a pretty darn good job and are happy with it.

[BurningPanther]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

We can spout noble personal philosophies and pretty ideals all we please, but so long as we don't argue the reality of the matter. The reality is that people, like all things, will take the path of least resistance. Even the majority of RDMs.

Hell, when ToAU was first released, nobody saw what would become of RDM. Even I couldn't see the future when my SAM buddy invited me to Bhaflau Thickets, offering the the insane exp rate chaining Puks and the occasional Mamool Ja, with a simple setup of four melees /NIN, a BRD, and myself main healing. Even I couldn't see the soul-sucking, amoral virus the phenomenon was to become.

At any rate, you talk about blaming the RDM community for not taking a stand against main healing, for pigeon-holing RDM in the place it is now. But while the cause is evident, none have any right in placing blame, since we all have a habit of going with the smoothest flow. Better instead to blame the FFXI community at large, for shunning BLM, shunning PLD, pushing WHM to second-choice healer, and eschewing hate management, as well as basic tactics(Skill Chains), in favor of more mindless hacking and slashing to satisfy their parser results.

But hey, don't blame the community at large, right? They're just doing what's most efficient, right?

If it were a simple matter of the game being the choice of the player, of playing RDM as a manner of choice, then I wouldn't have to worry about soloing(my personal choice), and sacrificing the merit-per-hour parties that require I put aside only my self-respect to main heal for them.

Am I comfortable with the fact that playing how I choose might cost me significantly? Actually, I am. I haven't been in a party outside of large-scale events for six months now, and haven't looked back.

However, I have a rather large beef when choosing to play a job as it was intended somehow becomes anathema, while playing it was a watered-down version of another sees boundless reward. A bigger beef still, when people somehow think that's solely the fault in social consciousness of one portion of the community, and don't stop to consider even once that changes in gameplay might have brought about that fault in social consciousness.

Yes, it IS in part the fault of RDMs that complain about backlining, then turn right around and perpetuate it. But don't ignore the blatantly large changes in gameplay that brought us to this point:

RDM's difficulty in credibly contributing to frontline melee damage...

... the imbalance in Healing skill that makes WHM's capability in it easily replaced by RDM...

... the current burn phenomina that that requires so little responsibility in hate management, tactical spell use, and(seemingly) so little effort in healing.

And for the record, while I believe that S-E might be pleased with the overall popularity RDM enjoys, I'd wager against you that they believe it plays at all like they'd intended.

[Malacite]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

While I agree the general community is to blame as well, I still hold that it's ultimately SE's fault for flip-flopping on burn style parties and doing nothing to make classic SC + MB parties against hard enemies equally as rewarding.

[BurningPanther]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

While I agree the general community is to blame as well, I still hold that it's ultimately SE's fault for flip-flopping on burn style parties and doing nothing to make classic SC + MB parties against hard enemies equally as rewarding.

Yeah, like I said, changes in gameplay. If game mechanics make it easier to do burn instead of strategize, part of the blame falls on the players, most of it falls on the change in mechanics allowing for such a shift.

[Karinya]

Re: What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

At any rate, you talk about blaming the RDM community for not taking a stand against main healing, for pigeon-holing RDM in the place it is now. But while the cause is evident, none have any right in placing blame, since we all have a habit of going with the smoothest flow. Better instead to blame the FFXI community at large, for shunning BLM, shunning PLD, pushing WHM to second-choice healer, and eschewing hate management, as well as basic tactics(Skill Chains), in favor of more mindless hacking and slashing to satisfy their parser results.
But hey, don't blame the community at large, right? They're just doing what's most efficient, right?

Actually, that *is* right. The balance problems are ultimately the fault of the game designers, i.e. SE. If they're actually reading this thread, I apologize if that's offensive, but it was a mistake to allow so much exp/hr from such weak mobs. And that *should* already be apparent to them by now, even if they haven't yet decided what (if anything) to do about it.

Yes, it IS in part the fault of RDMs that complain about backlining, then turn right around and perpetuate it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. RDMs being *on* the backline isn't an unintended change: it's the way the job is designed to function at higher levels. The shift in skill caps after 60 alone makes this blatantly obvious, even without the additional evidence provided by staves.

It's the fact of RDMs being the *entire* backline by themselves, rather than working to support other backliners and enfeeble a mob that is actually worth enfeebling, that is a negative change from classic (i.e. RoZ-CoP era) RDM gameplay.

I don't want to be the guy in Qufim who thinks he's a melee; I want to be the RDM I was in Uleguerand, silencing the BLMs, sleeping or kiting the SMN pets, stunning the ahrimans when they can't be silenced (I went /DRK several times, and it was useful, too), saving the party thousands of points of damage, and once in a while magic bursting on an actual skillchain. While the WHM does their own job (with a little help from my Refresh, of course) and only occasionally needs an extra cure from me.

That's RDM as I know and love it. If I wanted to hit things I'd play my DRG.

But don't ignore the blatantly large changes in gameplay that brought us to this point:
RDM's difficulty in credibly contributing to frontline melee damage...

That's not really a change. Have you leveled up recently and are confusing changes resulting from your level with changes in the game?

... the imbalance in Healing skill that makes WHM's capability in it easily replaced by RDM...

RDM has quite good healing magic skill. Making healing magic skill-based (in any reasonable way that wouldn't also completely destroy PLD) isn't going to affect RDM healing much. What it *will* hose is SMN, with only a subjob's healing skill; they'd need another even bigger round of buffs and fixes to bloodpacts to see any invites at all, and even then I bet it wouldn't be pretty. BRD/WHM would also get smacked in the face, at a time when some people would prefer to see it come back.

It's a can of worms that I think it might be better not to open. There are other options to improve WHM (which have been and are being discussed elsewhere).

... the current burn phenomina that that requires so little responsibility in hate management, tactical spell use, and(seemingly) so little effort in healing.

I dislike this, but I think you're not looking deep enough for the cause. But again, it's been discussed elsewhere; this problem certainly isn't RDM-specific.

In fact, I don't think RDM has any specific problems right now; just side effects of the overall game imbalances.