Damage Mitigation Revision?

[Malacite]

Are there any plans to change how damage to players is calculated?

Currently we only have two "effective" tank classes, only one of which was designed for it from the beginning.

This makes forming parties very irritating, since without a Paladin or Ninja present, a party usually won't earn EXP at a very good rate.

So why can't other jobs take up the role more effectively? Warrior and Blue Mage can both do so, but not quite as effectively as the aforementioned jobs. Are there any plans to change how armor and defensive abilities work? As it stands, even against the strongest enemies, a Paladin who employs the turtle strategy won't see a big change in the damage they take due to defense's diminishing returns.

Will you make defense, armor, and evasion abilities more profound/effective? Will you be doing for parry and guard what you did for shields?

What about classes like WAR, SAM, DRG, and DRK who can all wear heavy armor? Shouldn't they be able to take hits a lot better since they can all wear plate instead of cloth?

You've said before that you intend to make Paladin the premier tanking class of the game. Does this mean you'll make it powerful enough to stand on it's own without much support from a White or Red Mage? How about changing Defense Bonus to a damage reduction trait?


In a nut shell, it seems like most of the dedicated damage dealers should be able to take hits a lot better than they currently do, with Paladin being a veritable brick wall in the face of the enemy. What are your thoughts or plans in regards to this and the "tank shortage" ?

[Necropolis]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

While PLD was and still is the premiere tank in FFXI, other jobs can do so quite fine. It's a matter of player opinion and geat choices that restrict the current players.

I've partied with a War from my shell recently that was playing around with tanking gear (seeing as he's also a pld) and if a war gears for defense (and actually uses a shield) they take hits much like a PLD. There is plenty of gear for wars to choose from, it's just that their most effective role is typically as a DD.

Blu I don't know about, but I do know they can tank in some situations. I've never had one tank at higher level parties though so I can't really comment on thier role in 60+ exp outside DD.

I think this come down to player opinion. SE has added plenty of jobs with versatility, but in our current FFXI society we always max/min everything. A nin is a great puller/DD when needed. A Blu can main heal. A Rdm can do quiet well as a DD, as can bard. A war can tank. But each of these jobs have a better role elsewhere and get pigeon-holed into one routine.

People however that take the time to collect situational gear prove over and over how well a RDM can tank/DD, war can tank and all the like when they're called upon to fill that role. Hell this morning when we were short a few PLDs for tiamat and the one we had died the rdm stepped right in and tanked just fine for 5 minutes for the PLD to recover.

[Vyuru]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

I disagree slightly that we only have two effective tank classes, I've seen Warriors tank quite well 60+, /nin and otherwise. I've also seen some very good Blue Mage tanks, and now Samurai tanks.

IMO it's more about player skill and what the player base considers an appropriate tank job. I've seen some Blue Mages who used to play pld or nin do a damn fine job of tanking, yet the DD only! Blu I see do a craptacular job of tanking, so I think it's hard to say that Blu can't do it as well as Pld or Nin.

Will you make defense, armor, and evasion abilities more profound/effective? Will you be doing for parry and guard what you did for shields?

Parry works pretty well IMO, Guard though is crappy to skillup.

I think a slightly better question would be:

Will you make the different armor classes give different defensive values much like the different shield sizes do?

We have Cuir Bouilli giving the same defensive value as Silver Mail, I could be wrong, but I'd expect the metal to deflect more damage than the leather armor would.

I'd also be interested in seeing if attack/defense abilities could be scaled on more of a +% rather than a straight up +10.

Maybe not attack since the 2handed update, but definately defense abilities, and maybe some kind of +vit bonus ability and such for pld.
------------------------------------------
Double edit:

And you know, it's not like Pld are horrible tanks, it's just that alot of people prefer blink tanking rather than bring a Pld that it can be hard to find a Pld for a lvl 70+ exp party, let alone people willing to party with one.

Quite frankly I still prefer a Pld tank over a Ninja tank anyday of the week, but that is my personal preference.

[Nuriko]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

That sort of reminds me of when I was complimented in Lower Delkfutt's for my tanking on PLD ... except I was a BLU. I'll definitely have to try WAR tanking (and making the PT myself, since I doubt people would think to ask a WAR as tank these days), I'll need the levels since I'm REALLY levelling PLD now.

[Vyuru]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

I'll definitely have to try WAR tanking

If you're taking warrior as a subjob up to lvl 37 and plan on tanking I still swear by the Gaxe War/Mnk tanking combo. Sure, you may need *more* healing than a Pld may have since you have no mana pool, but most ninjas get the stuffing knocked out of them when Utsusemi: Ichi goes down until they get Utsu: Ni, and it's not like I don't make parties without 2-3 mages anyway (I favor the whm+smn as my 2x mage combo) so healing power is not lacking.

And honestly, despite taking all those hits I still hold hate as well as most paladins and I can rip hate off of almost anyone pratically whenever I want.

War/mnk, it's all good :P

Even better I bet now with the two handed update and signet changes, you can rest a tick or two perhaps between pulls in some camps without losing TP now.

[Karinya]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

Well, I agree with war/mnk, but I think axe+shield would probably be better in many situations. Shields weren't just improved for paladins, but for anyone that uses them (although paladins got the biggest benefit).

In any case: the only damage mitigation revision the game needs is making it less easy to "mitigate" 100% of damage with a 0 mp spell. Armor is fine, as long as you don't have unrealistic expectations nursed by parties where nobody ever gets hit.

[Icemage]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

It bothers me somewhat that Monk, putatively a class that was originally designed to be something of a tank (high VIT, high HP, Counter) never achieved that status.

Other than that, I think the current state of affairs with 2 tanks is at least viable, if not optimal. I'm personally betting that Square-Enix adds one new tank job in WotG (Geomancer?). They have to know that tanks are fewer and farther between these days.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

I still think PLDs could be made a bit tougher (less reliant on the mages) while making the heavy armor DD's take hits better. There's no logic in a warrior wearing full plate taking as much damage as a thief or mage in leather or cloth, DD gear or otherwise.

And we all know how pointless VIT and DEF are for end game >_>

[Akashimo]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

It bothers me somewhat that Monk, putatively a class that was originally designed to be something of a tank (high VIT, high HP, Counter) never achieved that status.

I heard back in some linkshell chats that before the release of pld, it was either war or monk as a tank, not sure on the valadity on where they picked it up, but it sparked when i read this.
Honesty though, its possible if we keep our high dmg output while still either evading, guarding or countering to mititage dmg. Hardest part, it the gaurding. The proc rate is terribly low to skill up, like shield was before the update that turned blocks with shield to the way it works now. Most of the atk/str/acc gear I've seen/used by myself and others, we take dmg like a nin without shadows, even with defender up and not using counterstance. Its possible, but you really need to make a party built around it, e.g. static party. There is gear for it, food, sub, but not people that'll open arms take monks taking until we get hate from dmg alone or our DoT with spiked ws dmg. The job abilities generate a fraction of provoke, but isn't potent in the TP burn style to keep it long enough. Only viable way I've more or less tested is mnk/pld but a key factor is gone, voke. Sentinel cures can grab the attention but not keep it. Shield Mastery obviously doesn't work for guarding. Cover, is helpful at times, but just isn't as effective.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

before the release of pld. . .

Then existed no such time in Vana'diel.

[Akashimo]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

Then existed no such time in Vana'diel.

beta testing? O_o

[Karinya]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

True, but since it's an advanced job, there must have been a time when nobody had it unlocked yet.

I wasn't around then, though.

I bet they meant before the release of nin, which was an expansion job. I wasn't around then either, but I've heard WAR tanking was commonplace (and obviously not WAR/NIN - it was WARs wearing armor.)

There's no logic in a warrior wearing full plate taking as much damage as a thief or mage in leather or cloth, DD gear or otherwise.

True - that's why they don't, unless they're Berserk and the thf or blm isn't. You're just not paying attention if you can't tell the difference between being hit for 150 and being hit for 250. (And that's without a defense food or Defender.) Of course, WARs aren't required to wear heavy armor and often don't, because some light-medium pieces like Hauby give more offensive stats. But WAR has access to some of the best defensive armors in the game and if they actually use them, they take pretty noticeably lower damage from physical attacks.

Vit and Def *are not broken*. The only people who believe that are people who want a tank that doesn't take any damage at all, or expect armor to be permanent Sentinel. Look at Dynamis RNG mobs' EES on a DD and EES on a PLD, if you want to see the biggest difference; but it works just as well with Deadly Hold or any other physical attack. Vit and Def *do reduce* the amount of damage taken from physical attacks - by factors of as much as 2 or 3 compared to the same attack on a low-def target. They just don't reduce it to 0. The problem is not the weakness of Def, but the overpoweredness of Utsusemi.

Many people on this thread have probably been to Byakko fights where someone stood behind the tank at the wrong time and got one-shotted by Claw Cyclone. How often does an actual tank equipped for tanking get one-shotted by Claw Cyclone?

Now, if SE wants to change defense so that 1 VIT gives 1 DEF if you have a shield (similar to the way 1 STR/DEX now give 1 ATK/ACC if you have a 2h weapon) or something, I won't exactly complain. But I don't think it's really necessary. PLD need some ways to deal with heavy magic damage that don't involve 20,000 dynamis currency or a king-only drop, but we have the physical damage covered pretty well as it is.

[Malacite]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

As a 75 WAR I can say tanking is a bitch on WAR/NIN. Shadows do help, but you don't have the evasion or parrying ability of a THF, and I personally find that Defender does next to nothing (I do have tanking gear handy too. Gotta love that Lorica...)

I'm still taking over 200 a pop from Mamools with defender up.

[Akashimo]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

As a 75 WAR I can say tanking is a bitch on WAR/NIN. Shadows do help, but you don't have the evasion or parrying ability of a THF, and I personally find that Defender does next to nothing (I do have tanking gear handy too. Gotta love that Lorica...)
I'm still taking over 200 a pop from Mamools with defender up.

More like impossible. If ya know kotetsu, she/he has an isnane war/mnk build that make it impossible to take hate off deca weapons during a sky merit party. And took almost same amount of dmg most plds do against them o_O
If you want to tank on war, don't go /nin in all honesty.

[jenova_9]

Re: Damage Mitigation Revision?

I do strongly agree that armor needs to reduce damage more. especially the metal armor compared to the cloths.