What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

[KingOfZeal]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

I've heard that having bst fully leveled to 75 will increase charm rates, but I've found from personal experience that I have no problem charming VT and lower on my 75 whm. By bst is currently only 43.

There may be some modifier, or secret skill associated with charm that we don't know about (kinda like choco digging?), but I'd have to say it's based primarily on chr. The duration of charm and the resist rates have been consistant across both whm and bst.

Charm is based on level and CHR. One point that has been made on the BRD forums, regarding /BST, is that a 1BRD/75BST can charm things much greater than a level 1 BST -- because of the level. Likewise, a 75BRD/1BST can also charm things much greater than a 1 BST -- because of the high CHR.
White Mages also have a high CHR (which is why many BRD's sub WHM), so the argument is mostly the same.


As far as the OP, I don't see any problem with it. I am leveling BST now, in fact, and it's much longer to get anywhere because of two reasons:
#1, you're soloing. Because of this, many times you are limited to T's or VT's (surely not IT's like a party could do), which has a lower XP gain, even though it takes the same amount of time (if not longer) to kill. Add on the XP reduction if you charm a pet (which most people do, as opposed to a Jug pets which are often weaker), and you're getting considerably less xp/hour.
#2, you're soloing. Since you're taking T-VT's, and since you're doing it yourself, you are taking a much bigger risk. If you die (pre RR from /WHM), there's a very high change you won't get a raise at all because of the general dislike of BST by players. So, you eat the 10% xp loss (or 5%, if you do have RR, which is still significant in the higher levels), plus the time it takes to get back to your camp and your xp/hour is diminished even further. Many BST's complain of having double-digit deaths per level, as well, which just goes to reinforce this.

I would argue that getting BST to 75 could take 3-5x longer than a normal party job (especially a support job like BRD, WHM or RDM), which makes any rewards you get from /BST more than deserved.

[Vyuru]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

Not trying to flame here, but have you tried it before? I mean, of course you don't get JA's, JT's, stats, etc from the BST sub, but there's no reason to discount this unless you've tried it before.

Yeah, but I'd point out that the whole charm thing opens up alot of possiblities. I could lvl thf and bst to 75, charm some mob, and go to town farming with THII + other TH gear.

More solo aspects.... so yeah, this is quite the thing here.

Charm is based of CHR... thats why you can sub it and still charm , its not because you ahve leveled BST to 75 -.-

If a lvl 1 bst with max chr went to charm something, a lvl 1pup/75bst with less chr would have an easier time charming the same mob and have the charm last longer to my understanding.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

Not to intrude, but the whole "Provoke" analogy is flawed because, to my understanding, it works exactly the same against every mob at every level.

This is as opposed to Charm where, if you tried it against a mob an insane amount of levels higher than you, you'd quickly find yourself dead.

My two gil on this issue.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

Not to intrude, but the whole "Provoke" analogy is flawed because, to my understanding, it works exactly the same against every mob at every level.

This is as opposed to Charm where, if you tried it against a mob an insane amount of levels higher than you, you'd quickly find yourself dead.

Didn't mean to suggest Charm works the same on all monsters like Provoke--I meant that it works the same for BST and /BST, like Provoke for WAR and /WAR.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

Some people think it affects, some people don't. I'm a conscious objector because it seems odd that it would go against the mechanics in the game, unless there was some sort of "mob affinity" tied to a character's Charm, and it stayed with you similar to how Tonberry or Fomor hate does.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

Some people think it affects, some people don't. I'm a conscious objector because it seems odd that it would go against the mechanics in the game, unless there was some sort of "mob affinity" tied to a character's Charm, and it stayed with you similar to how Tonberry or Fomor hate does.

You do realize that, coupled with RDM or BRD, that /BST would bring a character very close to emulating Enchanter and, thus, being the ultimate combination crowd control in this game? Bind, Sleep, Charm, Fight?

I loved Enchanter in EQ, drives me nuts that no job in FFXI can do it natively and I'd totally quit BRD for good if they depowered /BST because working to obtain that kind of ability is the single most enormous task in the game. At least outside of upgrading relic.

The problem is, SE probably realizes this and that's why each and every "endgame" camp or zone is anti-charm. The major oversight being Dragon's Aery, of course. BSTs could charm Courels in BD but they'd be more useful if they actually at the level where they could aggro you. VoS has Rocs, uncharmable.

So far, BST or /BSTs skills are just highlighted for Alastor Antlion and Hakutaku at high level. Oh and we can charm birds in sky. And yet, Aern BSTs can charm Xomits and real BSTs can't.

Um, thanks SE.

Otherwise its one of the best ways to solo and farm in the game, I don't think someone who has soloed thier EXP to 75 on BST deserves to be robbed of what they clearly worked for.

BST has had enough shafting in this game, thanks. Leave it be. The job needs upgrades, not further unnessary downgrades.

[KingOfZeal]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

The problem is, SE probably realizes this and that's why each and every "endgame" camp or zone is anti-charm. The major oversight being Dragon's Aery, of course. BSTs could charm Courels in BD but they'd be more useful if they actually at the level where they could aggro you. VoS has Rocs, uncharmable.

Completely off-topic, can Empty-type mobs be charmed? I haven't been able to find anything about it one way or another anywhere, but I'm not 30BST yet so I can't try it out myself with any reasonable result...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

Empty can't be charmed, either. BST statics have been know to jugburn promys though.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

Completely off-topic, can Empty-type mobs be charmed? I haven't been able to find anything about it one way or another anywhere, but I'm not 30BST yet so I can't try it out myself with any reasonable result...

AFAIK, Empty type monsters cannot be charmed.

[Mhurron]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

Completely off-topic, can Empty-type mobs be charmed? I haven't been able to find anything about it one way or another anywhere, but I'm not 30BST yet so I can't try it out myself with any reasonable result...

I am 99.99999% sure they can not. Empty are just damn weird in every conceivable way.

[Callisto]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

It's a completely understandable position to take, after all subbed spells (WHM summoning carbuncle or a WHM casting stone) are half strength. The difference is charm is a JA not a spell that is based on a skill level. Provoke (as mentioned) isn't half strength when used buy a NIN or PLD, neither is any other JA (AFAIK).

I argued that point for quite a long time as well. There is only one JA in the entire game that I could come up with that scales in strength based on level: Hasso. Well, at least the STR bonus portion of it.

Sneak Attack. It's actually less than half-strength, as it does not get a DEX multiplier when used as /THF, it only guarantees a critical hit.

TA as well, but I didn't count that as I believe it doesn't get the AGI multi without the Assassin trait, which would be impossible to get as /THF anyways.

[little ninja]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

My friend who was a 72drg/41bst was on the one side of sky fighting flamingo vs flamingo. An i was on the other side doing the same thing with my 72nin/75bst. An i had less mischarms then he did. an we both had the exact same charm gear. An both were eating food with Chr.

[Mhurron]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

Sneak Attack. It's actually less than half-strength, as it does not get a DEX multiplier when used as /THF, it only guarantees a critical hit.
TA as well, but I didn't count that as I believe it doesn't get the AGI multi without the Assassin trait, which would be impossible to get as /THF anyways.

Interesting, good to know.

[Karinya]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

You do realize that, coupled with RDM or BRD, that /BST would bring a character very close to emulating Enchanter and, thus, being the ultimate combination crowd control in this game? Bind, Sleep, Charm, Fight?

Bard already has native charm (at high levels, at least). Low skill would probably keep them from getting an effective bind capability from BRD/RDM though.

RDM/BST can only sleep one thing at a time though. So I think you're better off giving up bind and sticking with bard (which can charm, single target sleep *and* aoe sleep without subjob and without MP).

I never played EQ (although I had a friend whose main was an enchanter); that being said, I don't think that kind of pure CC specialist is as necessary in a game with fewer mandatory multi-pulls. A few playstyles involve voluntary multi-pulling and the existing jobs CC well enough to support it; Dynamis and other endgame areas have mandatory multi-pulls but again, existing jobs CC well enough to support it (especially considering how many people you have around).

Aren't you also leaving out one of EQ enchanter's other big strengths, its monstrously powerful slows? At least, the impression I got from my enchanter friend is that there were slows that made SV Elegy look weak by comparison - and mobs that you couldn't survive unless they were slowed that much. BRD and RDM already have slows, too, but I think they're not quite as strong or crucial in FFXI.

BST has had enough shafting in this game, thanks. Leave it be. The job needs upgrades, not further unnessary downgrades.

True, but I think it already doesn't work the way you think it works (and it shouldn't - allowing "extra" levels to have an effect breaks the job/subjob system.) Anyway, BST upgrades need not and should not come from charm - the job is too dependent on charm already because of the relative uselessness of Call Beast. But we've had that thread several times already.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

Bard already has native charm (at high levels, at least). Low skill would probably keep them from getting an effective bind capability from BRD/RDM though.

Verelai is purely LOL. It charms and wears off in 30 seconds and you can't control the mob when its under that kind of charm. Only BST Charm plus its JAs let you control mobs. Lullaby is an effective enough enfeeble to substitute for bind, Elegy is on par with what Enchanters had, the only real difference is BRD doesn't have the Magic Shield ability, that would be RDM's Phalnax.

I would CC all the time with Enhanter, when rouges got two links on a pull I'd bind one, charm the other and send it to find the link to fight the bound one, then I'd resume my manabattery duties. Then my allies would take down the mob my pet was fighting. It was a beautiful thing to behold, but SE killed any potential for it in FFXI with stupifying EXP and level penalties on charm.