why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

[Lmnop]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

no, actually brutal's 5% double attack have more chances than homam's 2.5% triple attack so it isn't that good (Triple's 5% on my THF is rare enough).

Ummm. They both give 5% more attacks. That means they're the same.

If you attack 100 times, 2.5% 3A will turn that into 105. 5% 2A will turn that into 105 as well.

you don't see how Acc/attack+12.5 STR/DEX+5 is better than Acc+15 Triple attack+2.5%..?

No.

[KoukiRyu]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

While small, I'd think the HP/MP+ on Homam would be great for a DRG/Mage, and then you're not even considering the fact that Haub has -stats...that would hurt you while solo'ing anyway. I don't see how you can think that Homam < Haub, at all. Especially if you're comparing it with DRG.

And also, don't even say that you can just macro it in for a ws, that's what you can already do with Heca. ^^

[seq]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

Ummm. They both give 5% more attacks. That means they're the same.

If you attack 100 times, 2.5% 3A will turn that into 105. 5% 2A will turn that into 105 as well.

no they are not ^^, a 5% chance to DA is going to procs more often than the too low to be counted on homam's 2.5% rate.
while playing THF, i can tell you TA kicks in 2 WSs every 2 hours >_>, that's with double homam's TA rate too.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

no they are not ^^, a 5% chance to DA is going to procs more often than the too low to be counted on homam's 2.5% rate.
while playing THF, i can tell you TA kicks in 2 WSs every 2 hours >_>, that's with double homam's TA rate too.

If you're saying either the 5% or the 2.5% figure is inaccurate, you should be more clear. Otherwise, one may have to question if you know what "%" means...

Double Attack = 1 extra attack.
1 extra attack * 5% = 5% extra attacks

Triple Attack = 2 extra attacks.
2 extra attack * 2.5% = 5% extra attacks

[Malacite]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

Haub would be such a major help to DRG though for the trip to 75.

If nothing else, it simply just deserves to be able to use it regardless of how beneficial it may be over other options...

The truth is SE is gimping DRG's options somewhat from past FF's purely because it has a pet now and they don't want to make the DRG "all that" just on it's own and I hate that.

It's crap like that makes me wish SE had just focused more on jumps and forgone the wyvern entirely, much as I love the cute little guy <( ; _ ; )>

Other than the pet, there is *no* good arguement for the job not to have access to it, especially when Ninja shouldn't.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

It's crap like that makes me wish SE had just focused more on jumps and forgone the wyvern entirely, much as I love the cute little guy <( ; _ ; )>

Other than the pet, there is *no* good arguement for the job not to have access to it, especially when Ninja shouldn't.

But if SE had gone that route, DRG wouldn't be able solo any better than most of the other DD jobs. If you want a powerful party DD job that lacks solo capability, there are plenty to choose from.

The only real problem DRG suffers from is an inaccurate public image. Two and a half years ago, WAR suffered from the same problem. WAR was viewed as a mediocre DD with mediocre tank capabilities. Today, it's viewed as a top DD job. What changed during those 2 years? It wasn't the job itself. It wasn't even the preferred DD subjobs (the only one to really change is SAM, and it's still seen as an offbeat DD sub). Pieces of wonderful DD gear has been added here and there that WARs can use, but that's true of DRG and other DD jobs. The only thing that has really changed with WAR is how people view the job.

What would have happened if SE had tweaked WAR several years ago due to the poor reputation it had among the player base? We'd have a real problem on our hands today (that's if you don't already think WAR is over powered as it is).

One last note about DRG and Haubergeon: DRG natively gets both attack bonus (+10 attack) and accuracy bonus (+10 acc) job traits. None of the jobs capable of wearing Haubergeon have that luxury. For any of them to have both, they would have to sub either DRG or RNG. NIN has neither job trait natively.

Given the applicable job traits:
NIN/WAR + Hauby + Life Belt = +22.5 attack, +22.5 acc
DRG/anything + Assault Jerkin + Life Belt = +28 attack, +23 acc
DRG/anything + SH + Swordbelt +1 = +22 attack, +20 acc

Yes, I ignored the 5 STR and 5 DEX from Hauby, though their impact to attack and accuracy have been noted. Just the impact of 5 STR and 5 DEX shouldn't be enough to "gimp" DRG.

[Malacite]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

One last note about DRG and Haubergeon: DRG natively gets both attack bonus (+10 attack) and accuracy bonus (+10 acc) job traits. None of the jobs capable of wearing Haubergeon have that luxury. For any of them to have both, they would have to sub either DRG or RNG. NIN has neither job trait natively.

That argument is BS. Complete god damned BS, and here's why:

WAR: Already gets Double Attack, Berserk and Aggressor, so it can gain a multitude of other benefits from sub jobs without sacrificing any of this. WAR is the last job on the list that "needs" it, but deserves it purely because it is intended to be the master of arms.

SAM: SAM is pretty damned gear dependent I'll admit, but it does have Hasso now for a good boost to STR Accuracy and Haste. SAM is probably one of the only jobs on the list that actually needs this.

NIN: No passive job traits for attack or accuracy to speak of, but NIN is already borderline broken as it is. A job like NIN shouldn't even be able to wear such a heavy body armor in the first place (which is what pisses me off about DRG not having it; it should be the other way around)

BST: I'm still not entirely sure why SE gave BST the option to wear the big hauberk types instead of PLD or DRG, but BST takes so much crap from SE I'm not going to argue it.

DRK: Four passive attack up traits, Absorb Spells and Two A-class weapons to use (granted their both two handed). No, DRK sure as hell does not need the Haub but it rightly gets to wear it as it's one of the 3 "knight" classes.

PLD: No DD traits to speak of, but like DRK it's a heavy armored knight and as such deserves the Haub.


So DRG gets +10 accuracy and attack. Big deal. It doesn't make a large enough impact like the abilities that the other jobs get to warrant getting screwed out of the haubergeon. The wyvern apparently does however, and that's what ticks me off. BST pets are arguably much stronger than the wyvern (in terms of raw damage, not utility) and yet it still gets to wear the heavy stuff. Bull crap.

Don't get the wrong idea, I love the wyvern and certainly wouldn't want to lose it for anything, but I just can't agree with SE's ideas of game balance from time to time. NIN should seriously have the same restrictions in terms of armor as THF, and yet it doesn't...


In short: SE is on crack.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

So DRG gets +10 accuracy and attack. Big deal.

If +10 acc and +10 attack at the same time isn't a big deal, why do you even care that DRG doesn't get to wear Haubergeon? After all, that's basically what Hauby has over SH and Assault Jerkin. Or is 5 STR and 5 DEX that big of a deal? Or did you just feel the need to climb up on a soapbox and rant about your favorite job?

[nickofearth]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

Amen Malacite, I've always wondered wtf is wrong with SE.

If +10 acc and +10 attack at the same time isn't a big deal, why do you even care that DRG doesn't get to wear Haubergeon? After all, that's basically what Hauby has over SH and Assault Jerkin. Or is 5 STR and 5 DEX that big of a deal? Or did you just feel the need to climb up on a soapbox and rant about your favorite job?

*moves his hand over his head*

whoosh.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

whoosh.

Hmm. Didn't think DRG's would "whoosh" much, given native Accuracy Bonus +10 and "A+" skill rating in their primary weapon. (At least, not compared to WAR's, with no build in Accuracy Bonus and merely "A" skill in their weapon of choice.)

You must be special. =b

[seq]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

If you're saying either the 5% or the 2.5% figure is inaccurate, you should be more clear. Otherwise, one may have to question if you know what "%" means...

Double Attack = 1 extra attack.
1 extra attack * 5% = 5% extra attacks

Triple Attack = 2 extra attacks.
2 extra attack * 2.5% = 5% extra attacks

the 2.5% is just too too too low to activate, as i said before.
swinging a delay:492 lance takes 8.2 seconds to swing once, so 820 seconds to swing 100 times that's 13.66 minutes.
so in 13.66 minutes you'll have a 2.5% Chance of triple attacking VS brutal's 5% chance it's true BS..
comparing it to pahl.body's ~3.5% (wiki said it's 1-5%) Critical hit rate that can be increased through merits to ~7.5% while still having Accuracy+10 (5 points less than homam, no big deal) where crits usually do double DMG?
so? homam body is overrated, and is good only for the HP/MP+28 >.>

[Karinya]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

What would have happened if SE had tweaked WAR several years ago due to the poor reputation it had among the player base? We'd have a real problem on our hands today (that's if you don't already think WAR is over powered as it is).

WAR isn't overpowered. Multihit WS are overpowered against enemies weaker than the normal level of exp mobs, or when you have a lot of extra stats from merits and high-end gear making you stronger than your level alone indicates; and mobs that are weak compared to a 75 party give too much exp and are therefore hunted preferentially. This leads multihit WS, such as Rampage, to be far more powerful against merit targets than they are against, say, level 60 exp targets (both absolutely and in comparison with single-hit WS).

One last note about DRG and Haubergeon: DRG natively gets both attack bonus (+10 attack) and accuracy bonus (+10 acc) job traits. None of the jobs capable of wearing Haubergeon have that luxury. For any of them to have both, they would have to sub either DRG or RNG. NIN has neither job trait natively.
Given the applicable job traits:
NIN/WAR + Hauby + Life Belt = +22.5 attack, +22.5 acc
DRG/anything + Assault Jerkin + Life Belt = +28 attack, +23 acc
DRG/anything + SH + Swordbelt +1 = +22 attack, +20 acc
Yes, I ignored the 5 STR and 5 DEX from Hauby, though their impact to attack and accuracy have been noted. Just the impact of 5 STR and 5 DEX shouldn't be enough to "gimp" DRG.

It gets better though, because DRG can actually have a subjob too. DRG/SAM + AJ + Life Belt is +28 attack (more when you count Hasso's STR), +33 acc and 10% haste *plus* jumps, Store TP and Meditate. NIN can't begin to compare. Even if they voke constantly, plus use ninjutsu, plus the DRG's hate-reducing jumps they *still* often have trouble keeping above me on the hate list if I don't hold back. A lot. SAMs may have needed the help or they may not, but SE kinda created a monster with DRG/SAM.

When you compare it to WAR/NIN the difference is even bigger because WAR/NIN is using an A- weapon; they need hauby's att/acc just to make up for the skill difference, let alone the traits and whatever the DRG is subbing. (WAR/SAM has an A+ weapon and Hasso, but even after the SAM changes I don't see many of them around. Probably they draw too much hate to be comfortable giving up Utsusemi.)

comparing it to pahl.body's ~3.5% (wiki said it's 1-5%) Critical hit rate that can be increased through merits to ~7.5% while still having Accuracy+10 (5 points less than homam, no big deal) where crits usually do double DMG?

First of all, crit merits and your base crit rate will still work with Homam (in fact, you can crit *during* a triple attack for even more damage), so you can't really count them in favor of Pahluwan. The number of *extra* crits you'll see from Pahluwan is about the same as the number of TAs you'll see from Homam, in a given time period.

Second, and potentially more importantly, crits do extra damage but they don't give you extra TP. A TA swing (or TA jump) will return about 40 TP if you get all three hits, depending on weapon and subjob. And DRG is one of the few jobs that can get a TA with a 2-handed weapon, immediately use the TP to WS... and live even if the monster doesn't instantly die, because of hate-shedding jumps.

[Sevv]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

I'm sorry but this is one of the reason i retired my drg, was thinking of bringing it back but...


Drg will never be war, no matter how much you all cry about: I want hauby/more att/Aberk/New Ablities.

Yes you cant tp in heca, but we get homam, which is great to tp in, what's wrong with homam? I don't have sea, even tho cop battles are easier now I still don't have sea And to those with sea and people before you the game is about work you have to put some in before you can just get any piece.

If you think heca is really shit then you shouldn't do sky/kings because there is nothing for you spend all your time farming get Conte Peices some Homam from sea, and get out damage by drgs who macro in heca.

It comes down to this any time any job gets any boost/new gear/etc their is always the why me card played. Your all spending too much time crying and not enough time getting any closer to V fork.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

... comparing it to pahl.body's ~3.5% (wiki said it's 1-5%) Critical hit rate that can be increased through merits to ~7.5% while still having Accuracy+10 (5 points less than homam, no big deal) where crits usually do double DMG?
so? homam body is overrated, and is good only for the HP/MP+28 >.>

A critical hit raises pDIF by 1.0 (to a max of 3.0), and the non-crit pDIF can go up to 2.4. It'll roughly double the damage if your attack is close to the mob's defense. If you're up closer to having twice as much attack as the mob's defense, it'll only raise damage by 50%, etc. Crits will probably be double damage if you're eating sushi, don't have access to Berserk, and don't have BRDs in your party to give you madrigal. If, however, you're eating meat (which a job with an A+ rating should be able to manage at most merit camps) and/or have a BRD or two in your party, the benefits from crits will start to diminish percentage wise.

Just for a moment, lets go with crits being double damage, and that Pahluwan Body actually gives 5% boost to crits. So over 100 attacks, Pahluwan Body gives an additional 5 crits, which does damage equal to 5 melee hits. You get that extra damage, but no extra TP. Meanwhile, the Triple Attack from Homam would give 5 extra attacks during that same 100 attacks. But along with the damage from those 5 extra attacks, you also get extra TP. By those numbers, I would say that Homam is better than Pahluwan body.

And please stop saying that 2.5% is "too low to activate". You didn't seem to think 3.5% (the estimated crit rate on Pahluwan Body) was too small to dismiss. So why is 2.5% so easy to dismiss? The only percentage rate that is truly too low to activate is 0%.

[Malacite]

Re: why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

(At least, not compared to WAR's, with no build in Accuracy Bonus and merely "A" skill in their weapon of choice.)

A little thing called Aggressor

If +10 acc and +10 attack at the same time isn't a big deal, why do you even care that DRG doesn't get to wear Haubergeon? After all, that's basically what Hauby has over SH and Assault Jerkin. Or is 5 STR and 5 DEX that big of a deal? Or did you just feel the need to climb up on a soapbox and rant about your favorite job?

It's not a big deal when you compare it to the bonuses other jobs get. It would be an entirely different story if DRG gained tier 2 bonuses in those stats, but for me, it's more of an image thing and not just the stat ups.

DRG are supposed to wear heavy armors. NIN don't. SE has to pull it's head out from it's own ass.