Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

[Karinya]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

Well, soloing Ose is practical if you can't find anyone to help you camp him. Even if it does take 15+ minutes (hell, it takes 5 minutes just to kill a PH if you're saving convert so you'll have it in case of an ose pop). Soloing Genbu in 8 hours, not so much.

But the main reason RDM doesn't feel like RDM in high level exp: super weak monsters. There's usually just no point in making them any weaker, especially when they die so fast anyway. (Occasionally silence is worthwhile.) Jobs that specialize in enhancing (BRD, COR) see one buff apply to 3+ fights, so it's still worth using; but enfeebles die with the target. Furthermore, most RDM enfeebles only reduce the monster's ability to damage the party - which is already negligible in high level exp. Dia III arguably *is* still worth casting in merit (or Dia II if you don't have III) - but that's it, because the others are irrelevant on something that dies so fast and isn't really hitting back anyway.

Of course, this mainly holds in TAU camps. If anyone actually still fought Uleguerand's Kindred or Tavnazian Rams, enfeebles would still be quite useful there. But most people don't, because it's far more rewarding to massacre the helpless.

Really, I'm starting to think that there's hardly any point to even discussing any other balance problems as long as that one remains unfixed. So much of the game balance was designed around the assumption of a given level of monster difficulty that it really destroys everything to have that thrown away. BLM vs. melee, useless enfeebles, tanks not holding hate, not taking enough damage to justify using a party slot on WHM, possibly even /NIN being invulnerable, are all traceable back to underhunting. Except it isn't really "underhunting" when you get MORE exp for it.

SE, please adjust the exp system so it is worthwhile to fight dangerous monsters for exp again.


P.S. It would fix Poison and Water Shot, too. Poison is great on things that don't die in 30 seconds - cheap, low hate, great damage/MP, can't miss or be reduced by defense/resistance once it has landed. I think it's even immune to Magic Defense Bonus. Stronger mobs = more useful Poison = more useful Water Shot. So many things would be fixed indirectly by making IT's worth fighting again.

[Saren]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

What Karinya is saying makes a lot of sense.

Perhaps some sort of straight exp bonus for ITs, not something that scales with level so it's in your interests to fight low ITs. I love the idea of making skillchain and mb more desirable and possibly making it so you can use trick attack to put all the hate from the skillchain on the trick partner too (I read someone suggesting that somewhere on here this morning but I forget where).

Couple these two together and you don't 'gimp' burn parties exp but you do reward people who cooperate to take on stronger enemies which....is how it should be.

[Malacite]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

The way I figure it, if a classic style SC + MB party could chain IT mobs for a minimum of 400-500 EXP per kill (before chain bonuses) then it would be on par with the TP burns. This way people could go with either style depending on what jobs are seeking and everyone has a good time.

[Sevv]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

You can chain @ Nyzule Isle on IT mamojal(Sp? i use tab key lol) for about 250-400 they die quick and can keep chain with a brd a mage (we usually have whm) and all dds. We pull great exp/hr, ITs are out there but people are lazy.

-edit didnt want to double post-

Its with the magic burst and Offensive mages their is alot of down time, for a standard party. It moved from Mana burn to TP burn. Nyzule isle you can Wyvern Burn 6 drg/mage (got 16~18k/hr). In the Mire (nyzule mire 2) Smns can burn easy. Whm and Rdms Can join burn pt so easy its not a problem. Drks can sub nin skill up axe and burn great even Bst/nin does very well in burn set ups.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

SE needs to add monsters that are IT++, not just IT(borderline VT). They need to grant way over 200 exp a kill for them to even compare to rapid killing of the current situation. Finally, they need a lot of unique traits to balance them being weaker than their level without being meleeburn pray. The exp doesn't have be entirely based on level, giving monsters an exp bonus (like Hippogryphs, Wyverns, and Rams have) can make it easier.

Let's make up a monster here.

First let's compare exp gain. These estimates are very, very rough and shouldn't be held by any standard.

Group 1: Tank DD DD Healer Support BLM(BLU or SMN might work) + DD/BLM/orSupport. Uses SC+MB. (Might be best if one DD was a SAM)

Group 2: DD DD DD DD Support Support. Uses Meleeburn.

Both of these groups are average / borderline well-geared. No BB MNKs or Ridils.

We won't factor in exp chain rewards, but note: They will probably be in the favor of Group 1 if they can hit Chain 5. Group II will be more consistent with their chains however(probably having a constant Chain 5 bonus).

Group 2 kills a monster that gives 100 base exp every 30 seconds. In 10 minutes, that's 2000 exp or 20 monsters. (that's 12k an hour, without factoring Chain Bonuses)

Group 1 kills a monster that gives 300 base exp. That means to keep up, they need to kill around 6 and half monsters in 10 minutes for 1980 exp. That is more than 2 monsters per 2 minutes, meaning they can hold a Chain 5 (but it might be a bit close). (that's 11.8k an hour, without factoring Chain Bonuses, with would be a lot of the exp gain).

It seems Group II would be able to keep up with Group I, maybe even surpass them with Chain bonuses added in... so 300 exp is perfect.

Now the monster would have be different than normal. It would need some unique traits:

1) Prevents the current hate target from being an effective DD. This can be done with a simple Defense bonus against monsters facing them or making the monster very hard to tank with shadows but effective with VIT/Def/Shield. There has been be an advantage to holding it still.

2) A lot of HP. And MP. It would need to be Aspir-able for BLMs. Maybe even weak to Aspir.

3) A weakness to SC and MB to counter it's large HP.

4) This something almost every monster needs: not have super annoying AoEs, buffs, or debuffs.

5) Have a camp with at least 5 or 6 pops on a 5-minute timer.

6) The camp must be easy to handle. Either they don't link or they are easy to pull. If the latter, they shouldn't be TOO hard to sleep.


#3 is most interesting and probably most important. We saw this with Qutrub in a way. However, they weren't enough to bring back the style... this was probably due to other factors that they missed from above...

Is there a monster, in FFXI right now, that SE could modify to fit the SC set up perfectly? Yes, the Wivre.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Category:Wivre

They have #1, 5, and 6 down perfectly... with frontal Cone AoE and a Defense bonus from the front. Their camp is awesome, couldn't be better really. They do not turn if hate is changed, simply begin to attack with their tail.

#2 is sort of fulfilled as they have very high HP. I don't know their job type... but they sound PLD, so they might be Aspir-able. They have very high Defense, but very low Evasion(ITs conning with low evasion with small effort).

Their WSes are mixed: They have a Berserk/Haste effect(very strong haste, like 100%), a SEVERE AoE Attack Down effect(ruins them really), and spike-flail type move. They also have a Defense up ability that greatly increases the defense in their front and back.

The biggest problem is the AoE Attack Down. There should be a way to prevent that. I think the best way would be: It only uses it if hate changes too fast. Like if a PLD or NIN lost hate for a couple seconds, then got it back, the thing wouldn't use it. However, if a meleeburn tried to make it bounce around everywhere, they would get nailed with it.

Really, that would be enough, all you need to do is work on making SCs worthwhile. A simple boost could do this: While Weapon Skills receive no damage bonus, Skillchain Damage and spells that are MB'd receive a HUGE bonus and are never resisted. Let's say a flat 50% bonus on SC damage(and since it's never getting resisted... that's the WS damage * 1.5 more damage) and an additional 50% Bonus on MB'd spells... which is 80% without a BLM stacking MB+ gear on.

So let's see: Let's say the set up is BLU and SAM and BLM. They are going to do Light.

Don't bust me on this, but let's say BLU uses Savage Blade, for the fact it's Fragmentation. SAM will use Tachi: Kasha. The BLM, with three Merits in Burst II will use that. BLU will MB with Mind Blast. Let's say the BLM lacks Relic Gloves and Static Earring.

Let's say the BLU does 500 Damage and the SAM does 1200 Damage. The SC will do 1800 Damage and the BLM would hit around 1300 or 1400 damage without the MB bonus(depending on how well geared he was), with the bonus of 89%, he does 2646 Damage. I'm not sure how much mind Blast does usually, but I'm going to say maybe 400 Damage? If that's that 800 Damage.

500 + 800 + 1200 + 1800 + 2646 = 5146 Damage. I don't think Wivre have that much more than that... I could imagine physical attacks to build TP covering the difference.

Sorry about the really random numbers, I haven't been in an lvl 75 exp party in roughly a year, let alone one with a BLU.

The last change is... if they are not "PLD" tyoe mobs already, make them that, so BLM(and DRK and /BLM) can Aspir.



Another thing they could do for SCs, which would help A LOT for jobs with magic that they don't use (DRK, PLD, even WHM) and a job like SMN, is add a Conserve MP effect to Magic Bursting.

Something 100%. Conserve MP saves you by making you pay 15/16 to 8/16(1/2) MP cost. This bonus would need to be 8/16 to 4/16, that's 1/2 to 1/4 MP cost.

I would restrict this bonus to SC Levels 2 and higher, just to be on the safe side.

This would have a HUGE effect on SMN using Magical BPs in parties... hell, it might even let SMNs who are not curing let their Avatar build TP.

For BLMs, it lets them MB AM II magic without fear of killing their reserves. I'm not sure how many of you are aware, but Thunder IV is much better than Burst II(or any AM) by a good ratio. Burst II is 2.47~ Damage per MP and Thunder IV is around 3.14~ I think. However, AM II was meant to be MB'd (just look at those merit upgrades). The same could be said for the Merit SMN BPs, in fact, the exact same thing could be said when comparing their Physical BPs.

With this change, a BLM can MB a AM II for between 143.5 MP and 71.75 MP. That's a Stone IV and Blizzard II.

If that doesn't bring back SCs, nothing will. And it wouldn't be broken if compared to the current meleeburn tactic. It would turn BLM to "lol downtime" to "I have to learn to MB now?".

Let me tell you, it would do a lot for BLM for things like Assaults and small group things. I don't see it having too much of an effect on BLM for the big things outside something like Kirin(where you go all out)... because you don't only stop and rest for MP, you have to keep your hate in check. Really, this only helps LSes that gimp themselves by not accepting some zerg tactics.

Now this would have an even bigger effect on SMN, who would feel the boost with their tier II/IV nukes and magical BPs. I wouldn't be surprised if SMN could turn into a full out DD if not put into the healer's spot, at least before merit-range. Shiva could use Rush to build TP fast and Blizzard IV would be reduced a good deal. Now if you put some effort into an avatar with a good supporting BP?(Garuda, Titan, Fenrir... especially Fenrir, he's cheap) SMNs won't need to switch out and lose TP.

I can see BLU also benefiting a lot from this, but I don't know a big deal about the job. I do know Magical attacks are not popular in exp due to physicals being more damaging. This would probably fix that.

Things get interesting when you consider a PLD never really uses all his MP in exp parties anymore. Maybe that weak, but hate-grabbing Holy for 50 or 25 MP might be useful sometimes. If the party was built for it, WHMs could have fun with their Banish spells. I doubt a DRK would find much mileage with this, but consider they have a good deal of MAB gear and B Elemental Skill... well, I don't know. RDMs will dig it, that's for sure.


A camp with a monster designed for SC+MB exp at 75 and the exp reduction I named above? I think it would be enough to bring back SCs to at least a decent popularity.

And I'm done.

[Callisto]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

Aksannyi

It all depends on the kind of invite that you take. If you don't want to main heal, don't take the invites asking you to, believe me you'll find another party. And once you hit merit level, you'll have plenty of options. Most of the merit parties I get invited to I'm asked to be puller rather than healer, and I usually do that /DRK - LOADS of fun by the way, especially vs. Greater Colibri, you can't really cast on them, so I break out the ESword and eat some sole sushi, put out about half the DD of a SAM, not stellar but when you consider that it's your Refresher doing that it's not bad at all.

To the point of the thread: I don't know if new spells are really needed for RDM, I already have quite a selection, and really you can do anything you need to as RDM if you gear for it. I have a slight gripe about Bio 3 being Bio instead of Poison 3, it'd be nice if my big tier 3 DoT was based on my Enfeebling skill and not my Dark Magic, but otherwise my only wishes would probably be a new JA just to have something else to play with. I always thought that Celes' Runic ability from FF6 would be fun, the ability to absorb the next spell cast by a mob and pocket the MP. Alternately, I'd headbutt a kitten to be able to use Vorpal Blade without WAR/PLD/DRK sub, which may be possible if the rumors are true about Vorpal Sword, but I'll have to wait until someone on Ramuh actually has one of those to find that out.

[Malevolent]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

Or they could get off their asses and finally add Mystic Knight.

Ok you've mentioned this a few times but i don't remember in any FF game where there was a Mystic Knight.....

[Callisto]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

Ok you've mentioned this a few times but i don't remember in any FF game where there was a Mystic Knight.....

FF5, it was one of the powerhouse jobs with its 'Magic Sword' ability. As described above, pretty much Enspells on roids.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

Paladin has no magic they can call their own. The recent Rampart adjustment grants Stoneskin to the PLD and members in area of effect, which sparks an interesting question of why not give them the Stoneskin spell and Stoneskin II as an exclusive amoung other possible, protective magic.

i like this, PLD with stoneskin will make our {Meat}{shield} job more easy and i think that will give us more atention when pt'ing cuz almost every pt wants a NIN tank because is "easier" for the WHM's that way but with Stoneskin PLD can tank almost the same way NIN does. prolly the only problem with this will be the cast time cuz Stoneskin is a very long casting spell(if u r not a RDM),flash can help for like 5 sec but i think that's not enogh so will be hard to keep Stoneskin up.
Also i think PLD should hv Shell IV (lvl75) for more self-magic-protection cuz some times if theres no WHM or RDM with us that's a problem when fighting some mage's mobs

[BurningPanther]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

Actually, I would have liked to see PLD get Phalanx, it seemed only natural for them to share it with RDM.

[Malacite]

Re: Will SE be adding more magic exclusives to various jobs?

PLD should really get na spells IMO... and give RDM Poison 3 already >. >



While it would suck for those who've already spent the merits, I think all 6 spells for RDM in category 2 should be replaced by new traits/abilities and made into scrolls. Meriting for magic is just silly IMO, and while a number of those spells are amazing, the limited points you can allocate to make them worthwhile kills RDM's versatility IMO.

In short; NO MORE MERITED SPELLS PLEASE! Just make the scrolls a total pain to get (not abjuration pain but not something silly like assault points either)