What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

[Armando]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I am of the opinion that if EXP chains reset to 0 after a certain number (say, 15,) you'd fix a lot of things without affecting game mechanics, job balance or player vs mob balance.

I also agree that many WS need to be boosted. Also, it would be great if crit WS with significantly less hits *cough Raging Rush cough* had significantly higher crit rates than those with high hits (I'm looking at you, 6-hit Rampage.)

EDIT: Alternatively, the window of opportunity for keeping the chain going could continue to decrease.

[Sevv]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I am of the opinion that if EXP chains reset to 0 after a certain number (say, 15,) you'd fix a lot of things without affecting game mechanics, job balance or player vs mob balance.
I also agree that many WS need to be boosted. Also, it would be great if crit WS with significantly less hits *cough Raging Rush cough* had significantly higher crit rates than those with high hits (I'm looking at you, 6-hit Rampage.)

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Rampage

5 hits

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

it was a minor change. there was a glitch with it that SE didn't fix for awhile (the 'too close'/'too far' penalties were meant to limit just skill based racc/ratt, not food and gear.) but standing in the sweet spot meant -just as much- damage as it did before. the only thing you couldn't do now was tank the mob while cranking out a 2k sidewinder.

the recent readjustment to ranger just made the 'sweet spot' much wider, because now gear and food racc/ratt weren't penalized as well.

Nice recovery at the second paragraph there, but the problem with the nerf was not so much the damage, that could be regained by /WAR mostly. It was more to the end that accuracy gear and foods were not factor at all. That's what really hurt, SE broke the trait were supposed to be kings in - accuracy.

whm does just fine but most whitemages don't know how to play in merit, since it's a different discipline than it is for events/earlier exp. redmage playstyle is largely the same between merit and events so the learning curve is much less steep

WHMs know how to merit, they just can't do a roaming PT well w/o /SMN and a refresher to back them.

2) blm doesn't have to solo. blackmage can burn with other blackmages for 15k/hr too. how is getting 3 blm rdm brd x any hard than getting 3 war rdm brd x?

Because most BRDs are snots that prefer melee PTs. Really, I wish I was kidding here. I've had BLMs thank me for coming out to manaburn with them after several BRD turned them down for melee PTs. Manaburns may get nice EXP per hour, but the perception is that melee PTs get more, which is true to an extent. What manaburns get is nothing to sneeze at, though. I actually find manaburns relaxing.

3) pld/war is a dead job combo at 75. (situationally usefully, like drg/mage) if plds learned to main sub ninja and wear -melee- gear. they'd get parties. A+ weapon, high strength and backup healing make a great combo for merit when you put it in DD gear. in tanking gear? pass.[/quote]

Gotta disagree here. PLD/WAR is best Nyzul/Thickets tank, hands down. NIN or /NIN gets a link and you are dead, PLD can laugh off the beatings. I've had some amazing PTs with PLDs down there. Not bad in Caedarva, either.

4) thief does more damage via DOT build anyway - and it's not like they can't SA/TA etc etc in a merit, they just have to *gasp* pay more attention to party cadence to estimate tp.

THF is a positioning based job. Its a problem BRD and COR share, too. Its not as easy as you think to always get people to line up, some people will not line up for SA. Ever. You have to catch them off guard because they think you will TA them.

Point is, SATA is dead as of 55+. That shouldn't be.

(aside: sam change did what for ranger? I guess seigan + fire staff so you gain meditate but that seems like a big price to pay to give up either F/K + utsu or berserk) 10% haste is huge, the issue is less with job traits and more with the fact that destroyers are too close to relic power and ridill.. well. *might as well be* a relic. (lolbravura)

+5 STR, Seigan and meditate. RNG can get enough ranged attack and accuracy to give it up on main and off hand. Whatever the loss elsewhere, you get the opportunity to do more Slugwinders, which arguably covers the loss of DW for accuracy or Bezerk for more attack.

give a sam a relic level weapon, and they're on par/better than BB-mnk and ridill-war, depending on other gear.

I lolMap every time I'm reminded of how a SAM got a fully upgraded relic GK on my server... with a level 25 WAR sub in his screengrab.

yeah. bst needs an adjustment. SE promised one and I'm sure it's coming eventually.

They keep promising it, we keep waiting. We've been waiting since the MPK patch. I levelled BST pre-leave before the patch and I've periodically levelled it since then. Its managable, but after CoP was said and done, it seems we're totally ignored.

[Armando]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

5 hits

Dual Wield.

[Lmnop]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Maybe I'm off, but I picture someone kinda snapping under the pressure in that last post, Sev.

Let's take this bit by bit, friendly-like ('cuz we all love each other, right?).

First off, I can't very well make a perfect standard party layout, can I? Who's fault is that? Players. I invite a PLD, the BRD disbands. I invite a BLU, the RDM who replaced the BRD disbands. The PLD is either a super-turtle /war, or he's a DD "I insist on a NIN main" pld/nin. When will they realize they can still be "tank" (insofar as he holds hate 'til first WS and does what he can afterwards to negate damage) and still contribute to DD? This is a fault of the players. The Dark Knight with some of the best gear is an idiot and insists on dual wielding axes when he could sub sam or even war because there's a PLD around. Who's fault is that? Players.

-support jobs who could be burning for 15-20k/hour who're unhappy
-DD who cannot adjust to different party layouts
-Paladins who cannot adapt

People cry about tp burns, yes we get more exp then standard parties but you are not forced to tp burn. Like Blm were not forced to mana burn or rangers forced to arrow burn.

When all the elements of a terrific standard party are also elements of a terrific tp burn party, you do have to burn, now don't you? I understand what you mean -- it is physically possible for me to press the invite button on a RDM who happens to be nice enough for a standard party. Free will states that yes, it's true, I can build a standard party if I try long enough for some decent members. But free will also states that those 5 other people's Free Will prefer TP burn. This isn't because it's terribly fun, though. This is because it gets twice as much exp for half as much effort.

TP burns didn't kill DRK invites, I never said they did. DRKs are only invited when there aren't any WARs to fill the slot, and only if they can play wannabe war/nin. And last I knew, you quit DRG for good. So I figured your DRG burn days were behind you. Afterall, anything your DRG can do your NIN can do better, right?

It's true no one "makes" you level any job to merit on another. But then... I don't know many DRGs with capped merits who's only 75 job is DRG. In fact, never ever even once heard of it.

Rampage is 5 hits + 1 hit offhand, btw. Any Dual Wield WS gets +1 hit (though it won't have any tp->crit mods).

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

mashing several posts together.

This is because it gets twice as much exp for half as much effort.

half as much time, maybe. half as much effort? I think you got it reversed.

Nice recovery at the second paragraph there, but the problem with the nerf was not so much the damage, that could be regained by /WAR mostly. It was more to the end that accuracy gear and foods were not factor at all. That's what really hurt, SE broke the trait were supposed to be kings in - accuracy.

yeah. you needed be *on* the sweet spot, which could suck at alot of camps where you didn't have the space.

WHMs know how to merit, they just can't do a roaming PT well w/o /SMN and a refresher to back them.

I won't go into the math (it's several other places on these boards, mostly in the whitemage forums I think) but /blm is better than /smn if you're casting enough (the number is surprisingly low, actually) - and a whitemage will have a refresher backing them in a roaming pt: what they won't necessarily have, is two. modern merit parties don't roam anyway really. - the issue with most whitemages is an ingrained fear of letting anyone who got hit stay yellow for more than a few seconds. which is why I stated they don't know how to merit.

Because most BRDs are snots that prefer melee PTs. Really, I wish I was kidding here...I actually find manaburns relaxing.

most bards do too.. in fact, none of the bards I know personally prefers a melee merit to a manaburn, although everyone has different tastes and I'm not on your server.

Gotta disagree here. PLD/WAR is best Nyzul/Thickets tank, hands down.

who uses tanks at 75? :silly:

I mean, yes. if you're using a tank, pld/war is good. most merit parties aren't configured with a tank (and a lack of a tank actually increases the efficiency of a whm main healer, I can't speak for rdm main healing here.) and as such, pld/nin is the better combo. pld/nin is a better combo for hnm too. leaving pld/war as the preferred sub (situationally) for events like dynamis/limbus etc.

THF is a positioning based job. Its a problem BRD and COR share, too. Its not as easy as you think to always get people to line up, some people will not line up for SA. Ever. You have to catch them off guard because they think you will TA them.

no one needs to be in front of a thief for SA to work. and TA works from any direction provided someone is in front of you. stacking them does less damage at merit levels than using them seperately anyway.

Point is, SATA is dead as of 55+. That shouldn't be.

I still get asked to /thf on sam in the 60's. it's not dead yet on my server.

+5 STR, Seigan and meditate. RNG can get enough ranged attack and accuracy to give it up on main and off hand. Whatever the loss elsewhere, you get the opportunity to do more Slugwinders, which arguably covers the loss of DW for accuracy or Bezerk for more attack.

I'm not sure that 60TP every 3 minutes really covers an average +15% attack 100% of the time, but I'm not high enough to have a chance to compare myself, so I won't disagree. is it really that much of a boost over rng/nin or rng/war, or is it more of a comparable playstyle sub? (like sam/rng to sam/war sam/thf )

I lolMap every time I'm reminded of how a SAM got a fully upgraded relic GK on my server... with a level 25 WAR sub in his screengrab.

map has a pretty good setup now iirc, although I had rukenshin in mind when I was talking about high end SAM. it does seem to be a trend among amano users that they don't have 37 war when they screenshot their relic (I'll go delevel my subjob if I ever finish a relic of any sort; just for the lulz. )

stuff about weak mob defense

mobs have similar defense to players, actually. most merit mobs have 330-370 defense undebuffed. perhaps our gear is just getting too good? people would complain if the gear didn't matter though. or if you had to have elite gear just to merit.

they've actually made mobs that are super vulnerable to SC+MB (qutrubs) but no one exp's off them. they're VT too and like -ga magic so you could easily take a paladin tank.

RDM should not have access to tier 4 White Magic, they're in-between of BLM and WHM. That's what gives them the edge on top of refresh.

they are one tier behind in both mainlines, and two tiers behind in several sublines. the balance is pretty much there, the only real issue is that healing skill has no noticeable effect on healing magic (as saren pointed out) so a cure that is a tier low and 50 skill behind isn't the joke that a nuke that is a tier low and 50 skill behind is.

[warriors are] used to tank grands even, they are very much tanks.

beyond one linkshell on one server, I'm not aware of any linkshells that used war to tank grand wyrms (IRON on Bismarck; war/whm for aerial tanks) and members of IRON have even stated it was as much about putting extra m.bodies to use as it was about using warriors to tank.

using a war to tank is similar to using a blackmage to heal. both can do it, but both are significantly better in other roles.

Other thing is that every job actually feels more competitive than BRD.

good bards stand out in skills, and not gear. merit bard is one of the most nuanced jobs in the game right now. right up there with rdm/nin hnm tanking.

Any other melee sub can be better when not 100% zerging. Its called "walking the hate line." This also involves team play, like SATAing the tank and actual hate control. SC/MB and all that, too.

the advantage to /nin (and now /sam) is that you don't have to walk the hate line.

mnk/war is more damage than mnk/nin, when allowed to go all out. mnk/war basically doesn't get to go all out in merit. so mnk/nin is the better sub - monk player doesn't have to feel like he's intentionally holding back, and when he does get hate, he doesn't have to feel guilty for being an mp-sponge. best of both worlds.

it's similar for other jobs too. also: what should a warrior sub, again? the issue for war isn't traits, it's that rampage is mechanically broken. (and I mean this in the strictest sense of broken possible, not the 'omg I hate it it's unbalancing' sense.)

We don't need more ways to mitigate damage, we need less. There needs to be a sense of danger and risk.

SE has planned from day 1 for players to exp on T-VT. that it took us four years to figure it out doesn't somehow mean that the deaths and stupidly long fights that we all got used to against IT+++ beetles and crawlers and crabs is the *right* way to do things.

about the last thing any sane player should want is for there to be a significant risk of exp loss during exp.

Zanshin is activated off a miss. Its not really the same thing as Doube Attack, it more of a mulligan.

agreed here. to be as good as double attack it would need to activate anywhere from twice to twenty times as often as double attack. (how often it activates, is unclear. and yes, I realize twenty times as often as double attack is technically 200%).

Its really embarassing how SE has totally sidestepped any real updates for MNK, BST, WHM and THF in the last year. I'm talking pre-merit job adjustments here, they could use some attention.

whitemage was one of the first jobs to get an adjustment actually.. it's just too bad the adjustment was supremely minor (divine veil). monk doesn't need anything. thief got the damage of every dagger boosted and not by an insignificant amount, and the removal of the tp floor indirectly aided thief because now they could use *real* dot daggers and not just 150 delay ones. -and- one of the defining pieces of endgame gear for thief is now available for less than the price of one einherjar. Beast could use the help though yeah.

And I wouldn't mind seeing NIN and BRD get some actual job abilities to make subbing them more interesting.

this seems to contradict a little bit your statements earlier about not wanting people to /nin but I think you mean this in conjunction with somehow decreasing the value of ninja sub for utsusemi/dual-wield?

and bard used to be the tank sub until SE decided to nerf it, so I think SE is satisfied with where bard is in terms of sub-ability.

wow.. wall of text^^:

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Weak defense isn't a reason for any of that... it's more effective to spam WS on ITs and higher(including most HNM). SCs are only really worth it with BLM around, which isn't always the case. BLMs (or SMN) don't benefit enough from SCs. If you want a SC now, before(if ever) SE makes adjustments to make it more popular... invite a BLU.

Double Minuet is still LOL. I could only imagine that being done with a three BRD party.

This game needs more damage mitigation, you don't know what you are talking about. The more damage mitigation from main job and sub job, the less reason players have to sub NIN which encourages more playing styles.

I agree on healing skill. I think it needs an effect similar to Summoning magic: a bonus for going over cap. Mainly this trait would be available to WHM and PLD. I'm thinking a conserve MP effect for endurance's sake.

For every skill point over cap(from gear/merits) or 240 gives a conserve MP bonus on Healing Magic(including Raise). (Skill points over cap/240)/2 = % of conserve MP. This cap at 50%(or 100 skill points over cap or 340 skill). This conserve MP effect will have a 50% chance of activating on WHM, 25% chance on PLD, 15% chance for RDM or WHM subbed. If Conserve MP activates at the same time, then the higher reduction takes place.

The problem with SCs, tanks, higher tier enfeebling, and so on isn't being used is due to the fact there aren't monsters designed especially for them. I quote to you, why Wyve could almost be that monster:

f SE wants to bring back SC+MB, along with SMNs using offensive magical BPs and BLMs getting back into exp parties, I'd say the best way to do it would be to add a Conserve MP buff to Magic Bursts. Like a big one.

100% activation rate. 8/16 to 4/16 MP reduction(MP cost * ratio). Maybe restrict to Level 2 SCs and above.

With this change, a BLM can MB a AM II for between 143.5 MP and 71.75 MP. That's a Stone IV and Blizzard II. This kind of gives a reason to merit single spells, vs Thunder IV.

The same could be said for the merited Magical BPs SMN got.

Earlier on, this would help SMN a lot, I could even see potential for SMN being used as DD(still keeping buffs up) if he isn't curing. Those lvl 60 Magical nuke BPs suddenly might find themselves with a use.

I don't know a lot about BLU, but from what I hear, Magical attacks in parties are not popular in parties because of the inferiority compared to melee attacks. Seeing how BLU love making their own SCs, I could see this helping them a lot.

I imagine if a PLD has enough MP to burn during exp, he could even throw in a MB for extra hate, but that probably would require some actual "nuking" gear for that to go anywhere.

If the party allows it, WHMs and RDMs might see this as an excuse to throw in a nuke once in awhile. Maybe, just maybe, DRK might find a use for their B elemental skill, seeing how they seem to be getting more and more MAB gear and their MP pools are being treated with more respect nowadays. But I doubt it lol...

As you might notice, this isn't really much of an end-game change. I could see this having quite a positive effect for BLMs and SMNs on stuff like Assault. For actual NMs, I don't think it would make things too broken for BLM, as hate would still be an issue. And SMNs would be still probably prefer physical BPs. If anything, this just makes using SC+MB a little more attractive, but not superior to zerging. Which is good, because no nerfing is involved.

Would do a lot to make SCs more popular 40 -> 70 I bet, but meleeburns would probably still dominate as soon as they appear. However, this does set some groundwork: if SE were ever to add monsters who were SC+MB dependent and granted a lot of exp to keep up with fast kills, it could work.

Actually, if they messed with Wivre a bit to fit the old school set up, you would have a perfect camp for it. 5-min repop and like 8 of them... almost never touched while people are killing Colibri.

If they made the following changes to them, all of them, they might just be perfect for those who would try it:

-When using Berserk/Haste, Shield proc rate against them goes up by a lot, surpassing cap. (Maybe a solid 25%? or 10% over cap)
-They only uses their AoE Attack Down if hate is all over the place. If a PLD loses hate, maybe once or twice only in a battle, the Wivre will never use it. A party without a tank would get nailed like normal though.
-50% Damage from SCs and MBs. (Maybe with SCs getting an accuracy boost against them)
-Aspir-able. (I think they might already be this way, they sound like PLD-type monsters to me)

If you combined these, you would have the perfect SC+MB and tank mob for level 75... at least the closest you could get to perfect.

No more crying Allatards... if you want an oldschool party, grab your non-WARs and non-MNKs and ask a RDM real nicely and you could totally pull it off.

[Malacite]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

As a side note, it would be pretty cool if we could keep EXP chains going on any level of mob (except TW obviously) but possibly make the chain bonus based on the difficulty of the mob + the # in the chain? I dunno... just a thought.


And yes I totally agree with Legal Fish that damage mitigation is a huge issue in this game. Personally I think that defense really should have a much larger impact on damage taken. PLD should seriously be a freaking wall. Utsusemi is too good IMO, but nerfing it anymore wouldn't be the right answer either.
Let's summarize what we've got so far;

1. Skill Chains: More damage, a massive drop in resist rates (they are WAY too high) and perhaps greater bonuses for bursting on a chain (such as further increased potency, power, or conserve MP)
2. Damage Mitigation: Put simply, Utsusemi is freaking broken. DEF and VIT are seemingly pointless, and suffer diminishing returns by end game. A change to the damage calcultaion formulas, and perhaps new abilites for PLD is in order.
3. EXP on IT(++) mobs: There isn't enough incentive to go out and fight the really tough enemies anymore. SE should greatly increase the EXP from IT and higher mobs to make a tradtional SC + MB party (and higher tier enfeebles) actually worthwhile, if not on par with TP and Manaburns

[Akashimo]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

no one needs to be in front of a thief for SA to work. and TA works from any direction provided someone is in front of you. stacking them does less damage at merit levels than using them seperately anyway.

Stacking does at times do more than serpate. Also stacking improves ws than sa/ta alone. Sides, exp off a mob that you can use hide on, instant SATA without needing to truely line up. A thf worth their merits knows how to get around with unwilling people for SATA.

whitemage was one of the first jobs to get an adjustment actually.. it's just too bad the adjustment was supremely minor (divine veil). monk doesn't need anything. thief got the damage of every dagger boosted and not by an insignificant amount, and the removal of the tp floor indirectly aided thief because now they could use *real* dot daggers and not just 150 delay ones. -and- one of the defining pieces of endgame gear for thief is now available for less than the price of one einherjar. Beast could use the help though yeah.

Yeah, divine veil helps, but soo little and to little effect most of the time I actually use DS -na or erase. And from playing both rdm and whm in end game.... if it wasn't for the fact I hate curing on rdm... rdm does more effiently than whm -.- why? refresh and convert. Skill really has nothing to do with cures until Cure V. But that is too little too late. Hell, only real time I notice weak cures is on smn now. Those just can't keep up with rdm or whm's. Anything, whm should get a trait that conserves mp on healing magic spells and a fast cast for those lines. Topple a possible +#% mp back for how much you cure for, we could out do rdms in the job we're supposed to be.


/nin is just sadly too popular and like bbq been saying, making tp burns more lazy for ppl. Last time i got a chance to merit was on thf/war in nyzle. Not for very long mind you -.-; Supports leave in less than a hour. Whats worse, leader asked me to come on rdm cause he saw my bazzar comment. In that setup, i'd be the only mage. Not no way, not no how. So we eneded up disbanding.

THF dagger boost wasn't all that noticeable to me. Most daggers just can't cut it anymore to me. And majority of swords I've seen in the 50s do the same dmg as a dagger would in the 70s. Leveling pld and smn now, its almost impossible to get a party to set up for SATA. I swear.... thfs that do half ass like a tp burn onry bard really makes my blood boil.... Then comes sams that master our job using it as a sub still just TA or SA someone else and easily out do us -.-; Single hit sam > multi hit thf. Hell, thf/war + seiryu's sword can do same dmg as I would with my heart snatcher just slower swings and less crits. And TA Vorpal Blade does as much as TA Shark Bite >_>;;;

[Armando]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Stacking does at times do more than serpate. Also stacking improves ws than sa/ta alone. Sides, exp off a mob that you can use hide on, instant SATA without needing to truely line up. A thf worth their merits knows how to get around with unwilling people for SATA.

Stacking them doesn't outperform doing them separate unless you're skillchaining, and that's because of the skillchain damage itself.

Stacking does at times do more than serpate. Also stacking improves ws than sa/ta alone. Sides, exp off a mob that you can use hide on, instant SATA without needing to truely line up. A thf worth their merits knows how to get around with unwilling people for SATA.

Regardless of how THF stacks up against other jobs, the dagger change was pretty big. Even just 2-3 more DMG makes a difference, and much more so on a fast weapon like a dagger.

And majority of swords I've seen in the 50s do the same dmg as a dagger would in the 70s.

Isn't that ok? Swords are also much slower, and THF is the only job other than NIN that can get TP faster through Dual Wield.

Hell, thf/war + seiryu's sword can do same dmg as I would with my heart snatcher just slower swings and less crits. And TA Vorpal Blade does as much as TA Shark Bite >_>;;;

Again, the speed actually matters. Not to mention a THF using Seiryu's sword is going to whiff a lot more than one using daggers.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Weak defense isn't a reason for any of that... it's more effective to spam WS on ITs and higher(including most HNM). SCs are only really worth it with BLM around, which isn't always the case. BLMs (or SMN) don't benefit enough from SCs. If you want a SC now, before(if ever) SE makes adjustments to make it more popular... invite a BLU.

Why do RDM not get to enfeeble any more? Its just because people WS as soon as possible, its because the mobs take damage so easily there is simply no need for the RDM to enfeeble the mob. Enfeebling versus IT+++ gives a PT endurace, a PT doesn't need that endurance when the target mobs have low defense and low HP by default.

Its all about the defense. weren't you just the one that said SE needs to make IT+++ mobs that give more EXP to make SC/MB parties attractive to players again? If that's not an admittance that these mobs are signifigantly weaker, I don't know what is.

Double Minuet is still LOL. I could only imagine that being done with a three BRD party.

Sorry, but if a RNG gets anything but minuet x2, the BRD's gonna find that flute up his ass for giving out uneeded prelude. You buff for all the melees, not some of them.

BRDx3, BRDx2 even is wasting slots in PT.

This game needs more damage mitigation, you don't know what you are talking about. The more damage mitigation from main job and sub job, the less reason players have to sub NIN which encourages more playing styles.

I'd find that agreeable if - and only if - NIN got Utsusemi: Ni as exclusive. If other jobs can get damage mitigation, then NIN should retain the superior form of damage mitigation. SE still has some work to do with PLD, I'd rather not see them banking on NIN to what they do - endgame or otherwise.

The problem with SCs, tanks, higher tier enfeebling, and so on isn't being used is due to the fact there aren't monsters designed especially for them.

Yes, colibri resist and bounce magic. Yes, Imps and Jnun are resistant to dark magic. Yes, Puks, being chimera, are resistant to. But not so for the rest of ToA and not much else in the game does. The weak mob def and low HP of the mobs make it even more pointless to do so. Flies are supposed to have low DEF, they have high damage attacks to balance that out, no problem there.

Eruca and Defoliators are really the only chance RDM gets to do any enfeebling in ToA.

I mean, yes. if you're using a tank, pld/war is good. most merit parties aren't configured with a tank (and a lack of a tank actually increases the efficiency of a whm main healer, I can't speak for rdm main healing here.) and as such, pld/nin is the better combo. pld/nin is a better combo for hnm too. leaving pld/war as the preferred sub (situationally) for events like dynamis/limbus etc.

But you see, there are people - and I realize this might come as a shock - that play PLD to tank. They want to /WAR just as much as I do on RNG.

Maybe I'm not the easily annoyed jerk I thought I was, but to me a merit PT doesn't always have to be Melee x4/support/RDM. I've had "burn" PTs get shredded by the possible links in Nyzul Thickets and I know the snot-ass BRDs aren't going to go with PLD tank. PLD can take the hits in ways WAR/NIN and NIN/WAR just can't here.

In fact, pair him up with THF, SAM, DRG or RNG and a WHM + support and you'll do just fine, get 10k+ an hour easily. DRG and RNG are especially potent in this area. Don't need WARs or MNKs to make it happen, you don't even need a BRD for it.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Sorry, but if a RNG gets anything but minuet x2, the BRD's gonna find that flute up his ass for giving out uneeded prelude. You buff for all the melees, not some of them.

BRDx3, BRDx2 even is wasting slots in PT.

Hi, when you say "party", you mean all melee in the party(you are comparing haste to attack, RNG would never ever want Haste), not one person. This is why you didn't mention ballads. I don't know if you are trying to save face or just didn't think when you said what you said.

BRDx2 is so not very a waste. Thanks for the making me /facepalm though. BRDx3 is a bit of a waste, which is why I say Double Minuet is lol. A COR would better fill that spot.

Why do RDM not get to enfeeble any more? Its just because people WS as soon as possible, its because the mobs take damage so easily there is simply no need for the RDM to enfeeble the mob. Enfeebling versus IT+++ gives a PT endurace, a PT doesn't need that endurance when the target mobs have low defense and low HP by default.

Its all about the defense. weren't you just the one that said SE needs to make IT+++ mobs that give more EXP to make SC/MB parties attractive to players again? If that's not an admittance that these mobs are signifigantly weaker, I don't know what is.

You seem to misunderstand my point of view.

Those options aren't weak because there are weak monsters to exp on in the game.

They are weak because there aren't strong monsters to exp on in the game.

There is no reason to exp on stronger monsters because they do not grant more exp. "Low defense/HP" isn't the reason enfeebles don't get used, it's the lack of "High defense/HP". The game needs more more monsters made for alternative playing styles. Some are already in place, but are either TP-burnable and/or don't have additional traits to make it worthwhile to bring out SC+MB, enfeebles, etc.

To repeat: It's still more effective to spam WSes in nearly every situation without a BLM team.

To change this: SCs need to stop being so LOL on weaker monsters(when I say weaker, I mean not a HNM) and weapon skills that are better to SC with need to be stronger so that using Rampage/Asuran Fists/etc isn't better even if you include the SC damage.

If two people have nigh 95% hit rate, with nearly the same attack speed/TP gain so that they almost always gain 100 TP together(less than 12 seconds apart) a boost to SCs and certain WSes could make it worthwhile to use them even in a TP Burn setting. A few seconds delay would be worth constantly hitting 800 to 1200 damage Lights and Darks. Hell, a full SC could practically take down a monster alone if you include the DoT it took to get to 100% TP.

To be honest, it isn't even "Low Defense". If you are going to be fighting Ts and VTs with good gear(the power of the average player has never been so high) and food you are going to start hitting some caps. Not every monster in the game is going to be PLDs, like Crabs and Beetles.

I'd find that agreeable if - and only if - NIN got Utsusemi: Ni as exclusive. If other jobs can get damage mitigation, then NIN should retain the superior form of damage mitigation. SE still has some work to do with PLD, I'd rather not see them banking on NIN to what they do - endgame or otherwise.

No, that's doing something no one really wants. Even if you give two potent abilities of damage mitigation(from main and sub) you will still probably be better off with /NIN. WAR and MNK have very little need for mitigation beyond /NIN since they don't lose much at all due to sub. Other jobs, this isn't the case.

The only thing bad about PLD/NIN is that is has become a crutch for shitty PLDs. However, plenty shitty PLDs don't even have /NIN leveled. I have no issues with giving PLD more damage mitigation, even if it classes with Shadows, but if anyone wills PLD not to rely on shadows to remain powerful, they must realize there are very powerful flaws in the Defense and Vitality system.

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

The only thing bad about PLD/NIN is that is has become a crutch for shitty PLDs. However, plenty shitty PLDs don't even have /NIN leveled. I have no issues with giving PLD more damage mitigation, even if it classes with Shadows, but if anyone wills PLD not to rely on shadows to remain powerful, they must realize there are very powerful flaws in the Defense and Vitality system.

the funny thing with shitty pld/nins is that they have issues holding hate - so it kind of becomes more obvious it's the paladin instead of your healing team. back in blood tank days, the shitty pld/war would usually *die* before hate was finally taken (since he spiked it way too high early and has no hate or hp endurance).

and I don't see why anyone is upset about /nin being such a popular sub, the placing if utsusemi: ni at 37 was *designed* for /nin to be a flexible mitigation option at 75. (else it would've been placed higher, like refresh or convert was)

/war used to be much more popular and people never complained.

Damage Mitigation: Put simply, Utsusemi is freaking broken. DEF and VIT are seemingly pointless, and suffer diminishing returns by end game. A change to the damage calcultaion formulas, and perhaps new abilites for PLD is in order.

DEF and VIT are only pointless on HNM. which, all things considered *should* kick our collective butts when they get a hit in. -> new HNM's are even designed around the assumption that you'll be using nin/x or x/nin tanks.

they work reasonably well at exp/merit/assault/salvage levels. the issue is that taking a hit is more costly on hate than evading one with a shadow.

the only possible change you could make to the damage calculation formula is either to remove the bonus a monster gets for its level when attack players, or change the inflection point where it starts getting the bonus, or change the magnitude of the incremental bonus - all of which risk 'breaking' merit on T-VT even more.

Yeah, divine veil helps, but soo little and to little effect most of the time I actually use DS -na or erase. And from playing both rdm and whm in end game.... if it wasn't for the fact I hate curing on rdm... rdm does more effiently than whm -.- why? refresh and convert.

not sure what you're saying in the first sentence, but DS -na or erase *is* divine veil. unless you mean you don't do that and use DS+curespell more often?

as for the latter... redmage does have endurance, but it's not even playing in the same league on efficiency. (a whitemage can turn that mp into several magnitudes the amount of HP a redmage can; -especially- in endgame situations).

Anything, whm should get a trait that conserves mp on healing magic spells and a fast cast for those lines.

whitemage did, it's called: curaga, high tier regens, cure speed, regen potency merits, and enough JSE gear to push 30%+ cure potency. whitemages don't need to do their jobs naked and gain so much more in healing ability from gear than redmage ever could.

comments about damage of daggers

you weren't looking at the dot here, only per hit swings. of course the weapon with 4 times your delay was hitting harder on one hit. now, was it hitting -4 times as hard-? I sincerely doubt it.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

he funny thing with shitty pld/nins is that they have issues holding hate

A good PLD shouldn't. The fact you aren't getting hit, constantly casting Utsusemi with a lot of enmity on, and probably getting a hell of a lot of haste... you won't be too far behind a PLD/WAR.

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

A good PLD shouldn't. The fact you aren't getting hit, constantly casting Utsusemi with a lot of enmity on, and probably getting a hell of a lot of haste... you won't be too far behind a PLD/WAR.

oh definitely - I was referring specifically to *shitty* pld/nin's.

pld/nin is my preferred paladin tank for any fight that lasts longer than about 5 minutes. (it's actually better hate long-term because you lose hate slower and your support team generates less from curing you less).

I just find it funny that bad players actually do worse with the better sub.