What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

[Sevv]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

the recast cap is already down several notches (approximately 20% less) from the haste cap. and it would be fairly damaging to both pld/nin and nin/drk since any significant change (as you appear to be proposing here) would heavily nerf the primary hate tools of these two tanks (flash and stun); which was my reason for the comment, not the utsusemi recast change.

Agreed, the haste cap would almost kill those 2 combos. Forcing people to stick to Pld/War and Nin/War for all jobs. "Minor Changes" have drastic effects, it seems alot of people forget this daily. For instance BBQ when the nerf to ranger first came out it wasn't a drastic change, I'm being completely honest here it was a minor change really. But the nerf was horrible the small change had major impact on the job. Now alot of people have been in this thread wanting to make minor nerf here and minor nerfs there, the impact on the game would break this game. I do agree maybe the sc + mb should be boosted a bit, but you forget if you boost sc+mb it would carry into endgame where it is used much more commonly, and be very much exploited. Everyone says 70+ isn't the whole game but neither is 1-70. You have to look out the outcomes for both low levels and endgame to figure out the best solution.

not that nerfing utsusemi would have any real effect on the popularity of blackmage in exp, since blackmage was on the way out (partially facilitated by the blackmage community) long before the NA endgame population stopped using blood tanks.

Nerfing utsusemi again wouldn't help black mages, would hurt blm soloing at low levels tho.

this game -really- isn't as unbalanced as people seem to think. the only job that really needs anything done for it at this point, I think, is probably BST. everything else is mostly wishlists, minor tweaks, or people hoping SE will patch the game in such a way as to force the player community to play in the way that they think the community should play.

Agreed, most people posting a wish list about the jobs, not just this thread. Go to Red Mage forums they have a change rdm thread over there, use to be them in the drg forums all the time, now its just i need hauby /cry. Only job that needs a boost is Bst and Pup. Better Jug pets, a fix of the mpk patch would be nice. I know that really hurt them. Pup getting put on some of the mnk/nin/sam gear would be nice like o-kotes to help them get better damage/pt invites.

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I still maintain that pup was a ninjafix for dragoon.

the job gets taken so much more seriously now that it isn't the redheaded stepchild of the other 14 (17) jobs.

[Mhurron]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Way off topic - PUP was what happens when SE listens to a playerbase that doesn't know what it wants. The playerbase wanted 3 jobs, Blue Mage, Pirate and Necromancer. The dev team decided that the way that undead work in FFXI meant that necro didn't really fit in, so they created a job that controlled a lifeless little robot. The problem was no one knew what they wanted necromancer to do, so they ended up with a job no one knows what to do with.

Incidentally, ToAU mobs are what happens when SE listens to a player base that cares only about itself. Most players are DD so they got zones that favor parties comprised of DD with a support job. The playerbase being what it is parties here to the exclusion of other jobs. They still expect to have PLD and BLM at endgame though which leads to threads like this.

Hey look at that, I almost brought this post back on topic.

[Lmnop]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Wow, Mhurron, I think I agree with every word of your post.

...the impact on the game would break this game.

So let's break this game. Seriously, do any of you really care if tomorrow, THF was top DD and we were back to lolWAR (remember, WAR used to be laughed at for being taken past 37)? What do any of you really care if balance is thrown out the window? For those of you who think that the game is perfectly A OK, you'll probably be in a state of panic. For those of us who think balance has long since been skewed -- well, anything's better than this. I wouldn't mind if S-E made some mistakes trying to get it right, except that they're very stubborn about undoing changes. They cannot stand to say they're wrong, so they insist on breaking things around it.

At any rate, I'm to the point where I wouldn't mind if WHMs started outDDing me. Fear of change is fear of losing your place in the food chain.

[Akashimo]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Way off topic - PUP was what happens when SE listens to a playerbase that doesn't know what it wants. The playerbase wanted 3 jobs, Blue Mage, Pirate and Necromancer. The dev team decided that the way that undead work in FFXI meant that necro didn't really fit in, so they created a job that controlled a lifeless little robot. The problem was no one knew what they wanted necromancer to do, so they ended up with a job no one knows what to do with.
Incidentally, ToAU mobs are what happens when SE listens to a player base that cares only about itself. Most players are DD so they got zones that favor parties comprised of DD with a support job. The playerbase being what it is parties here to the exclusion of other jobs. They still expect to have PLD and BLM at endgame though which leads to threads like this.
Hey look at that, I almost brought this post back on topic.

Is there like a post by the dev team about them saying that about necromancer? If anything, they could have made the option at allowed the automation to take on undead characteristics. Like blu with spells, it learns abilites from undead class mobs only. The Bolded part, 100% agree on.

Wow, Mhurron, I think I agree with every word of your post.
So let's break this game. Seriously, do any of you really care if tomorrow, THF was top DD and we were back to lolWAR (remember, WAR used to be laughed at for being taken past 37)? What do any of you really care if balance is thrown out the window? For those of you who think that the game is perfectly A OK, you'll probably be in a state of panic. For those of us who think balance has long since been skewed -- well, anything's better than this. I wouldn't mind if S-E made some mistakes trying to get it right, except that they're very stubborn about undoing changes. They cannot stand to say they're wrong, so they insist on breaking things around it.
At any rate, I'm to the point where I wouldn't mind if WHMs started outDDing me. Fear of change is fear of losing your place in the food chain.

War was lol? o.O Only jobs I heard were "lol" since I first started was thf, mnk, drg, bst, rng(after nerf). Heh, thf top dog means more ppl leveling it. Hesh, and if people get on the band wangon for this would end up making things worse imho. Jobs shouldn't be "zomg" or "lol". And to the part of whm out DDing you, that just made me lol'd. It'll be the greatest day if they made it more reasonable for whm to be accepted meleeing. Heh.

[Sevv]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

yes when war was lol for a good time back in tp spam when drg was king.

Lmnop why do you want to break the game if you are unhappy with the whole game and how its played.... then stop playing go pick up a new game? That goes for anyone if you hate the current state of affairs and want to change everything, then leave. Nothing is keeping anyone in game, if you truely think its that broken.

[Malacite]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Back when I started in 2003 it was all about DRK and DRG (yes DRG!) those two jobs reigned king in DD. WAR and MNK were both "lol" and you'd be hard pressed to see a RNG out there.

Lmnop is 100% right by the way, SE simply can not admit it when they're wrong. The recent "un-nerfing" of ranged attacks is the first instance of SE undoing a change they've made (at least that I can recall; things get hazy after 4 years of updates)

[Sevv]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

The recent "un-nerfing" of ranged attacks is the first instance of SE undoing a change they've made (at least that I can recall; things get hazy after 4 years of updates)

This is also the reason S-E isn't going to rush into nerfing jobs, the community shouldn't rush into wanting nerfs either. We are suppose to learn from our past mistakes. But atleast S-E understood the fact they messed up and decided to fix it, Rng got a boosted almost back to pre-nerf. It seems more balanced but still powerful in the game which is nice.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Giving BLM really potent DoTs like Burn II, Choke II, and so on... that can go as high as 20/tick, may make them fit in TP burns... just maybe... if you already added things to fix their endurance.

[Malacite]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I wonder how potent the stat-downs would be? I still think they should bring back old spells like Steel. Instead of being a straight attack boost like it was in FF1 (and a freaking powerful one at that) maybe it could be a direct boost to your damage rating? This would be utterly insane in the case of weaponskills.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

War was lol?

Three years ago, WAR was seen as a mediocre tank/DD hybrid. People were always like "If you want to tank, ditch WAR and go PLD. If you want to DD, ditch WAR and go DRK."

I remember having to seek for hours as a WAR. And when I finally got an invite, it was a party that was having no luck finding a PLD to tank. So they would just abuse me as a meat shield and complain openly that their exp was being gimped by not having a more efficient tank.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Agreed, the haste cap would almost kill those 2 combos. Forcing people to stick to Pld/War and Nin/War for all jobs.

"Minor Changes" have drastic effects, it seems alot of people forget this daily. For instance BBQ when the nerf to ranger first came out it wasn't a drastic change, I'm being completely honest here it was a minor change really.

Yes, minor like a steel-toed boot to the nuts. It was to appease the melee masses and humilate the bandwagoneers. Who ultimately got screwed? the people that loved that job, worked hard at it and weren't in it for an endgame mealticket.

But the nerf was horrible the small change had major impact on the job. Now alot of people have been in this thread wanting to make minor nerf here and minor nerfs there, the impact on the game would break this game.

The game is broken now. WHMs get passed over by RDM for the main healer slot often, BLM has to solo, PLD gets table scraps for EXP, but is needed as a tank at endgame. No one sets up SATA for THFs, nobody. The old SATA THF and DRG team is dead, THFs are told not to SATA people.

WAR? Still never tanks. A tanking job that doesn't tank. Brilliant. SAM adjustment came and went, nothing changed with WARs, they still sub /NIN. SAM change was awesome for DRG, DRK, RNG and... SAM. Pretty much it, but even then the haste given from Hasso doesn't really bring the two-handers up to par with the WARs and MNKs.

And I hate to repeat this, but...

BRD can show up to merit in shoddy gear a flute with no bonuses. People will tolerate it, worse, he'll still get invites. The buffs, even without skill gear and proper instruments are more poweful than what a COR can offer without complimentary job present for thier buffs. If I get a DRG, BLU, and PLD on the frontlines, I'm screwed, there's nothing good to buff those guys with. Pet magic attack, Magic Defense Bonus... Blaze spikes? Subtle Blow from MNK? Trash. Oh and I get a penalty for busting. Where's the penalty for mismatching instruments with songs? God knows the people who craft instruments could use a motive to do so for a real profit and BRDs could stand to spend a little more.

PUP is a work in progress, I think we're now in beta for PUP.

But is BST really even on SE's radar? Not only are the ToA zones wholly unattractive solo in, there's not much to charm. CoP and RoZ - with the exception of sky, sea, promy, riverne #0B1 and the high end of Ule Range - were brilliantly balanced EXP zones for BST, some of them are still being discovered. ToA is a brainfart by comparison. I can charm puks in Mamool Ja Assault, but not on the field... I shouldn't be able to charm chimera-type to start with.

BSTs ToA gear? Mostly junk. Bibiki Seashell and Fowling earring are cool. Crafted gear from Khimera that's basically the same as thier CoP JSE? The hell? Bad enough these are HNM drops no one wants, its HNM drops that essentially make the same gear as Bison/Brave's set. Its like they had no new ideas for BST.

Can't charm Puks, Colibri highly resistant, can't charm malabro, can't charm treants, can't charm apkallu. I can charm spiders, crawlers, Tigers, sheep, bees, flys, crab... nothing new here except for colibri that only gets harder and harder to charm, even with a truckload of CHR and Apollo's staff.

Oh and we're shunned from PTs, that's fun, too. I want Uncapped jug pets, a relaxed despawn time with Leave or that despawn removed completely and I'd like to call a pet loyal to me without a jug, one of my choosing. I think Beastmaster should be able to have one pet loyal to him, to keep in-line with the AF story.

So yeah, there's a lot for SE to be working on here. You're so worried about losing your precious 10k an hour when so much is else outside of your jobs of preference are screwy. Do I even need to go into the fact people level jobs to merit thier real main job? That's not really a good thing.

[Mhurron]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Is there like a post by the dev team about them saying that about necromancer?

KO: In the beginning when we were thinking of new jobs, we were first thinking of a Necromancer type of job, where the job would be able to raise the undead. However, we couldn't have undeads running around in the morning and that would weaken the class, because they'd only be able to work at night. So from there we tried to think of something where the player would be able to use a puppet type of...slave if you will, at all times of day, and that's how we got to Puppetmaster.

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pa...=0&cId=3148759

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

BBQ, you are wrong about a lot things. The things you are right about are greatly exaggerated.

My whole point is, mobs can be killed in less that 40 seconds without Haste and without attack buffs in a melee PT as is. How you get there is potaytoes potahtoes. One BRD could Double Minuet and another could Double Haste a WAR PT and they're pretty much going to get the same killspeed. One swung faster, the other just hit harder.

How you get there is irrelevant, both paths will still lead to 10k+ an hour. What is relevant is mob defense and Utsusemi recast, which is allow to get too low.

No offense, but this is crap. You can't just say Haste = Attack. Only in a few situations is that true and it's usually when you are giving up smalls amount of haste(think less than 3%) for large amount of attack. Attack gear and food is a very common. Once you hit the accuracy cap, you should be eatting meat, and trying to get as much accuracy as possible. Double Minuet is pretty lol. Haste has increasing returns and attack has dimensioning returns.

Yes, minor like a steel-toed boot to the nuts.

You've fallen into a sarchasm, I do believe.

The game is broken now. WHMs get passed over by RDM for the main healer slot often, BLM has to solo, PLD gets table scraps for EXP, but is needed as a tank at endgame. No one sets up SATA for THFs, nobody. The old SATA THF and DRG team is dead, THFs are told not to SATA people.

Oh boy, the "game is broken"! No, I'm afraid that isn't very true. The game is unbalanced, like almost any game is. Some pieces could use fixing, but the game isn't broken.

1. WHM can still fill the role of healer. Just because they lack the endurance RDM have doesn't mean they are broken. Hopefully one day SE will increase their endurance and everyone will be happy.

2. BLM doesn't HAVE to solo. They can seek and deal with low invites or be party leaders. They can actually be effective members in a party with no tank if they performed correctly. They also lack endurance, like WHM. However, you are forgetting there is little reason for BLM not to solo at times. They will often out-exp standard parties and get a shit-load more Beastmen/Kindred Seals.

3. SHITTY PLDs get table scraps. PLD/NIN can adjust just fine to the TP burn setting. A+ Sword is a terrible thing to waste. Though they lack behind MNK/NIN/WAR, they do add some strong tanking ability to the table and cures.

4. Why would a THF want to SATA post 60 if they aren't using SCs? SA and TA can be used separately for more damage over time.

WAR? Still never tanks. A tanking job that doesn't tank. Brilliant. SAM adjustment came and went, nothing changed with WARs, they still sub /NIN. SAM change was awesome for DRG, DRK, RNG and... SAM. Pretty much it, but even then the haste given from Hasso doesn't really bring the two-handers up to par with the WARs and MNKs.

1. WAR isn't a "tanking job". As SE has said it themselves: they are versatile melee jobs that can do multiple things. People want to focus on the DD area, more power to them.

2. /SAM isn't making a huge change for an entirely different reason, which I'll explain below.

BRD can show up to merit in shoddy gear a flute with no bonuses. People will tolerate it, worse, he'll still get invites. The buffs, even without skill gear and proper instruments are more poweful than what a COR can offer without complimentary job present for thier buffs. If I get a DRG, BLU, and PLD on the frontlines, I'm screwed, there's nothing good to buff those guys with. Pet magic attack, Magic Defense Bonus... Blaze spikes? Subtle Blow from MNK? Trash. Oh and I get a penalty for busting. Where's the penalty for mismatching instruments with songs? God knows the people who craft instruments could use a motive to do so for a real profit and BRDs could stand to spend a little more.

What?! You complaining about your COR?! NO WAY.

Okay BRD is better at COR in most situations. Big deal. COR will still put out damage and be able to fill their role as a support and even puller.

I'm having a hard time reading this... so much "bawwww"... but, I'll try. You can bust, but you can also get lucky. Surprise, surprise, You are playing FFXI's Gambler. Duh.

Good melee rolls > extra bonus. You should always be doing stuff like Fighter's Roll, Hunter's Roll, Chaos Roll, and so on, no matter the set up.

Just quit the job if you have so many problems with it. It isn't exactly popular, but people do enjoy it.

PUP is a work in progress, I think we're now in beta for PUP.

I'm afraid PUP isn't in a beta. It's a weaker job, mainly due to being so expensive to keep up and have near 0 spike damage ability(which really hurts the overall DoT). It was more incomplete at ToAU's release, before the ENM attachments and so on, but it's hardly pathetic or in beta.

But is BST really even on SE's radar? Not only are the ToA zones wholly unattractive solo in, there's not much to charm. CoP and RoZ - with the exception of sky, sea, promy, riverne #0B1 and the high end of Ule Range - were brilliantly balanced EXP zones for BST, some of them are still being discovered. ToA is a brainfart by comparison. I can charm puks in Mamool Ja Assault, but not on the field... I shouldn't be able to charm chimera-type to start with.

BSTs ToA gear? Mostly junk. Bibiki Seashell and Fowling earring are cool. Crafted gear from Khimera that's basically the same as thier CoP JSE? The hell? Bad enough these are HNM drops no one wants, its HNM drops that essentially make the same gear as Bison/Brave's set. Its like they had no new ideas for BST.

Can't charm Puks, Colibri highly resistant, can't charm malabro, can't charm treants, can't charm apkallu. I can charm spiders, crawlers, Tigers, sheep, bees, flys, crab... nothing new here except for colibri that only gets harder and harder to charm, even with a truckload of CHR and Apollo's staff.

Oh and we're shunned from PTs, that's fun, too. I want Uncapped jug pets, a relaxed despawn time with Leave or that despawn removed completely and I'd like to call a pet loyal to me without a jug, one of my choosing. I think Beastmaster should be able to have one pet loyal to him, to keep in-line with the AF story.

1. SE neglecting BST's solo ability? Umpossible.

2. Every job got junk gear and good gear. Unlike some jobs, BST has access to a lot of good gear in the game. Nothing to complain about.

3. #1.

4. BST are very effective DDs in burn party set ups. Not top tier, but they can pull their weight.

So yeah, there's a lot for SE to be working on here. You're so worried about losing your precious 10k an hour when so much is else outside of your jobs of preference are screwy. Do I even need to go into the fact people level jobs to merit thier real main job? That's not really a good thing.

Considering all the jobs you've mention can take part in +10k exp an hour parties... I don't see your point. You might have a tough time getting over +15k even with no competition.


Now, do you know why melee subs outside /NIN fail? It's because of damage mitigation for 2-handers and weakness in certain weapon skills for 1-handed weapon users(who are now dual-wielding).

/SAM was a nice start. Seigan itself could use a little boost: mainly vs AoE physical attacks and magic. Have Seigan equal 3 shadows when dealing with AoE and as 1 shadow when dealing against magic. Seigan is stripped when either occur. Bam! You now have a huge damage mitigation.

Now you need to add more natural damage mitigation and more useful abilities to other subs(and boosting the main at the same time) so that they can be used.

Let's say Mr. SAM with his powerful Seigan and Hasso wants to use /DRG.

Give /DRG something like a "Dodge-Jump"(no, they wouldn't name it that). Anytime a DRG is hit with an attack or single target spell, it "misses" and the DRG jumps into the air and shreds some enmity. Make it on a 1 minute to 2 minute timer.

For the offensive end, give DRG what they seem to be aligned with: Haste.
30 - 4% (a level 30 /DRG can use a wyvern earring to match this)
50 - 8% (at level 60, a DRG and /DRG will have the same haste with wyvern earring)
70 - 12% (now DRG has truly earned their title as Haste kings)

DRG/SAM and SAM/DRG look really tasty now. TP gaining kings, with Zanshin to make up a little for the lack of Double Attack.

Why stop now? Let's look at DRK. Spikes is nice, but they need an earlier ability, especially not a spell that won't work well with Seigan.

Dark Knights seem to love to drain stuff... you know, since SE turned Sentinel into a mini-2hr, why not give DRK the same treatment? It turns the DRK's melee attacks completely magical and into drain attacks. Gain 10% of damage back to health(doesn't work on WS). Much like en-spells, not TP given, very little hate gained(treated as 0 damage), and but to be nice, let's keep TP gain to the player. This wears after 3 hits or something similar. Not only a nice recovery move, but now DRK can do some magical damage! Put it on a semi-long timer: 5 to 6 minutes.

On the offensive end, you've already done something neat: now DRK's and /DRK's can use Soul Eater without much hate gain(beyond initial use) and no HP lose for like 3 hits. (They could also use Soul Eater with WS, cancel Soul Eater, and use this to keep themselves alive/cure to full). That's very sexy, and let's not forget it's magical which can come in handy. But, let's not stop there, let's make Last Resort nice for 2-handers. I got an idea! While keeping the Atk+15% and Def-15%... lower the hate gain and when a WS is used during it, add STR bonus equal to half the DRK's level(+37 at 75, +18 at 37 or when subbed at 75) when the user doesn't have a shield or second weapon equipped.

THF could have some base crit+%... maybe 3% at 30 and 6% at 70. However, what /THF could really use is some damage mitigation. Trick Attack is nice for hate loss, but something like a 1-shadow utsusemi on a 2 minute counter that worked even on AoE attacks and reduced hate slightly when used up would be quite fine.

1-2 hit WSes could use a boost to compete with multi-hit WSes. Steel Cyclone would be used a lot more if it could get 2.50 TP modifier at 100% instead of 1.50.

[Lmnop]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

changes that S-E continues to move back and forth on:
-Chocobo prices
-Chigoe Exp

that's... about it. Everything else, they break things around it... "Wth were we thinking giving RNG B ranked axe, access to Ridill, and close to +50 acc in traits?!? We need to find a way to keep them out of melee but we absolutely can not just gimp their combat skills."

To clarify: I'm not up for breaking the game so much. More like: I'm not against change just because of a fear of it breaking the game further. When Ninjas.... Ninjas... are high end DD, only outdone by BBs and Ridills (sometimes not even then -- I've seen the parses) and people still think DRK sucks... no, that's when I say I don't care where the job priority is tomorrow. I think I'm ready for another "favoritism shift." We've been in ruts before (useless Rdm, impractical RNG, Penta spam, useless War, Manaburn, Arrowburn, 3/3 layout), but this current one is undeniably deeper. I guess the playerbase enjoys it...

Edit: for the record, I don't think DRG actually needs anything. They're plenty powerful as is.

Seigan could certainly use a boost (magic like BRP said, but it'd also be nice if Seigan itself did something. Even as minor as increasing parry rate).