What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

[Necropolis]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

What weapons would the BRDs be wielding? Dagger is their best weapon at B-. But the only notable WS I can see for BRD is Evisceration. Does it do respectable enough damage to be worth using TP burn style?

Switch to sword, and you suffer a bit of a hit due to C- ranking. BRD could get access to Vorpal Blade... but they'd have to sub PLD, BLU, WAR or DRK.

The low skill rank looks dire to me. The gap between C- and A- at level 75 is 49, which equates to roughly 44 accuracy. So the dual madrigals you mentioned almost makes up for the skill rating difference, but that's it. Those A-/A/A+ weapon wielding DDs still need a lot more +acc on top of that.

The DD bard I know has merited sword, and has a few pieces for sword skill. Merits give him +16 more skill, fortitude torque for another +7, and I think he has another +skill piece, but I've forgotten now.

He off-hands a Blau and main hand a sword (forgotten that now too) and has a bit of the sky abj. gear for WS and such. His numbers are rather impressive. Here's a link to a parse of him... http://q13.net/up/files/06-06-2007.html

Clobont: Ninja
Noodlebrain: Bard
Soulavenger: Bard
Sweetcookie: Red Mage

Can't recall what these three were, but I know they were a war, drg and thf
Laciant:
Kinson:
Mikan:

They were well gear, but not top notch. And Clobont wasn't eatting food because of coli of course.

But notice Noodles's accuracy, that is eatting sushi and dual wielding dagger/sword and dagger/dagger throughout the party.

[Malacite]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

If you're chaining colibri then yes, the dagger is worth it (using Joyeuse in off hand) for the 25% piercing bonus.


I think the biggest thing that everyone's forgetting is that this MMO in particular has a huge focus on community, and as such excluding jobs for whatever reason and generally leaving people to have to solo their EXP goes against the core principals of the game.

Just because some jobs can solo, doesn't mean they necessarily should have to. Not inviting a particular job just because they can solo (even if the solo exp is better as is the case with BLM at certain stages of the game) just isn't right.

Yeah, some of this mess is our own fault, but it's SE who sets the rules for us to play by, and their responsibility to enforce it.

[Necropolis]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I think the biggest thing that everyone's forgetting is that this MMO in particular has a huge focus on community, and as such excluding jobs for whatever reason and generally leaving people to have to solo their EXP goes against the core principals of the game.

Just because some jobs can solo, doesn't mean they necessarily should have to. Not inviting a particular job just because they can solo (even if the solo exp is better as is the case with BLM at certain stages of the game) just isn't right.

Yeah, some of this mess is our own fault, but it's SE who sets the rules for us to play by, and their responsibility to enforce it.

I really couldn't agree more Malacite. Some people choose blm or bst because they like to solo or it fits best with thier limited play time. Or just to prove they can.

However, I'd like to see adjustments where having a job like bst or blm wouldn't hinder a party. I've partied with blm, bst and other "last pick" jobs at varying levels and enjoy it. but it really isn't effective. I think my main concern is that if they adjusted those jobs to be more party-friendly (by making them more powerful/useful or however they do it) is that they'd have to adjust thier soloing capabilities so they arn't over powered in that sense.

Not to say SE would do this, but I'm leary of changes to a job I leveled personally for the solo capability. Well, I suppose we'll see how they adjust these jobs/party dynamics. We're still waiting on a bst update to make them party friendly, lets see how much they screw that up...err..I mean how they fix it.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

However, I'd like to see adjustments where having a job like bst or blm wouldn't hinder a party. I've partied with blm, bst and other "last pick" jobs at varying levels and enjoy it. but it really isn't effective. I think my main concern is that if they adjusted those jobs to be more party-friendly (by making them more powerful/useful or however they do it) is that they'd have to adjust thier soloing capabilities so they arn't over powered in that sense.

Any BST that hinders a party is doing so on their own power, and not because of any limitations of the job. A BST who is geared well for DD can compete with other melee DD jobs. A BST who isn't geared well for DD (showing up in traditional +CHR stuff used for soloing) isn't going to hinder a party any more than any other poorly geared DD job.

[Necropolis]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Any BST that hinders a party is doing so on their own power, and not because of any limitations of the job. A BST who is geared well for DD can compete with other melee DD jobs. A BST who isn't geared well for DD (showing up in traditional +CHR stuff used for soloing) isn't going to hinder a party any more than any other poorly geared DD job.

Yes, of course, I meant more that they were more like a war-lite in thier damage abilities. I've seen impressive number from a bst, but he was well geared for it. I'll admit I don't know what a typical, run of the mill, average gear bst is capable of.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

the primary uses for haste in a merit style party aren't in fact faster TP - so samurai roll (while sexy as hell for just about every job *but* the samurai in the party) doesn't really subsitute.. the primary uses are faster hits for more dot (not weaponskills, which while nice are a small fraction of total damage for most jobs) and lower recast times on utsusemi.

double attack is also slightly less effective than haste, in terms of dot - +15% double attack, stacked on 15% double attack, results in ~130swings instead of ~115 swings in the same time, so a dot gain of ~13% (1.3 / 1.15 )

a haste gain of 15% stacked on 15% haste, results in ~21% dot gain (1 - .85) / (1 - .75) and ~142 swings instead of ~117 swings in the same time.

so if I was ever forced to choose one or the other (5% double attack vs. 5% haste) I'd pick the haste every time, assuming my other modifiers were equivalent.

Here are the variables for Fighter's Roll and Samurai Roll. I've already had enough nerding up for one day.

The point is Fighters + Samurai Roll leads to faster TP build for more weapons skills, thus more damage. TP gain, TP burn.... hmmm. Let's think about that for a moment, kids.

If we were talking about DRK in the mix, I'd certainly reconsider the rolls in favor of the bonus they'd give for Chaos Roll. But if there's no DRK and the kill speed is under 40 seconds without Chaos already, there's no need to roll Chaos.

That aside, SE could avoid the whole ugly issue of nerfing Utsusemi and changing mob levels by simply nerfing Haste. There's simply too much of it going around. Lower where it caps it and lower it in proportion to all jobs that currently exploit it and people will form new tactics, and the gap between manaburn, TP burn, soloing and balanced PTs gets a bit closer. This way people can keep thier utsusemi, the 10k EXP per hour and other jobs get some ground back.

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Here are the variables for Fighter's Roll and Samurai Roll. I've already had enough nerding up for one day.
The point is Fighters + Samurai Roll leads to faster TP build for more weapons skills, thus more damage. TP gain, TP burn.... hmmm. Let's think about that for a moment, kids.

I guess high school math is nerding up now? heh.

"TP burns" are hall marked by fast attack speed, a lack of a traditional tank, and using your -best- weaponskill as often as you have TP. if it were really just about doing skillchains as fast as humanly possible, the parties would be sam sam sam sam rdm brd and not the mix of heavy DD and back line you get today. most melee do much more damage in the TP phase (the period maximized by haste, accuracy, and attack) than they do in the WS phase.


without getting into all the math you seem so keen on avoiding: does samurai roll improve total damage? yes. does it improve it much? not really - unless it shaves an attack round off (which depending on the roll, the store TP on the DD, and the delay of the weapon it may, or may not) it doesn't make any significant difference since going at 100 or 108 tp is negligible.

and I already demonstrated why Fighter's roll isn't as good as haste for dot (needing either a lucky or an 11 assuming best case conditions for fighters roll vs. worst case for haste, to pull ahead in dot gains, and a 10, lucky, or 11 to break even) in realistic situations (where most melee have 5-23% haste, and 10-23% double attack before cor rolls) it's not even close.

do they both boost the amount of damage your melee do? yes. are they both better than other rolls a cor could use? situational (which is good, cor has alot of very good songs)

does this make them equivalent to haste? for a non x/nin DD - sure, more or less.

That aside, SE could avoid the whole ugly issue of nerfing Utsusemi and changing mob levels by simply nerfing Haste. There's simply too much of it going around. Lower where it caps it and lower it in proportion to all jobs that currently exploit it and people will form new tactics, and the gap between manaburn, TP burn, soloing and balanced PTs gets a bit closer. This way people can keep thier utsusemi, the 10k EXP per hour and other jobs get some ground back.

Haste is useful for every job, about equally. even mages. and the few jobs that don't benefit from haste particularly, either don't need the help (ranger), or benefit from fast cast, which is available in similar quantities (blackmage) for everyday purposes.

nerfing haste would be an across the board nerf of all jobs in the game, and totally invalidate both major endgame tanks - as well as deal a serious blow to melee strategies in general in situations outside exp.

[Tipsy]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I've been in very affective TP burns with DRGs or DRKs, so it isn't necissarily marked by fast attack speed, but just basically damage out-put. DRG has jumps so it can build TP fairly well for a nice WS on the burned monsters who are usually T-VT at most. And DRKs have Abs-TP, which is around 80TP every 1mins and 30 secs, so they can, without having such a fantastic attack speed hold up well in a TP burn. I mean DoT is great for a TP burn, but, it really isn't the main way they should be built upon.

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I've been in very affective TP burns with DRGs or DRKs, so it isn't necissarily marked by fast attack speed, but just basically damage out-put. DRG has jumps so it can build TP fairly well for a nice WS on the burned monsters who are usually T-VT at most. And DRKs have Abs-TP, which is around 80TP every 1mins and 30 secs, so they can, without having such a fantastic attack speed hold up well in a TP burn. I mean DoT is great for a TP burn, but, it really isn't the main way they should be built upon.

fast attack speed is a relative term, especially when you start using damage ja's like jumps.

I'd bet both were using some amount of haste in addition to relevant job traits

[Tipsy]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

What I ment was, DRG is obviously one of the slower attacking jobs in the game (delay related), but they combat that with their JAs and Wyvern, to become TP-burnable. So not just jobs who attack amilion times per second are the only one who can TP-burn.

And the DRK was strapped, not a single haste, just +attack/acc, the normal setup. Just high WS damage (1.4-1.6k per spinning slash /thf in Caedarva), the EXP was just under 20k an hour.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Stuff

My whole point is, mobs can be killed in less than 40 seconds without Haste and without attack buffs in a melee PT as is. How you get there is potaytoes potahtoes. One BRD could Double Minuet and another could Double Haste a WAR PT and they're pretty much going to get the same killspeed. One swung faster, the other just hit harder.

How you get there is irrelevant, both paths will still lead to 10k+ an hour. What is relevant is mob defense and Utsusemi recast, which is allow to get too low.

nerfing haste would be an across the board nerf of all jobs in the game, and totally invalidate both major endgame tanks - as well as deal a serious blow to melee strategies in general in situations outside exp.

Taking the cap down a little bit would not be catastrophic, nor would it really be that damaging to either tank. It would bring players closer to danger, which is as it should be.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Yes, of course, I meant more that they were more like a war-lite in thier damage abilities. I've seen impressive number from a bst, but he was well geared for it. I'll admit I don't know what a typical, run of the mill, average gear bst is capable of.

I think this is the biggest misconception about BST DD. In reality, it's entirely likely that a BST outputs less than a WAR, yet contributes more damage overall. Why? The pet. A charmed pet is very, very strong. Even an appropriate jug pet contribute greatly to DoT.

That BST isn't well liked in party isn't S-E's fault; the players tend to forget the pet's damage contribution, for whatever the reason.

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

How you get there is irrelevant, both paths will still lead to 10k+ an hour.

except assuming we don't run out of mobs, if I can put together a party that kills in 35 (or 30!) seconds instead of 40 seconds, we'll get -even- more exp. so kill speed maximums do matter.

What is relevant is mob defense and Utsusemi recast, which is allow to get too low. Taking the cap down a little bit would not be catastrophic, nor would it really be that damaging to either tank. It would bring players closer to danger, which is as it should be.

the recast cap is already down several notches (approximately 20% less) from the haste cap. and it would be fairly damaging to both pld/nin and nin/drk since any significant change (as you appear to be proposing here) would heavily nerf the primary hate tools of these two tanks (flash and stun); which was my reason for the comment, not the utsusemi recast change.

not that nerfing utsusemi would have any real effect on the popularity of blackmage in exp, since blackmage was on the way out (partially facilitated by the blackmage community) long before the NA endgame population stopped using blood tanks.

this game -really- isn't as unbalanced as people seem to think. the only job that really needs anything done for it at this point, I think, is probably BST. everything else is mostly wishlists, minor tweaks, or people hoping SE will patch the game in such a way as to force the player community to play in the way that they think the community should play.

[Sevv]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

nerf haste

So now nerfing haste comes up, how bout this -gives cor a haste roll- better?

Ya know what I don't like my war not being able to party buff outside Warcry. Lets nerf all support jobs hell take em out the game since they get better invites?

/sarcasm off

[Sevv]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

So now nerfing haste comes up, how bout this -gives cor a haste roll- better?
Ya know what I don't like my war not being able to party buff outside Warcry. Lets nerf all support jobs hell take em out the game since they get better invites?

/sarcasm off

bah wtf can a mod delete this random double post