What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

[Malacite]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

The efficiency discrepancies aside, it's just not fun soloing all the time. I manged to get my other character's BLM up to 58 before I got fed up of it. It's dull as hell soloing mobs for all your EXP, and I find that mobs in ToAU resist the hell out of magic.

Lesser Colibri would consistently resist me on Blizzard II even with Ice Staff and Wizard's Gloves. That's bull shit. They're weak to ice and I had +25 skill from gear, and yet I saw repeated resists (my other character is a Taru and I was BLM/SMN at the time because we had a PL and a lot of refresh power in the PT so I thought I'd have some fun for once. In retrospect /SMN wasn't a great idea but it was fun for a while)

Generally speaking, ToAU mobs are not BLM-friendly, save for a few choice mobs (Qiqrin, Puddings). I still think it was retarded of SE to have nerfed Chigoe exp off marid the way they did. It wasn't all that broken, and more importantly was cutting PLD and BLM a bit of slack.


What is SE smoking, and where can I get some?


Also, the idea of a 6 BRD PT has crossed my mind. I've always wondered why no one ever tries say BRD/WAR in EXP and gears up for DD. Who says COR has to be the only DD/Support Hybrid? Just buff the mages first real fast, then the melee and get in there!


Now for the sake of minimizing damage, let's say everyone is subbing NIN. Each BRD can hold 2 songs on the PT. Actually, now that I think about it it sucks that SE changed Etudes to single targets. They should create a new set of etudes that have the same bonus as the single targets, but take slightly longer to cast and are full PT buffs. Oh well.


Back to my point, let's try the following;

Minuets II III and IV (I caps at +16 and as such is a waste) for a total of +136 attack (assuming I'm reading ff wiki correctly) and 3/12 songs. Then we add both marches for 20% haste and leaving us at 5/12. Both madrigals (+15 accuracy is still really good so Sword Madrigal just makes the cut) for +43 accuracy and 7/12 songs. You could also tack on Paeon's III IV and V for 20 HP/tic if so desired.

BRD has a D in evasion so Mambo is pretty pointless. Another option would be to pile on Minne's to reduce damage (and perhaps allow for /WAR?) or even tack on that last minuet for another 15 attack.


In theory, it could kick some serious ass with all those buffs.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

A good PUP will work anywhere RNG does... maybe anywhere BLMs are especially good, but I don't know a lot about that.

Anyway, BLMs and SMNs... and other tactics... are held by the facts I mentioned in the quote on the previous page. SCs need to be more potent and accurate, SCs need to give benefit to MP endurance, and monsters need to be adjusted or created for that type of play.

[Necropolis]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Fun is a subjective word. I find soloing to be fun at times. I also like party play too. Depends on my mood and my party memebers. Blms can and do get invites in the 50-60s but they can be scare. But you can always make your own party. Leveling whm I had quiet a few blms start parties that I joined, and it was overall enjoyable. I even merit from time to time with blms in the LS off colibri. Just have to be quick on the stuns.

Blm soling/manaburn can be effcient. It can be more efficient than a mediocre TP burn party. There are 18 jobs in FFXI. You are not going to find a balance that will satisfy 18 groups of people ever. Really, should a job that's capable of soloing IT++++ mobs easily and chain them beable to take advantage of TP burns too? I don't see monks soloing Dahaks in Mount Z. I don't expect to see Blms soloing greater colibri (effeciently).

Yea,Mal, the colibri aren't particularly friendly to blms, but thats hardly all of ToAU. The majority of mob types added in ToAU I think are more than friendly to BLMs. You don't see TP or traditional parties exping off Marids, or Prince Wamoura, or Puddings, or anything of the like.

I don't think anyone exps off those damn overgrown rose bushes, mnk mobs just suck period. Spiders I think are more for the bst to use than exp normally. Blm have never been too friendly with Beastman mobs, so mamool etcetera are out.

But for mobs that melee exp off of, they got Mamool, imps (which blm can play with too), flys (yuck), skoffins (one shotting galka mnks), puks (ha, it subs nin too), birds (the new crabs), spiders, tigers et cetera.

Blm got puddings, qiqrin, dahak, wamoura larva chioges, marids. No melee wants to touch these unless it's a blu learning spells. All of them are fast easy eap with maybe the exception of Marids and Dahaks being the tougher mobs.

If you don't enjoy soloing, why not try duoing or a manaburn? Duo is fun, enjoyable and twice as effiecent as soloing.

And to Legal. Yea, your ideas hold merit, but I see it flaws. A war, mnk, bard, or any good TP burning party know that they can make very good exp doing minimal work. You mobs are going to require cooperation, teamwork and timing. And I think they are going to require the jobs that are invited to melee. You'd have to create a party out of lighter DDs because all the heavy ones are going to be with the bards at nyzul. And I don't blame them. I save the thinking for when I'm doing somthing impoitant, not exp. But who knows, maybe we'll see more new mobs of this type once WotG comes out or something.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

But who knows, maybe we'll see more new mobs of this type once WotG comes out or something.

Hmm. Wild speculation, but perhaps S-E would want to break WS Spam parties in ToAU area and move them to Divine Soldiers of Altana (WotG)? XD

"If you want your fast exp, buy expansion!"

* * *

For the record

I'm not out to eliminate WS Spam parties. However, I'd like to see closer parity between WS Spam and SC+MB parties, and believe that making SC+MB more damaging alone would not address the issue adequately.

I'm for minor nerfs to WS Spam style, not de-clawing it entirely; it would be totally fine if the average WS Spam party makes 15% more exp/hour than the average SC+MB party at the same level. (Using a decent SC; not something silly like Shining Strike -> Gale Axe.) It's OK--even good--if WS Spam is more effective, but not to the point where majority of melee players automatically want to avoid SC+MB.

And, no, totally not serious about break WS Spam anywhere, ToAU included. So, don't kill me. >_>;

[Necropolis]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Hmm. Wild speculation, but perhaps S-E would want to break WS Spam parties in ToAU area and move them to Divine Soldiers of Altana (WotG)? XD

"If you want your fast exp, buy expansion!"

* * *

For the record

I'm not out to eliminate WS Spam parties. However, I'd like to see closer parity between WS Spam and SC+MB parties, and believe that making SC+MB more damaging alone would not address the issue adequately.

I'm for minor nerfs to WS Spam style, not de-clawing it entirely; it would be totally fine if the average WS Spam party makes 15% more exp/hour than the average SC+MB party at the same level. (Using a decent SC; not something silly like Shining Strike -> Gale Axe.) It's OK--even good--if WS Spam is more effective, but not to the point where majority of melee players automatically want to avoid SC+MB.

And, no, totally not serious about break WS Spam anywhere, ToAU included. So, don't kill me. >_>;

It would make sense to me that a WS used in a Skill chain would be more effective than one that is without. Same with nukes, a free nuke is less than a MB. But with nukes, the damage bonus (typically) is not OMGWTF we gotta MB! I wouldn't mind seeing SC getting a boost to make it like MBs (ws less resisted more damage for the chain) but not to a point that it makes free spamming weaponskills pointless.

I do believe we could find a balance between the two, but it's really up to the players as to if they will or will not SC+MB

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Considering THF, DRK, DRG, RNG, and SAM are the best SCers in the game, it isn't a big deal really if WAR, NIN, BRD, and MNK don't join in(though some WARs I know personally would love to give GAxes a test).

Another BIG thing that needs to be changed is the strength of single/double hit WSes vs multi-hit. This is probably the second biggest or even biggest reason why SCs died. It's much better to spam a multi-hit WS if you know you are going to be hitting all the hits 50%+ of the time. That pretty much completely screws over the idea of trying to use other WSes for a good SC.

[Akashimo]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Reason why they're the best is when they end a lvl 3 SC. Any of them worth their merits who has tp in a TP-Burn and sees a light/dark they can close can easily do it. Last time i went to cap off exp on thf(after getting down to 22 into level due to dynamis >_>; ) had a party of sam, war, pld, whm, brd, thf and mnk. Obviously, either hope the war was GAing to close Steel Cyclone or close the Sam's Gekko/Kasha. No such luck on wars. >_>; Even though most I've seen can do more with cyclone than with dual axes, even with nin subbed. A 1k+(if i land most of my hits with a 13-17% tp return for Evis or 9-11% for Shark Bite) can easily take out the mob with the SC considering the timing when the sam used Gekko.

Later we gotten a blm after the brd left, and lets say he caught on to me closing the sam's sc which added to some fast kills, espically those high def/eva mamoo jas.

Though I agree, single/doube vs multi hit does need to be fixed >_>; But, how would they fix it? Change modifiers? Accuarcy? New items for single/double to compare greatly against multihitters?

[Malacite]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Yea,Mal, the colibri aren't particularly friendly to blms, but thats hardly all of ToAU. The majority of mob types added in ToAU I think are more than friendly to BLMs. You don't see TP or traditional parties exping off Marids, or Prince Wamoura, or Puddings, or anything of the like.

In all seriousness, I've PTed with a couple of BLM's in TP burns and they still saw fairly high resists. I think the biggest issue lies in the EXP from IT mobs and skill chain damage.

As said by previous posters, SC's are resisted entirely too often. I also think the the damage they do should be re-calculated as well as the resist rates. This would be fairly broken by 30 once THF get TA, but if a skillchain's damage did 150% damage rather than 50% from the first chain and going up from there, I bet you'd see a lot more people chaining.


Yes, this would also help TP burns but there's nothing wrong with that. The goal is to be able to allow a BLM or SMN the opportunity to finish off an otherwise too-powerful mob in 1 massive blast.


Another idea in addition to this would be to let the lv 70 Blood Pacts create skill chains (Light and Darkness included preferably)

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

You seem to be missing the fact that BLMs are shunned for the core EXP levels of the game, then they are grovelled before for BC/KS and HNM.

groveled? I can't remember the last time I did anything other than Divine Might with more than 1 blackmage per other job mix involved (and DM was only a burn because it was something my linkshell felt like trying; most of the group had already beaten it on other jobs)

Do not point at manaburn PTs, do not point to soloing off pet mobs until you have soloed several levels 50+. Soloing EXP is not like a burn PT's EXP, not even close. BST mob pets do dry up and then you eventually have solo the real deal elsewhere, its there that 7k an hour you got off BST mob pets fades away.

go do qiqirn, go trio puddings, go do elementals in sky, go do wamoura princes. hell, kill king apkallus - a mob no melee will be able to exp on ever.

BST mobs aren't even the best exp you can get as a blackmage, they're just the most reliable source of 5 minute mobs prior to AU areas.

and why can't I point at manaburn pt's? it's a completely viable six person setup and there's at least three different zones you can find a camp in.. as others have said it can hit 15k/hr just fine. until you start doing retarded things with double bard triple ridill parties you'll be hard pressed to exceed (or sometimes even meet) that in a typical melee party.

I've done solo, balanced and burn. There is a massive gap between the first two and the latter.

prior to the 'innovation' of ranger arrow burns and the 'innovation' of fighting T-VT mobs without a full tank and no traditional skillchain, this statement was still true. (just about blm blm blm blm rdm brd) why do you think they call them "burn" parties? all melee based fast kill parties have done is provide another subset of jobs a way to get double digit thousands exp an hour too. (the real losers are jobs that don't fit in any of the fast kill situations, but fortunately for all of us, melee based parties are much more inclusive than a traditional manaburn)

Or hell, why not tell that RDM to go solo, he can do it. If you can find it in your heart to say to BLM "at least you can solo," why can't you say it to RDM? You can claim that Refresh, Dispel and Haste are things a PT needs, but that doesn't make it true. Fast EXP per hour can happen without all three if you know how to play it right.

check my 75 job. how often am I in the same party as a redmage for merit? almost never.

and haste is something a party needs. fortunately all healing and support role jobs except for one (corsair) have access to haste.

There are levels before 74. Wake up.
Show me a BLM invited to fight preferred mobs like colibri in the late 50s and early 60s.

you mean the level range when a blackmage *can* solo exp on pets for 7k+/hr and not have to deal with a subpar replacement gimping you down to 3.5k/hr?

and exp in general in the 50's is full of death. if I had to choose between risking my butt to a potentially poor tank and an inattentive healer or one shotting bats in newton movalopolos at 58, I'd pick the bats every time.

or I'd grab a buddy and we'd go do chigoe in aydeewa subterrane if I was looking to socialize.

I soloed from level 41 blm to 75 in 3 weeks. Thats a lot faster than most melees leevl. Hell, even bard can take longer than three weeks depending on thie times that they play. Granted, I did have two weeks off from work, and played a fair sum during that time. But over all I think the exp is more effecient solo than parties.

could you PM me with the exact camps/paths you took? I've been looking to get blackmage to 75 soon and a 3 week plan sounds great (although to be realistic I probably will take closer to 3 months given my play schedule lol)

Get the exceptional melees and you can even break 40k/hr.

where are there enough mobs to break 40k/hr? (unless you mean a double bard party who has mamool ja staging point to themselves, I just don't see where you could find enough things to kill to get these kinds of numbers) I'm not denying it isn't theoretically possible (like the chain#2000+ elementals for something like 36k/hr used to be back in sea) but I'd like to know whether this was hyperbole or not, haha.

Though I agree, single/doube vs multi hit does need to be fixed >_>; But, how would they fix it? Change modifiers? Accuarcy? New items for single/double to compare greatly against multihitters?

the primary misbalance between single and multihit weaponskills has to do with how the fTP modifiers are applied (they apply only to the first hit.) and mostly just with rampage.

what this means is, if you double attack on Tachi: Gekko you get one hit at 1.5fTP and a second hit at 1.0fTP

it also means that rampage at 100TP is: 0.5 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0 with multiple double attack chances, all at 1.0.

the best way to rebalance single/multi weaponskills would be to apply the fTP to -all- hits in a weaponskill, including proc'd double attacks.

of course, fixing it at this point that would have alot of warriors screaming foul. (and mostly just warriors; ninja and monk multihits are both 1.0 fTP already, thief actually benefits on Dancing Edge, and penta thrust would suffer a minor penalty at 100TP and a huge boost at 300TP so I doubt dragoons would complain. Guillotine suffers slightly too, but less than rampage, and I can't really remember the last time I had a dark actually -happy- about dual axe and drk/nin)

[Necropolis]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

where are there enough mobs to break 40k/hr? (unless you mean a double bard party who has mamool ja staging point to themselves, I just don't see where you could find enough things to kill to get these kinds of numbers) I'm not denying it isn't theoretically possible (like the chain#2000+ elementals for something like 36k/hr used to be back in sea) but I'd like to know whether this was hyperbole or not, haha.

It's certainly rare, but if you can catch a slow day at camps and get them to yourself it's possible. I don't really think it's possible with a pickup party unless you're extremly lucky. When I need a few merits I try to grab a kraken club drk I know, 2 ridel wars, 2 bards and myself (whm).

It's really not fun, from a mage point of view, but it's effective. We typically try for nyzul island - thickets area, but we've gotten close in Mamook, or the Thickets staging point if it's deserted. Mire I suppose is possible, but amnesia and aoe silence usually become a problem after long enough.

The bards can't be the second rate bards that level just for meripo. They need good bards. The kind that can tell you what mob will mob where next. The kind that change out to double madrigal instead of double march for thf mobs, those type bards. Not the oh, I pull, sleep, sing, pull. Have to have a strategy, and the bards are really key in the high chains.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I say give a 30-50% bonus to all secondary modifiers when a WS ends a SC.

Also boost TP modifiers of single/double hit weapons after level 50 or 55(let completing Genkei 1 or 2 activate it, for fun's sake) are boosted in a way that they can compared to multi-hit WSes of 4 to 6 hits. Giving every WS a 1 or .5 TP increase at 100% would do this quite well.

Let the TP modifier of all WSes increase. Many ones, like Stun WS or WSes that inflict poison or etc stay at 1.0. Change it so it goes 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0.

[Malacite]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Making magical WS do decent damage would be a welcome change too, especially since some of them offer great SC options but do such crappy damage that they're not worth it such as Raiden Trust or Tachi Goten/Hobaku (stun WS I know but still)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

check my 75 job. how often am I in the same party as a redmage for merit? almost never.

and haste is something a party needs. fortunately all healing and support role jobs except for one (corsair) have access to haste.

Some of my better merit PTs have had niether a RDM or BRD in them, main healer was always WHM. Why you bring WHM up? Hell if I know, I was making a point that there's one job that can solo that no one ever says to go solo, yet as a BLM and BST I've been told I should be soloing just because I can. It's pretty insulting to be told that while you're seeking while soloing.

I've partied maybe 3 levels of my BST career so far, 4 of BLU. If anything he neccessity of solo lies with BLU for learning magic. No problem with that. And I don't really mind soloing in general, but it gets a little boring sometimes and you want a change of pace. And its not always easy to get a PT and not everyone as the same level of patience in building one. I guess that's my way of saying I can most certainly lead a PT, I just have a low tolerance for followers. You shouldn't shut your brain off as soon as someone invites you.

As for COR, no we don't have a haste, but we have a means of emulating melee haste to a degree, just not any kind of means to lower spell recasts. Fighter's Roll for the extra hits and Samurai Roll for the extra TP per hit. The goal of haste for melee is to hit more often to gain TP more quickly, after all. Its not something I always do, but its an option.

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Some of my better merit PTs have had niether a RDM or BRD in them, main healer was always WHM. Why you bring WHM up? Hell if I know, I was making a point that there's one job that can solo that no one ever says to go solo, yet as a BLM and BST I've been told I should be soloing just because I can. It's pretty insulting to be told that while you're seeking while soloing.

ah, yeah. I brought up my job because you referenced the possibility of making the claim that redmage traits are critical to a party (which as you state here, isn't something you believe either) I referenced my 75 job to show that I was used to not exping with redmages, either.

As for COR, no we don't have a haste, but we have a means of emulating melee haste to a degree, just not any kind of means to lower spell recasts. Fighter's Roll for the extra hits and Samurai Roll for the extra TP per hit. The goal of haste for melee is to hit more often to gain TP more quickly, after all. Its not something I always do, but its an option.

I hadn't meant to seem like I was disparaging cor (I actually prefer cor over a second bard if the choice comes up; and would happily take a cor instead of a first bard depending on other job mixes) - I actually considered mentioning fighter's roll, but there's a couple key differences (and a couple ways that haste changes in utility when moving from an SC+MB to a merit style party)

the primary uses for haste in a merit style party aren't in fact faster TP - so samurai roll (while sexy as hell for just about every job *but* the samurai in the party) doesn't really subsitute.. the primary uses are faster hits for more dot (not weaponskills, which while nice are a small fraction of total damage for most jobs) and lower recast times on utsusemi.

double attack is also slightly less effective than haste, in terms of dot - +15% double attack, stacked on 15% double attack, results in ~130swings instead of ~115 swings in the same time, so a dot gain of ~13% (1.3 / 1.15 )

a haste gain of 15% stacked on 15% haste, results in ~21% dot gain (1 - .85) / (1 - .75) and ~142 swings instead of ~117 swings in the same time.

so if I was ever forced to choose one or the other (5% double attack vs. 5% haste) I'd pick the haste every time, assuming my other modifiers were equivalent.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Also, the idea of a 6 BRD PT has crossed my mind. I've always wondered why no one ever tries say BRD/WAR in EXP and gears up for DD. Who says COR has to be the only DD/Support Hybrid? Just buff the mages first real fast, then the melee and get in there!


Now for the sake of minimizing damage, let's say everyone is subbing NIN. Each BRD can hold 2 songs on the PT. Actually, now that I think about it it sucks that SE changed Etudes to single targets. They should create a new set of etudes that have the same bonus as the single targets, but take slightly longer to cast and are full PT buffs. Oh well.


Back to my point, let's try the following;

Minuets II III and IV (I caps at +16 and as such is a waste) for a total of +136 attack (assuming I'm reading ff wiki correctly) and 3/12 songs. Then we add both marches for 20% haste and leaving us at 5/12. Both madrigals (+15 accuracy is still really good so Sword Madrigal just makes the cut) for +43 accuracy and 7/12 songs. You could also tack on Paeon's III IV and V for 20 HP/tic if so desired.

BRD has a D in evasion so Mambo is pretty pointless. Another option would be to pile on Minne's to reduce damage (and perhaps allow for /WAR?) or even tack on that last minuet for another 15 attack.


In theory, it could kick some serious ass with all those buffs.

What weapons would the BRDs be wielding? Dagger is their best weapon at B-. But the only notable WS I can see for BRD is Evisceration. Does it do respectable enough damage to be worth using TP burn style?

Switch to sword, and you suffer a bit of a hit due to C- ranking. BRD could get access to Vorpal Blade... but they'd have to sub PLD, BLU, WAR or DRK.

The low skill rank looks dire to me. The gap between C- and A- at level 75 is 49, which equates to roughly 44 accuracy. So the dual madrigals you mentioned almost makes up for the skill rating difference, but that's it. Those A-/A/A+ weapon wielding DDs still need a lot more +acc on top of that.