What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

[Neomage]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I solod BLM from 51-63 which I am currently. You didn't mention what level your BLM is but there are solo guides all over. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Black_M..._by_Lion_heart Here is a address to one in fact. I solod 60k exp in two days in Bibiki Bay. May even want to try BLM burn parties or even dou with someone. My exp/hr solo is so amazing and fast that I actually turn down party invites.

If you can keep that up to and past 70, pray tell me what your fighting. I've been stuck at 71 for 5 months now and no mater what I try to solo/make a party/quest for EXP scrolls/whatever, I cannot get out. It's precisely the reason my content I.D.s are deactivated.

[nazlfrag]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I get a feeling that Square set up the game so that we were meant to be chaining T-VTs all along from 10-75. Targeting ITs seems to be a waste of time and mana if you can kill two VTs with the same effort. Still, I guess people are more thrilled by big numbers than consistency and targeting ITs won't dissapear.

Omgwtfbbq seems to have the best solution to TP-burn issues with PLD and BLM - adjust the mobs to give xp relative to their actual difficulty - EM or DC instead of T-VT. This won't shut down TP-burns totally, it'll just even the balance in regards to a regular tanking+skillchaining party.

All that said, I'm only lvl 65 so take my post with a healthy dose of salt.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Omgwtfbbq seems to have the best solution to TP-burn issues with PLD and BLM - adjust the mobs to give xp relative to their actual difficulty - EM or DC instead of T-VT. This won't shut down TP-burns totally, it'll just even the balance in regards to a regular tanking+skillchaining party.

Or how about adjusting it so ITs are worth it and add monsters with built exp bonuses and weakness to SC+MB and PLD tanking.

That way, you don't upset your userbase.

If you can keep that up to and past 70, pray tell me what your fighting. I've been stuck at 71 for 5 months now and no mater what I try to solo/make a party/quest for EXP scrolls/whatever, I cannot get out. It's precisely the reason my content I.D.s are deactivated.

You aren't using your brain for this one, kiddo:

Find a monster that is VT or IT at that level range.

Make sure is not immune or resistant to Gravity, Sleep, and perhaps Bind.

???

Profit.

Here is an example:

Snipper/Mamook Crab should be good...

King Buffalo is probably too high for you atm, but you can look into it once you level up some(72-73).

Brei in Mamook are probably your best bet.

[Necropolis]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Even if they added tougher mobs that gave more exp, I think we'd still see them be TP burned,

When I'm bored, I go watch king camps just as something to do. Yesterday I saw Fafnir burned by 12 people in about 6 minutes. Now I'm sure thier gear is a bit higher quality than a typical war, nin or mnk, but it's like that at almost every HNM. Throw enough bards into a party and it won't matter that the war is wearing NQ everything and not eatting food.

I don't see a way to make a mob that you could exp on that couldn't just be TP burned. Flys in mire have a nasty AoE TP move, yet they get burned. Mamools have higher def, can hit through shadows, and the thfs are a pain, but can be burned. Skoffins have that nasty AoE dispel, paralyze, silence and then fang rush but are still burned. Trolls in Mount Zayloam have high HP and def but are still burned. Hell, I've even seen Wivres burned if they run out of birds at nyzul colibri camp.

All in all, I don't think that yiu can design a mob that will be appealable to a typical party, yet not be burnable. Fre exceptions are the mobs that blm can solo or manaburn. I certainly don't think burn pasrties should be nerfed. How may year did people think 8k/hr was good exp? How many would just quit if you suddenly took the 30k/hr parties away from them?

Most jobs can fit in a burn party if they are geared for it. sure, wars,mnks, and bards will still get faster invites; but I've burned with drgs, thfs, plds, bsts. drks and sams and have made just as good exp. The main jobs left out of burn are smn, pup and blm. All of which can and do solo a lot of thier exp. I would much rather see a base exp increase for mobs killed as solo or duo. There already is, kind of. Some mobs I kill on blm give 300 base exp, there just needs to be more mobs of this nature for the soloing class and perhaps a bigger bonus to exp chains while solo/duo/trio-ing.

[Tipsy]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

There's no way to get rid of burn parties without having the 90% of people who do it leave the game. Use your noggin. I'm sure Square Enix is content with having a few people who do have a problem have their problem, because, it's no where near the sheer number of people who don't. Maybe they'll throw the jobs that arn't burnable a few bones, but, they sure as hell arn't going to do anything about it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

There's no way to get rid of burn parties without having the 90% of people who do it leave the game.

No, they'd just find another way. There would be new jobs favored and trends would shift to the new way and the new goldenboy jobs for it.

When people have to level WAR or BRD to merit thier THF or BLM, I'd say there's something very wrong with the game. And people do, so there is. Not everyone gets to have super HNMLS merit PTs.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

You can make monsters that are anti-burn party.

I'm just going to quote this:

Long post inc

SE needs to add monsters that are IT++, not just IT(borderline VT). They need to grant way over 200 exp a kill for them to even compare to rapid killing of the current situation. Finally, they need a lot of unique traits to balance them being weaker than their level without being meleeburn pray. The exp doesn't have be entirely based on level, giving monsters an exp bonus (like Hippogryphs, Wyverns, and Rams have) can make it easier.

Let's make up a monster here.

First let's compare exp gain. These estimates are very, very rough and shouldn't be held by any standard.

Group 1: Tank DD DD Healer Support BLM(BLU or SMN might work) + DD/BLM/orSupport. Uses SC+MB. (Might be best if one DD was a SAM)

Group 2: DD DD DD DD Support Support. Uses Meleeburn.

Both of these groups are average / borderline well-geared. No BB MNKs or Ridils.

We won't factor in exp chain rewards, but note: They will probably be in the favor of Group 1 if they can hit Chain 5. Group II will be more consistent with their chains however(probably having a constant Chain 5 bonus).

Group 2 kills a monster that gives 100 base exp every 30 seconds. In 10 minutes, that's 2000 exp or 20 monsters. (that's 12k an hour, without factoring Chain Bonuses)

Group 1 kills a monster that gives 300 base exp. That means to keep up, they need to kill around 6 and half monsters in 10 minutes for 1980 exp. That is more than 2 monsters per 2 minutes, meaning they can hold a Chain 5 (but it might be a bit close). (that's 11.8k an hour, without factoring Chain Bonuses, with would be a lot of the exp gain).

It seems Group II would be able to keep up with Group I, maybe even surpass them with Chain bonuses added in... so 300 exp is perfect.

Now the monster would have be different than normal. It would need some unique traits:

1) Prevents the current hate target from being an effective DD. This can be done with a simple Defense bonus against monsters facing them or making the monster very hard to tank with shadows but effective with VIT/Def/Shield. There has been be an advantage to holding it still.

2) A lot of HP. And MP. It would need to be Aspir-able for BLMs. Maybe even weak to Aspir.

3) A weakness to SC and MB to counter it's large HP.

4) This something almost every monster needs: not have super annoying AoEs, buffs, or debuffs.

5) Have a camp with at least 5 or 6 pops on a 5-minute timer.

6) The camp must be easy to handle. Either they don't link or they are easy to pull. If the latter, they shouldn't be TOO hard to sleep.


#3 is most interesting and probably most important. We saw this with Qutrub in a way. However, they weren't enough to bring back the style... this was probably due to other factors that they missed from above...

Is there a monster, in FFXI right now, that SE could modify to fit the SC set up perfectly? Yes, the Wivre.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Category:Wivre

They have #1, 5, and 6 down perfectly... with frontal Cone AoE and a Defense bonus from the front. Their camp is awesome, couldn't be better really. They do not turn if hate is changed, simply begin to attack with their tail.

#2 is sort of fulfilled as they have very high HP. I don't know their job type... but they sound PLD, so they might be Aspir-able. They have very high Defense, but very low Evasion(ITs conning with low evasion with small effort).

Their WSes are mixed: They have a Berserk/Haste effect(very strong haste, like 100%), a SEVERE AoE Attack Down effect(ruins them really), and spike-flail type move. They also have a Defense up ability that greatly increases the defense in their front and back.

The biggest problem is the AoE Attack Down. There should be a way to prevent that. I think the best way would be: It only uses it if hate changes too fast. Like if a PLD or NIN lost hate for a couple seconds, then got it back, the thing wouldn't use it. However, if a meleeburn tried to make it bounce around everywhere, they would get nailed with it.

Really, that would be enough, all you need to do is work on making SCs worthwhile. A simple boost could do this: While Weapon Skills receive no damage bonus, Skillchain Damage and spells that are MB'd receive a HUGE bonus and are never resisted. Let's say a flat 50% bonus on SC damage(and since it's never getting resisted... that's the WS damage * 1.5 more damage) and an additional 50% Bonus on MB'd spells... which is 80% without a BLM stacking MB+ gear on.

So let's see: Let's say the set up is BLU and SAM and BLM. They are going to do Light.

Don't bust me on this, but let's say BLU uses Savage Blade, for the fact it's Fragmentation. SAM will use Tachi: Kasha. The BLM, with three Merits in Burst II will use that. BLU will MB with Mind Blast. Let's say the BLM lacks Relic Gloves and Static Earring.

Let's say the BLU does 500 Damage and the SAM does 1200 Damage. The SC will do 1800 Damage and the BLM would hit around 1300 or 1400 damage without the MB bonus(depending on how well geared he was), with the bonus of 89%, he does 2646 Damage. I'm not sure how much mind Blast does usually, but I'm going to say maybe 400 Damage? If that's that 800 Damage.

500 + 800 + 1200 + 1800 + 2646 = 5146 Damage. I don't think Wivre have that much more than that... I could imagine physical attacks to build TP covering the difference.

Sorry about the really random numbers, I haven't been in an lvl 75 exp party in roughly a year, let alone one with a BLU.

The last change is... if they are not "PLD" tyoe mobs already, make them that, so BLM(and DRK and /BLM) can Aspir.



Another thing they could do for SCs, which would help A LOT for jobs with magic that they don't use (DRK, PLD, even WHM) and a job like SMN, is add a Conserve MP effect to Magic Bursting.

Something 100%. Conserve MP saves you by making you pay 15/16 to 8/16(1/2) MP cost. This bonus would need to be 8/16 to 4/16, that's 1/2 to 1/4 MP cost.

I would restrict this bonus to SC Levels 2 and higher, just to be on the safe side.

This would have a HUGE effect on SMN using Magical BPs in parties... hell, it might even let SMNs who are not curing let their Avatar build TP.

For BLMs, it lets them MB AM II magic without fear of killing their reserves. I'm not sure how many of you are aware, but Thunder IV is much better than Burst II(or any AM) by a good ratio. Burst II is 2.47~ Damage per MP and Thunder IV is around 3.14~ I think. However, AM II was meant to be MB'd (just look at those merit upgrades). The same could be said for the Merit SMN BPs, in fact, the exact same thing could be said when comparing their Physical BPs.

With this change, a BLM can MB a AM II for between 143.5 MP and 71.75 MP. That's a Stone IV and Blizzard II.

If that doesn't bring back SCs, nothing will. And it wouldn't be broken if compared to the current meleeburn tactic. It would turn BLM to "lol downtime" to "I have to learn to MB now?".

Let me tell you, it would do a lot for BLM for things like Assaults and small group things. I don't see it having too much of an effect on BLM for the big things outside something like Kirin(where you go all out)... because you don't only stop and rest for MP, you have to keep your hate in check. Really, this only helps LSes that gimp themselves by not accepting some zerg tactics.

Now this would have an even bigger effect on SMN, who would feel the boost with their tier II/IV nukes and magical BPs. I wouldn't be surprised if SMN could turn into a full out DD if not put into the healer's spot, at least before merit-range. Shiva could use Rush to build TP fast and Blizzard IV would be reduced a good deal. Now if you put some effort into an avatar with a good supporting BP?(Garuda, Titan, Fenrir... especially Fenrir, he's cheap) SMNs won't need to switch out and lose TP.

I can see BLU also benefiting a lot from this, but I don't know a big deal about the job. I do know Magical attacks are not popular in exp due to physicals being more damaging. This would probably fix that.

Things get interesting when you consider a PLD never really uses all his MP in exp parties anymore. Maybe that weak, but hate-grabbing Holy for 50 or 25 MP might be useful sometimes. If the party was built for it, WHMs could have fun with their Banish spells. I doubt a DRK would find much mileage with this, but consider they have a good deal of MAB gear and B Elemental Skill... well, I don't know. RDMs will dig it, that's for sure.


A camp with a monster designed for SC+MB exp at 75 and the exp reduction I named above? I think it would be enough to bring back SCs to at least a decent popularity.

And I'm done.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

When people have to level WAR or BRD to merit thier THF or BLM, I'd say there's something very wrong with the game. And people do, so there is. Not everyone gets to have super HNMLS merit PTs.

On the flip side, you "have to" level BLM, RNG, etc to get a desirable spot in many end game activities other than meritting. You said it yourself -- melee are replaceable.

If SE is going to try and balance jobs for this part of end game, they should balance the other aspects of end game as well. Take away the TP burn appeal of WAR and MNK, and what are they left with?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

If SE is going to try and balance jobs for this part of end game, they should balance the other aspects of end game as well.

Melees say this all the time, but they never give an idea of how to accomplish it. Its just a poor justification for the state of EXP PTs right now.

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

that and you *don't* have to level war or bard (or any of the other burnable jobs) to get merit exp on your thf or blm.

1) a good thief (that does dot and not zomgSATAWS) is a fine addition to a traditional burn-style party - hell. you sub ninja by default on this job anyway
2) blackmages can manaburn just fine for 10k+ without any real headache. you don't even need six as long as you have some support (mostly bard|rdm etc)

this stuffs not broken. it really isn't.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

that and you *don't* have to level war or bard (or any of the other burnable jobs) to get merit exp on your thf or blm.

1) a good thief (that does dot and not zomgSATAWS) is a fine addition to a traditional burn-style party - hell. you sub ninja by default on this job anyway
2) blackmages can manaburn just fine for 10k+ without any real headache. you don't even need six as long as you have some support (mostly bard|rdm etc)

this stuffs not broken. it really isn't.

You seem to be missing the fact that BLMs are shunned for the core EXP levels of the game, then they are grovelled before for BC/KS and HNM.

Do not point at manaburn PTs, do not point to soloing off pet mobs until you have soloed several levels 50+. Soloing EXP is not like a burn PT's EXP, not even close. BST mob pets do dry up and then you eventually have solo the real deal elsewhere, its there that 7k an hour you got off BST mob pets fades away.

Ask anyone who solos EXP 50+ and they will tell you it is SLOW and full of death. The only "balance" there is that they get to horde all those seals for themselves, but that is little solace when a newb WAR can go from 50-75 in a couple weeks versus PUP, BLM, BST or w/e taking months longer to get there because they are expected to solo.

Try soloing, not just for a level, or two even, but many. Then get back to me and tell me TP burns aren't broken. I've done solo, balanced and burn. There is a massive gap between the first two and the latter.

Or hell, why not tell that RDM to go solo, he can do it. If you can find it in your heart to say to BLM "at least you can solo," why can't you say it to RDM? You can claim that Refresh, Dispel and Haste are things a PT needs, but that doesn't make it true. Fast EXP per hour can happen without all three if you know how to play it right.

You can try to point to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but when other jobs get to that pot at an exponential rate and PLD or BLM do not, that's a problem.

[Tipsy]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Do not point at manaburn PTs

Why not?

A list of jobs that can burn:
Black Mage - Manaburn (KRT instant Chain 6/7 with a BRD, I've done it quite effectivly at Lv.74.)
Monk - KRT / any TP burn
Red Mage - KRT / Manaburn
Thief - Any typical burn in Caedarva / Mamool
Warrior - TP burn
White Mage - KRT - and maybe a group of WHMs equipped with those clubs and revered mail and other melee gear could do quite well..
Bard - KRT, and TP burn party
Beastmaster - BeastBurn? That's like 12 people/monsters attacking one.. or all fighting 1 each. I've seen a SS of an alliance of Beats burning for high chains
Blue Mage - Can be in a manaburn; a BLU burn even?
Corsair - Manaburn, Meleeburn, really anyburn.
Dark Knight - ToAU area burns mostly... and ulegurand or w/e it's called.
Dragoon - Easily anialate any mob that are TP burned on in Aht Urghan
Ninja - No comment lol
Paladin - Best tank in Caedarva imo for a party (If they're good), and/or equipped right (I leveled my PLD to 74 for 71 in ToAU areas with no problem..)
Puppetmaster - lolpup, I don't know where they fit in..
Ranger - TP burn most ToAU areas (I've had an elvaan RNG spam 2k slugs in Baflau)
Samurai - TP burn easily
Summoner - Summoner Burn, pretty easy.. also can be a healer for a TP burn

And that's about it, the only job I see that may not hold up too well in a burn is PUP, but that's debatable.. if done right I'm sure anything is possible. All jobs pre-burnable levels have the same EXP parties and contribute the same amount..

But again; not so much pup.. but you know what they say,

lolpup

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Why not?

A list of jobs that can burn:
Black Mage - Manaburn (KRT instant Chain 6/7 with a BRD, I've done it quite effectivly at Lv.74.)
Monk - KRT / any TP burn
Red Mage - KRT / Manaburn
Thief - Any typical burn in Caedarva / Mamool
Warrior - TP burn
White Mage - KRT - and maybe a group of WHMs equipped with those clubs and revered mail and other melee gear could do quite well..
Bard - KRT, and TP burn party
Beastmaster - BeastBurn? That's like 12 people/monsters attacking one.. or all fighting 1 each. I've seen a SS of an alliance of Beats burning for high chains
Blue Mage - Can be in a manaburn; a BLU burn even?
Corsair - Manaburn, Meleeburn, really anyburn.
Dark Knight - ToAU area burns mostly... and ulegurand or w/e it's called.
Dragoon - Easily anialate any mob that are TP burned on in Aht Urghan
Ninja - No comment lol
Paladin - Best tank in Caedarva imo for a party (If they're good), and/or equipped right (I leveled my PLD to 74 for 71 in ToAU areas with no problem..)
Puppetmaster - lolpup, I don't know where they fit in..
Ranger - TP burn most ToAU areas (I've had an elvaan RNG spam 2k slugs in Baflau)
Samurai - TP burn easily
Summoner - Summoner Burn, pretty easy.. also can be a healer for a TP burn

And that's about it, the only job I see that may not hold up too well in a burn is PUP, but that's debatable.. if done right I'm sure anything is possible. All jobs pre-burnable levels have the same EXP parties and contribute the same amount..

But again; not so much pup.. but you know what they say,

lolpup

There are levels before 74. Wake up.

Show me a BLM invited to fight preferred mobs like colibri in the late 50s and early 60s.

[Tipsy]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

There are levels before 74. Wake up.
Show me a BLM invited to fight preferred mobs like colibri in the late 50s and early 60s.

I love how you name like the one mob BLM isn't affective against...

...there's more fish in the sea.

I also love how people who can't form their own parties whine about how life is so unfair.

They all need to 'Wake up.'

[Necropolis]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

You seem to be missing the fact that BLMs are shunned for the core EXP levels of the game, then they are grovelled before for BC/KS and HNM.

Do not point at manaburn PTs, do not point to soloing off pet mobs until you have soloed several levels 50+. Soloing EXP is not like a burn PT's EXP, not even close. BST mob pets do dry up and then you eventually have solo the real deal elsewhere, its there that 7k an hour you got off BST mob pets fades away.

Ask anyone who solos EXP 50+ and they will tell you it is SLOW and full of death. The only "balance" there is that they get to horde all those seals for themselves, but that is little solace when a newb WAR can go from 50-75 in a couple weeks versus PUP, BLM, BST or w/e taking months longer to get there because they are expected to solo.

Try soloing, not just for a level, or two even, but many. Then get back to me and tell me TP burns aren't broken. I've done solo, balanced and burn. There is a massive gap between the first two and the latter.

Or hell, why not tell that RDM to go solo, he can do it. If you can find it in your heart to say to BLM "at least you can solo," why can't you say it to RDM? You can claim that Refresh, Dispel and Haste are things a PT needs, but that doesn't make it true. Fast EXP per hour can happen without all three if you know how to play it right.

You can try to point to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but when other jobs get to that pot at an exponential rate and PLD or BLM do not, that's a problem.

I don't find bst pets the best solo exp there is for blm. My best solo exp pre-75 was of qiqrin in aydeewa subterrane. I made over 9k an hour off those things at level 55. This is a considerable better than most coli parties I've been in pre-75. Soloers also have the advantage of not competeing against 100 other melees seeking for a party spot. Camps are generally not crowded. I don't have to finish a chian before taking a break for a minute.

I soloed from level 41 blm to 75 in 3 weeks. Thats a lot faster than most melees leevl. Hell, even bard can take longer than three weeks depending on thie times that they play. Granted, I did have two weeks off from work, and played a fair sum during that time. But over all I think the exp is more effecient solo than parties.

Too say that manaburn cannot compete with TP burn is untrue. My average manaburn static with friends I can make close to 16k exp/hr given there arn't too many soloers there. And there are rarely soloers where we burn. My average 1 bard TP burn barely pushes 12k/hr. My average 2 bard TP burn can push 17-20k /hr.

This is assuming that you get decent melees invited. Sometimes it's a crapshoot. If I'm TP burning I expect to see dusk gear on the melees for TP gain, a swift belt, turban and acc gear. They better be hitting 89%+ acc on the parses. The thf should have a bit of homan gear and at least a blau. If the melees don't have that, no number are bards are going to help them push 10k/hr. Not all melees are created equal in a TP burn.

For example, a bard from my LS is of a rather special breed. He's on of the first NA to get past LB1 a long time ago, and is exceptional at his job. He out parsed a ridel war, black belt mnk, a relic katana nin and a homam thf in meripo on nyzul coli camp. Now imagine if more bards thought like this. They'd say screw all the needy wars and mnks and just get a party of 6 bards. Ha, thats a funny thought. Theres the fix to TP burn, DD bards.

Blms did the same thing pre-ToAU. Exp with a party for mediocre exp, or manaburn. They excluded themselves amd maybe some are regretting that now. I think TP burn are just fine the way it is. Get the exceptional melees and you can even break 40k/hr. And I think if SE removed the ability for that to happen, a lot of people would quit. With more and more people haveing several 75 jobs, thats a lot of merits. There are kings to kill, sky to farm, einherjar to do, dynamis to bitch about, if you made people spend more time exping to optimize that, you'd just make a lot of people say fudge it and move on.

Blms do just fine with thier 10-12k/hr solo exp and even more manaburning. Many of the blms I play with don't want your invites. We're quire content killing the same pet over and over, or nuking roaches and Dahaks for hours. We blms are quite content with the melees begging us for help on things that really matter in the game.