What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

[Vyuru]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

all of you bitching about his generalizations need to read that.

Well, I think those of us who bitched before he posted that had a valid reason, that would have been better to add in his first post.

-Tipsy leveled BLM before the Blm-catastrophe. You may have difficulty meriting on it (boohoo @soloing 7-10k/hour), but I doubt you had it bad leveling through the early 60s, did you?

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that :P

Armando is right, as always; make it so skillchains don't feel like a dark knight nuking, and maybe someone would give a damn about them.

Ok, now granted I party with alot of thiefs, most of them highly professional about their job, so I expect I see the high end of SC damage, but aren't SC kind of fine the way they are? It is not unusual for me to see a thf do a TA+Shark Bite I think it is, for alot of damage, and normally see a SC effect close to the 700 damage range, I don't think I've seen it higher than that though. This also happens to be my general experiance with any SC closing job subbing thief, say drk/thf or sam/thf. The sam/thf may actually see lower SC effects, but they do so many SC with the party members it kind of evens out.

SA+WS, from my experiance, rarely seems to have a resisted effect on the SC, toss on some super MB on top of that and it's pretty darn nifty.

I thought the problem was ToAU mobs being rather weak for their level and what they con as, especially once you start getting merits and uber gear.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Everyone and their sister was leveling RNG before the RNG nerf. Considering how peak RNG time was also the high point of the economy, I'd say lots of them were buying gil to be the best class in the game. <-- that's not to say all of them, don't get medieval on me, 'BBQ.

Most RNGs were burning with scorpion arrows, which were dirt cheap even back then. They didn't buy gil, mostly the e-peen RNGs did that.

The reason RNG was "overpowered" was that Slug Shot and Sidewinder just plain ignored level difference penalties other jobs were still faced with. Hence why SE gave us Flashy Shot as a merit ability later on - it revoves the level difference penalty for one shot.

When people put /seacoms of "RNG party only" I was infuriated. Now, as a Warrior, I'm still infuriated when I see "Tp burn only."

And that's why its a problem. Same song, just different jobs singing it. If you think that it was OK to utterly break RNG for the sake of other melees being able to do the same thing - which is EXACTLY what has happened - then you are blind to the obvious hypocrisy of ToA's design whens stacked against CoP and RoZ's design.

Go take your mighty WAR TP burn to Ule Range on Kindred Demons and see how well it goes, seriously, you can't burn anything there now. And RNG used to be able to burn that one somewhat, too. The RNG nerf wasn't wrong at the time, but absolutely wrong with respect to ToA's design because nothing changed with TP burn save for the jobs. If you're gonna take one class down to make them even with the rest, if that's the intention, then that should be the goal for all jobs in respect to mob design

ToA mobs are WEAK. I can one-shot most puks and imps if I'm full steam as RNG/WAR. That's not Tough or Very Tough, its Too Weak and I shouldn't be getting the EXP I am.

Do I think TP burns should be weak? No. But seriously, look at what melee jobs actually get spots in them: Warrior, Ninja. Monk gets 3rd place, Samurai a distant 4th. All other jobs, it's common (for my server anyway) to have Bards say "no thanks, DRKs suck" or whatever. What's funny is that it still leaves a lot of unloved melee that were unloved before AU too!

DRG does a LOT better in ToA than ever before, most ToA mobs were made for them and RNG doesn't lose out much. MNK, DRK and SAM have nothing to complain about as invites go and many WAR PTs are overrated.

Yeah and BRDs haven't changed one bit, the Arrowburn-only BRD disgusted me back in the day because, just like today's WAR-Onry BRDs, they were poorly geared and remained powerful.

Just as an aside, if COR requires job presence for roll bonuses, then songs should have thier respective instruments for thier bonuses. That's they way its supposed to work, yet COR's buffs without a job present is signifigantly weaker than a BRD using a level 1 flute with no bonuses.

I've levelled both and I have my preferences, but I'm not blind to the design flaw here. A BRD with a level one flute shouldn't be dishing out better attack buffs with minuets than a COR w/o DRK doing 11 for Chaos Roll. Yet it is.

-Tipsy leveled BLM before the Blm-catastrophe. You may have difficulty meriting on it (boohoo @soloing 7-10k/hour), but I doubt you had it bad leveling through the early 60s, did you?

If you've not levelled solo through the 50s, you have no inkling how steep solo EXP feels 60+. Its even worse when you seek PT and people tell you "at least you can solo your EXP" because it will take days as opposed to hours to get higher levels. Its a slap to the face to say that to BLM, PUP or BST. No shit they can solo, how do you think they got that far? We don't want to solo all the damned time.

RDM can solo and I don't see them doing it for EXP, so they've little right to speak on the matter unless they've levelled these other jobs solo. A BLU can solo until he gets an EXP PT, too, but they don't hurt for invites like BLM, PUP and BST do.

BST is actually anything but weak on EXP PTs, they can easily keep the pace just like any good DRG, pet damage adds a lot to those two jobs contribution in an EXP PT. It just continues to be myth and low population that hurts the job.

[Lmnop]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Oh crap, I lost what I typed so I get to try again. version 2.0:

I'm not disagreeing with you, bbq. there's a lot that gets lost on the internet. Basically:

-it's hypocritical for the melee parties to be doing what RNGs got nerfed for

-The lesser jobs did a lot better at first on my server. Because with even a crappy layout you were making best-of-best sky party exp. So now we want those "absolute best" parties only, because expectations have risen (that's a claim with absolutely no backing, btw).

-Either melee parties need some weakening or standards need boosted. Both is probably best -- Karinya's suggestion for changing exp tables is the best I've seen yet.

-Soloing through the 50s must be tough, but that's not my concern. I want BLMs in my parties again (I memorized the entire fucking skillchain chart just for SC/MBs to become obsolete). I don't even remember why I brought up Tipsy's BLM. I guess just that I don't think he truely understands the extent of BLM suffering. Of course, maybe he did have to solo/duo through the 50s/60s in which case I'll humbly take back my claim. But in the meantime, assuming I'm right, basically you should be throwing your "you have no idea how bad it is" words at him, since he's the one that thinks the systems just fine as is.

But other things you brought up in your post:

-people on my server refuse to party with BLUs

-LOADS refuse BSTs (I know, they're actually borderline broken if they're willing to dole out the cash)

-RDM don't solo exp because they kill too slow. There's no argument against RDM soloing when it takes 10 minutes for a T. NMs are for fun. Let them have their fun.

[Sevv]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Ok

1) I agree "standard" party needs a boost in exp, not a nerf to tp burns but a boost to harder mobs to bring it on par.

2) Most of the same people asking for nerf now were the people who were upset/didn't want nerf to manaburn or arrowburn, how quick to change sides.

3) Manaburn parties/ Blm solo will still probably do better then a "standard" party, so it still may be harder to get blms into parties.

4) 2 handed weapons should be fixed, or even with the standard party set up it still won't change the normal invite rate.

5) Rng got fixed and you can arrowburn very easy in ToAU so calling for a nerf now from rangers is a bit greedy. Would just start the whole process over again.

6) Tp Burn should not be nerfed: The reason I am saying tp burn should not be nerfed is a generalization. Effectivness in endgame for melee they need more merits to even come close to a blm or rng damage ( even tho ranger works well in burn), a whm's use, or a Pld's ability to tank. So were the jobs that tend to be exculded from tp burns only, they do get priorty in other areas of the game. It balances out really. And some jobs just get exculded no matter what the party type.

7) I'm guessing most of you get 1 merit party a week. You all have made it sound like its days before you get a merit party, I have merited now on two servers i know 2 people from ifrit who would only tp burn. Both made their own parties and never would seek. Out of the 700 people I merited with. And I have yet to see a "tp burn" only /seacom on ethier ifrit or kujata. It just seems to me calling for tp burn nerf is more of a /jealousy issue then a can't merit issue. Alot (not all) come off as a "I party this way so MY exp should be better then a burn". I do however agree that burn pts in the mire are sad, I personally lover burning the Mamjools @ nyzule isle, because they are somewhat of a challenge.

8) Blm did not get singled out because of ToAU merit wise, 52-60 was effected due to colibri camps. A good amount of Blms would have "Manaburn" only comments (on ifrit atleast), then when tp burns came around they whined that the melees they didn't party with wouldn't now invite them.

9) Last it's a game, I find tp burn fun. It is very easy exp/merits, I can chat with friends relax while getting great exp. I personally like a good amount (over half) will take any invite burn or not just getting merits. Tp burn does not effect the exp a standard party gets, unless your pulling the same mobs, but by your own regard those are far too easy so you should never pull against one. It just get annoying when a easy way to get merits that doesn't hurt the game, or the player base comes around, someone isn't happy. New flash no matter what not everyone will be happy, well unless your a bard because they have it better then ne job in this game.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

6) Tp Burn should not be nerfed: The reason I am saying tp burn should not be nerfed is a generalization. Effectivness in endgame for melee they need more merits to even come close to a blm or rng damage ( even tho ranger works well in burn), a whm's use, or a Pld's ability to tank. So were the jobs that tend to be exculded from tp burns only, they do get priorty in other areas of the game. It balances out really. And some jobs just get exculded no matter what the party type.

I don't think being desired for Salvage is much comfort to a PUP at this point. They have H2H and can help mow down the early mobs with a pet, but I wouldn't say that justifys them being forced to solo thier EXP. Especially when you die and lose that EXP.

To say "X Job is desired for Endgame, but not TP burn, so it balances out,"... just be glad I'm not a PLD or BLM because I'd have some really choice words about that. Those jobs die a LOT at endgame, as does my RNG. I can recap my RNG EXP in LS PTs and merit on COR, no problems here. But for those that are needed often on jobs that can't get merit PTs at all, that's a big problem.

And so I think its rude to go crying to that PLD or BLM for help later if you refused to merit with them on the basis of their job. I play jobs that usually clash with PLD, but I usually manage to work with them if they work with me. I'm not going to turn down a merit PT just because a PLD was in it.

[Sevv]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I don't think being desired for Salvage is much comfort to a PUP at this point. They have H2H and can help mow down the early mobs with a pet, but I wouldn't say that justifys them being forced to solo thier EXP. Especially when you die and lose that EXP.

Pup's are not invited to "normal" parties bbq I'm not talking about how broken in a bad way some jobs are. I'm talking about jobs who get normal invites but no burn invites. Pup needs some melee gear that is not a pain to obtain.

To say "X Job is desired for Endgame, but not TP burn, so it balances out,"... just be glad I'm not a PLD or BLM because I'd have some really choice words about that. Those jobs die a LOT at endgame, as does my RNG. I can recap my RNG EXP in LS PTs and merit on COR, no problems here. But for those that are needed often on jobs that can't get merit PTs at all, that's a big problem.

My drg died a ton in Endgame, back at the point before the hasso seigan buffs, I had it capped all the time. Maybe because I made my own parties. The only job I don't party with in merit is Blm, I play with plds, cor, rng, hell even pup's. I was not saying its fair over all. I should have pointed out by balance I meant the jobs need overall in the game, some jobs exp better some kill "big shit" better. You can't have everything.

And so I think its rude to go crying to that PLD or BLM for help later if you refused to merit with them on the basis of their job. I play jobs that usually clash with PLD, but I usually manage to work with them if they work with me. I'm not going to turn down a merit PT just because a PLD was in it.

I agree BBQ, I don't even ask the set up until I'm in the party. I won't lie if i get a standard party invite at the same time as a tp burn, I'm not an idiot I'm going to take the burn pt invite. Like I said, I haven't exped with Blm's 70+ in maybe 6 months before Komm had his whm leveled I would invite him to parties all the time, because he was a friend.

Also on your begging for help part I Fully Agree with that. I defend Tp burn because not every person who tp burns is an absolute dick about set ups. It is a game I play for fun hell I stayed in a 5k/hr merit party before I left ifrit because it was with friends. I help out ls plds/blm/(insert what ever non-burn pt job) when ever I can. Gotten 34 joyeuses, Jet Serwels (sp), etc. because they are friends/ls mates/ non-douches.

[Tipsy]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

-Tipsy leveled BLM before the Blm-catastrophe. You may have difficulty meriting on it (boohoo @soloing 7-10k/hour), but I doubt you had it bad leveling through the early 60s, did you?

When I level'd BLM 60-70~, it was through Bibiki Bay, averaging 3-4k an hour? Sometimes even less. From what I remember Party invites wern't that great either. And from what the person wrote who started this thread, I had assumed he was talking about end game EXP. Now that I know he's Lv.24, I don't get where he's coming from. And yes, just because we CAN solo doesn't mean we want to. It's alot harder, it's alot less fun, and there's alot of competition.

[Akashimo]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

When I level'd BLM 60-70~, it was through Bibiki Bay, averaging 3-4k an hour? Sometimes even less. From what I remember Party invites wern't that great either. And from what the person wrote who started this thread, I had assumed he was talking about end game EXP.

If you look at my quotes on my sig.... I think these fill answer the uncertaintly...

Fools who try to organize TP burns without a BRD or a WHM.

The question pertained to improving tank jobs all-around, not just endgame tanking. Endgame is not the entire game.

[Tipsy]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

If you look at my quotes on my sig.... I think these fill answer the uncertaintly...

Fools who try to organize TP burns without a BRD or a WHM.

I don't get what you mean by referring to that quote, I was talking about how I lvl'd my BLM through Bibiki Bay at 3-4k EXP an hour. You can't TP burn with a BLM.. and no they wern't Manaburns either. Just regular EXP parties.

The question pertained to improving tank jobs all-around, not just endgame tanking. Endgame is not the entire game.

Again I don't get why you refered me to that quote. If it's because of the "End game is not the entire game." then I'll say the only reason I assumed he was talking about end game EXP is because, BLM does really well in the non end game/burn-influenced parties. I never had troubles getting a PT at that level either. And any party under Lv.30 is a joke. You got like 3k EXP to get to level up..

[Armando]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Hmm. I don't think I can really agree with you on the ineffectiveness of the SC effect, since it's both an extremely strong magic accuracy booster as well as a magic attack bonus for MB'ed spells. It's especially a non-issue when parties can be configured to remedy that "defect" (with THF closing chain on SATA, or use Ninjutsu/Song), for those who care about SC effect's damage.

Should we really need a BRD + BLM just to Skillchain? Because without the MB it's not even that effective before Lv.3 skillchains and even those see resists. Plus, do we really want BRD to become necessary for non-burn parties? I don't have a problem if one party setup exploits the SC+MB tactic better, but you shouldn't need a specific party setup just to SC for damage in the first place. Job/weapon compatibilities are constrictive enough as it is! That aside, it's still not powerful enough if it can't compete with a burn party.

Ok, now granted I party with alot of thiefs, most of them highly professional about their job, so I expect I see the high end of SC damage, but aren't SC kind of fine the way they are? It is not unusual for me to see a thf do a TA+Shark Bite I think it is, for alot of damage, and normally see a SC effect close to the 700 damage range, I don't think I've seen it higher than that though. This also happens to be my general experiance with any SC closing job subbing thief, say drk/thf or sam/thf. The sam/thf may actually see lower SC effects, but they do so many SC with the party members it kind of evens out.

SA+WS, from my experiance, rarely seems to have a resisted effect on the SC, toss on some super MB on top of that and it's pretty darn nifty.

I really don't want to sound rude or anything, but do you know how much damage a SC should do? Lv.1 should do 50%. Lv.2 does 60%. Lv.3 does 100% as most people know. If you do two skillchains in a row, then if the second is Lv.1 it'll do 60%; if the second is Lv.2 it'll do 75%; if the second is Lv.3 it'll do 150%. Ever since I made my skillchain damage chart I've been observing the skillchain damage every time one happens, and I can't help but be disappointed in just about every party. Fully unresisted skillchains are a real rarity. The higher numbers aren't uncommon, but neither is getting a big resist.

Sure, THFs and people using SA+WS put up nice SC damage that's usually in the hundreds but it should be doing so much more. If SC damage didn't see so many resists people would appreciate even the basic Scission skillchain. Getting 50% of your WS's damage tacked on as bonus damage is pretty sweet, but when you go through the trouble of synchronizing with another DD, wasting some ~10-20 TP expecting 200 skillchain damage and you only get 40 in return, it really sucks. You barely made up the potential damage you lost from not using your WS ASAP, and if you don't have a BLM in the party (I don't want to discriminate them, but they're a DD and as such shouldn't be any more necessary to a party than a DRK, THF, etc...) then all you got was a cool light show and break-even damage. You didn't really lose much, but if you don't gain much then what's the point?

Nothing sucks quite as much as seeing an 800 damage WS close 3-way Light/Dark and see the SC do 600 when you know it should've done 1200 damage.

[Lmnop]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Tipsy: when many of us leveled 60-70, 4k/hour was high end exp. Your DRK probably never got to see that (I know you leveled DRK pre-AU. And for that you have my respect).

Sev, I'm quite glad to hear that you don't see "tp burn only" comments. On my server -- I kid you not, if a Refresher has a green dot next to their name (granted, most don't), I can almost guarantee it's something to that effect. Either as severe as "TP burn only" or as light as "Tp {burn} {yes, please}." Which really means "I'll take another invite, but suddenly my connection magically sucks."

I will say this:

It just seems to me calling for tp burn nerf is more of a /jealousy issue then a can't merit issue.

The majority? Ok. But my problem with this argument is that I'm living proof that it's not 100%. I get the invites, I can easily live "the high life." Problem is, my DRG friend doesn't get to. That's annoying. I have a friend who's Drk, Sam, Nin 75 (in that order). Naturally, he plays NIN the most, and enjoys the game most on NIN. He admits that he actually hates NIN (though he enjoys tanking, oddly enough). But it's just that he gets to do so much more on his NIN than his other jobs. that is a product of the player base.

At any rate, I thank all of you for keeping this page so civilized. You all get cookies.

[Akashimo]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I don't get what you mean by referring to that quote, I was talking about how I lvl'd my BLM through Bibiki Bay at 3-4k EXP an hour. You can't TP burn with a BLM.. and no they wern't Manaburns either. Just regular EXP parties.
Again I don't get why you refered me to that quote. If it's because of the "End game is not the entire game." then I'll say the only reason I assumed he was talking about end game EXP is because, BLM does really well in the non end game/burn-influenced parties. I never had troubles getting a PT at that level either. And any party under Lv.30 is a joke. You got like 3k EXP to get to level up..

>_>; I basicly meant, endgame is not the entire game which you can take from the context of the quote. Nor is TP or any other burn entire EXP/

[Vyuru]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I really don't want to sound rude or anything, but do you know how much damage a SC should do?

Np at all, I think I know how much a SC should do, but perhaps I was mistaken, I didn't know about the additional SC bonus for the bigger chains.

And it always has seemed to me that either Thiefs or people subbing Thief not only put up nice damaging SC but that SC is not resisted as much as a non SA+WS. I honestly could be wrong though.

Nothing sucks quite as much as seeing an 800 damage WS close 3-way Light/Dark and see the SC do 600 when you know it should've done 1200 damage.

Yeah, I can see why that would be disappointing and I kinda take back my stance on it. By the way, do you have a link to your SC damage chart thingy? I'd be interested in learning some more about it.

When I level'd BLM 60-70~, it was through Bibiki Bay, averaging 3-4k an hour? Sometimes even less.

It is fairly easy to get a 6k-8k exp/hr with a normal exp party there, if you have a run of bad parties I don't think it's fair to say that blm have it rough in exp.

DRG does a LOT better in ToA than ever before, most ToA mobs were made for them

You'd think that, but I haven't gotten a single invite since the Colibri camps when I actually had people fighting over me, I did enjoy that ..> But it can be a struggle to get an Imp party going sometimes, and those are weak to piercing as well.

[Tipsy]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

>_>; I basicly meant, endgame is not the entire game which you can take from the context of the quote. Nor is TP or any other burn entire EXP/

You're right, end game is not the ENTIRE game, it's a huge portion, and just about the entire game leads to 'end game.' And when was the last time you saw an update that actually pertains to people who are level 40 and under? I think SE needs to be refreshed on this fact.

Right, TP burn isn't entire EXP either, I'm well aware of that. I never said it was.

[Armando]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Here you go. http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sam...ompleting.html

Level _ | _1st_ | _2nd_ | _3rd_ | _4th_ | _5th_
Level 1 | 50%_ | 60%_ | 70%_ | 80%_ | 90%
Level 2 | 60%_ | 75%_ | 100% | 125% | 150%
Level 3 | 100% | 150% | 175% | 200% | 225%

The pattern's pretty simple so you don't even have to memorize that much. I'm surprised it's not stickied, actually.