What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

[Malacite]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

At the time my Taru was only a 44 BLM I believe, a few levels shy of the good solo camps (I believe at that range the best spot is Castle Zhval.... ugh. No /NIN on that character either). That's a dead horse now anyway, so let's leave that alone.


And the RNG nerf actually came for both reasons, EXP and End Game. Arrowburns were totally dominated EXP camps and excluding most jobs save for RDM BRD and NIN. All the while the general strat I believe was to just throw as many RNG as you could at HNMs. It's not one or the other, it's both. My point though, is SE called it wrong back then. Meanwhile today, the same thing is happening (in EXP) and SE says this is what they intended for. WTF???

They even went and nerfed manaburn in sea. This is probably the only one I agree with, as I heard it was actually possible to earn 50k/hour. I don't know if that's true or not, but with that kind of EXP power you'd be able to fully merit a job in no time, so I agree with SE in that respect.


According to the update history in the developer's room, SE isn't against the idea of a "burn" PT per say, they actually find it interesting that a group of just a few jobs can go and EXP efficiently. It's when mass groups of people start doing it and jobs get left out of the fun forced to solo or LFP for god knows how long that SE starts to get irritated and steps in as was the case with arrowburn.

[Auro]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Ok I'm new to this site (Hi :D) and reading through this thread and something is really bothering me.

Rng needed to be nerfed. Period.

At higher levels, tanks, healers and refreshers would actualy seek with "Rng only" in their search comments. And if you were, say... a monk (as I was) and you tried to start a pt, people would say, "Got any rngs?"
"No."
"<Goodbye.>"

All you needed was an up-to-date bow, some scorp arrows and some 5k bone rings and you were t3h uber-l33tnezz!@! Not only did they get TP incredibly fast, and deal loads of damage gathering it, their weaponskill did higher damage than any other ws, more consistently than any other ws. It just missed sometimes. Which could be ameliorated with Meditate-lite aka Barrage.

SE would not nerf a job just because people complained. They nerfed rng because it was incredibly over-powered and it made all the melee jobs completely obsolete. It made a rift in the game that was completely unfair and unfun to people who didn't want to either play ranger or play the bandwagon overpowered class.

That said, I did actually like playing rng (in the 2-3 weeks I went from 1-60 to spite my rng friends who would lol at how slow I leveled), I usually like the archers in MMOs, but it was just unfair. Stupidly overpowered.

[fallenintoshadows]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I don't think casual gamers hurt the game, whether they play 27 hours a day or 3 hours a week it depends on the player and how seriously they take it and how they understand their actions affect the whole of the game.

Now, going back to the topic of this thread, blms can solo incredibly well, the higher they go the better they are, providing you know your job well of course. Most blms I know solo from 60+ > 75 purely because exp is easier and faster. Not to mention because invites slow because of a little birdy with reflect. A friend of mine swears by the rats in the subterrane. So if you're leveling blm don't panic too much about slow invites.

If you don't like the idea of soloing, and some people don't, having a key job you need for a party unavailable can be a right pain in the ass. Generally it's the tank or the healer, sometimes you just need a broader view to solve this problem, don't always look for a ninja or a pld, sometimes dual war tanks work just as well, or just a war on it's own in some level ranges.

I wouldn't say there is suddenly a lack of tanks, not that I've noticed on sylph anyway, and I've been leveling a few different leveled jobs at the moment so I don't mean in just one level range. If there is on your server at the moment, there's nothing SE can do about it. They can't force players to level more of one job, sure they could encourage it by vamping up the tank jobs a bit but at the end of the day it comes down to the players preferences.

All you can do really in that situation, is wait for the job you need to pop. Ask party member's to ask friends of theirs/linkshells to see if anyone wants to level the tank they have at your level. Other than that, just wait.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Anyone who wants TP parties nerfed really doesn't have much of a clue on how keep FFXI popular and alive. SE tried nerfing a few things, and they got burned badly. Of course, sometimes nerfing is necessary, however, TP burns doesn't ruin the balance of the game.

Some jobs are simply weaker than others. Some tactics are simply weaker than others. The problem isn't that TP burns can get 15k+ an hour... it's that parties using SCs can't.

SCs needs to be boosted.

2-handed weapons need to be boosted.

DRG, BST, WAR, SAM, and PUP all need to be boosted so that they can compare to WAR, NIN, and MNK. (THF and BLU are pretty okay). NIN, WAR, and MNK have such little dependance on their sub job, that having to sub /NIN in TP burns(well, in NIN's case, being able to sub /WAR).

SE needs to give more damage mitigation abilities on all of these jobs, either for main job or sub job purposes, on the level of /NIN(or at least when combined.. for example: Seigan + whatever they give DRG = being able to sub /SAM in exp).

Now if they want to make stronger monsters be popular, monsters need to give better exp for how long they last. I've written a lot on this subject in the past. RDM tier II enfeebals, tanks, SCs, MBs, and ect would be more useful if they actually put some effort in creating a monster to fit that mold... that gave exp equal to how long it takes to kill it(like 300+ base exp and it dies every 60-90 seconds from pull if SC+MB is used).

SC+MB is an easy fix. Make SC rarely be resisted and have a damage boost. Make MB spells cost 50-75% less(giving BLM the endurance to stay around in a fast chaining party).

Until SE does make these changes, you'll have to adapt and just solo or make a static party.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

If the critters are so weak that it dies right after an skillchain, there would be no reason to MB. In fact, what would be the point of saving TP to perform one?

Three factors are in play:
1. Many VT monsters are too weak.
2. WS spam is too strong compared to SC+MB.
3. IT's do not give enough exp bonus compared with VT's for the amount of extra time/effort it takes to kill them.

Rather than making a major adjustment to just one problem, why not just make minor adjustment on all three fronts? That way, no major nerf/upgrade for anyone.

TP burns doesn't ruin the balance of the game.

It does to some degree, when it performs so much better exp/hour wise compared to SC+MB. The game should support multiple ways of configuring parties, and have them on relatively even footings compared to each other.

I'm actually OK with WS spam getting somewhat better exp than "balanced" parties, but the different should not be so great as to make it the one and only way in the minds of most players. Like BRD's--everyone love them, but people would gladly take RDM's and COR's for support role. Imagine if BRD's are so good that RDM's and COR's are shut out of majority of parties, and are told to solo or form statics only.

Most people wouldn't think that would be OK for RDM's and COR's, so why should it be OK for BLM's and others to be shut out like that?

[Armando]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

If the critters are so weak that it dies right after an skillchain, there would be no reason to MB. In fact, what would be the point of saving TP to perform one?

To kill stronger things in record time, consistently.

Rather than making a major adjustment to just one problem, why not just make minor adjustment on all three fronts? That way, no major nerf/upgrade for anyone.

That's true, but the SC system needs a major boost either way...the damage on skillchains is actually fine as it is, but the resist rates...oh man, the resist rates...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

To kill stronger things in record time, consistently.

It's not that simple. Killing stronger things this way must produce comparable exp/hour when compared to WS spam, otherwise SC+MB would still be discarded in favor of WS spam.

That's true, but the SC system needs a major boost either way...the damage on skillchains is actually fine as it is, but the resist rates...oh man, the resist rates...

Hmm. I see MB as the main reason for SC, not the SC effect. The effect is a nice bonus, but I don't really want to see anyone other than THF able to naturally get full damage on a consistent basis. (Keep in mind that every melee DD Lv60+ can use TA and SA--got to give THF's an distinction of some sort... And, no, Assasin trait isn't enough by itself.)

Besides, can't we already get those effect damage more consistent with the use of -ton Ninjutsu and/or Thrnody songs? The reason people don't get full damage on those effects is because they don't bother to take steps to ensure they can, and not because S-E didn't provide the means.

That said, a small increase in max damage possible for SC effects wouldn't be a bad thing. (I guess while I'm not afraid of "nerfs" for balancing the game, I don't want to see any major positive or negative adjustment anywhere.)

[Armando]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

It's not that simple. Killing stronger things this way must produce comparable exp/hour when compared to WS spam, otherwise SC+MB would still be discarded in favor of WS spam.

True. I'm just saying, if skillchains got stronger, it wouldn't be for killing things that are already weak, it'd be for killing things that are hard to kill faster still. Whether it'd be as good as a TP burn is another issue, but at least it would bring us one step closer to making them equal.

Besides, can't we already get those effect damage more consistent with the use of -ton Ninjutsu and/or Thrnody songs? The reason people don't get full damage on those effects is because they don't bother to take steps to ensure they can, and not because S-E didn't provide the means.

Very good points, but we shouldn't have to rely on Threnodies (especially since the BRD can only use one at a time) just to get decent accuracy. -ton Ninjutsu, sure (though convincing people to use them is an absolute bitch.) Still, you can get resisted with surprising frequency on just Tough mobs. That's absurd. It's way too easy to get over a 3/4 resist without "outside help" from Threnodies and Ninjutsu. It practically becomes pointless to do it for the SC itself, like you said, which is not how it should be in my opinion. Even if the mob is weak to the SC you still see frequent resists. Resistance down effects should be there to help, not to make it possible.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Until SE does make these changes, you'll have to adapt and just solo or make a static party.

Funny, I seem to remember RNGs and BLMs saying that to other jobs.

That alone is proof something is wrong with ToA when these jobs now tell BLM to do the same, yet, come crying to them for every KS/CoP BCNM/HNM win.

Pathetic, to say the least.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Hmm. I don't think I can really agree with you on the ineffectiveness of the SC effect, since it's both an extremely strong magic accuracy booster as well as a magic attack bonus for MB'ed spells. It's especially a non-issue when parties can be configured to remedy that "defect" (with THF closing chain on SATA, or use Ninjutsu/Song), for those who care about SC effect's damage.

Probably should just leave this sub-topic at that, and wait to see which way S-E wants to go in order to encouraging different styles of exp parting. (Seems like they do care, with the recent upgrade to Signet for solo and small parties... One can only hope they will continue to care... )

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Rather than making a major adjustment to just one problem,

Wut?

This is what you would be doing by increasing the strength of exp monsters(in only one portion of Vana'diel, no less).

If SC+MB is made more popular it's effects are felt throughout the game, both outside exp and earlier than TP Burn(as you might have noticed, SCs have lost popularity in all level ranges).

BLMs become more effective in more areas of the game that function like a party if MB's give a conserve effect. Assault(especially Nyzul Investigation) and Salvage come to mind. SMN magical BPs would get a HUGE boost with this as well. SMN magical BPs are practically ignored for being too weak, however would become quite effective if they had the benefit of being especially potent when used with SCs.

Let's not forget DRG, DRK, PUP, and others could use a boost in more than just exp.

I'm tired of repeating myself, so I'll leave it at that.

PS:

Newsflash:

TP Burn was the best way to get exp back in RoZ's time.

[Tipsy]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Legal Fish is Blood Red?

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Yes

[Lmnop]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Gah, why do I always have to come be the forum paladin?

This is not to say that all casual gamers are gilbuyers, or vice versa. In almost every intelligent discussion I've read regarding gilbuying this was the most often used rationalization.

all of you bitching about his generalizations need to read that.


Everyone and their sister was leveling RNG before the RNG nerf. Considering how peak RNG time was also the high point of the economy, I'd say lots of them were buying gil to be the best class in the game. <-- that's not to say all of them, don't get medieval on me, 'BBQ. When people put /seacoms of "RNG party only" I was infuriated. Now, as a Warrior, I'm still infuriated when I see "Tp burn only."

Do I think TP burns should be weak? No. But seriously, look at what melee jobs actually get spots in them: Warrior, Ninja. Monk gets 3rd place, Samurai a distant 4th. All other jobs, it's common (for my server anyway) to have Bards say "no thanks, DRKs suck" or whatever. What's funny is that it still leaves a lot of unloved melee that were unloved before AU too!

-Tipsy leveled BLM before the Blm-catastrophe. You may have difficulty meriting on it (boohoo @soloing 7-10k/hour), but I doubt you had it bad leveling through the early 60s, did you?

-I seem to notice all the people who are pro-TP burn and think there isn't a problem are also the people who enjoy being the strongest. If you played rock, paper, scissors, but rock tore a hole in paper so it always won (thank you, Seinfeld), you would choose rock and say there wasn't a problem with the game to all the people trying to prove the potential of paper.

Armando is right, as always; make it so skillchains don't feel like a dark knight nuking, and maybe someone would give a damn about them.

And Karinya said some sentence that I already forget on page 1 -- something to the extent that it's true that players decide on what works best, but it's S-E that writes those rules. You guys realize that tomorrow, there could be a patch that gives WHM 4 Accuracy traits, 4 Attack Traits, all 3 jumps, and an A+ hammer skill. Oh, and Refresh II for kicks (it'll be 10 mp/tic, naturally) They can do that! Would you still say that it's the player's fault that the game's not balanced?

[Cotners]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Some of these posts are rediculously long and are hurting my brain.