What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

No, just the people I think have a point.

Exactly what was YOUR point in bringing this up, and exactly what is your problem with it?

I think he just feels left out because you didn't thank him. :P

And Legal, the subject of "challenge" in chaining was brought up by you, so the burden of proof on high-chaining being challenging vs. SC/MB is on you.

I was pointing out the lack of challenge in a melee hitting auto-attack and just being fed mobs, the real challenge in those parties lies on healer/support classes. Even tank jobs require little thought or movement in TP burns, so you may as well count them as melee at that point.

I take it that you've never really pulled for any kind of meleeburn PT and the constant pressure it entails. Roaming manaburns are one thing and there's a point where every BLM can claim or Duo kill there, its not like melee burn PTs where mobs have to be lined up constantly, where haste and buffs must be kept up constantly. And its not something RDM and THF are as apt at doing as BRD and COR are, so its really impressive when they pull it off.

The challenge is not with the melee, they didn't do much to make those chains happen other than stand there and hit Attack and a WS macro. Whoopee.

Oh ok, sometimes there's a Chi Blast or Provoke. Sometimes thoughts are displayed, but its really just Attack/WS. Where is the "challenge" in that?

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

And Legal, the subject of "challenge" in chaining was brought up by you, so the burden of proof on high-chaining being challenging vs. SC/MB is on you.

I don't have a problem with it, but it's sort of an eyesore. You seem to have a habit of thanking people instead of talking yourself, that's no way to get your point across.

And Legal, the subject of "challenge" in chaining was brought up by you, so the burden of proof on high-chaining being challenging vs. SC/MB is on you.

How am I to fulfill this burden exactly? Melees waiting to hit "switch target" and keeping shadows up isn't exactly less difficult than waiting until their buddy has TP, then pushing their WS macro.

And honestly, what the hell are you talking about? Why are you comparing melee to mage? We are talking about party comparisons.

[BurningPanther]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Calling me out is an eyesore. The "Thanks!" feature is there for use with whom one sees fit, as I saw fit to thank 'kitten's post, which doesn't need a post from me in turn. If you dislike the aesthetic attribute of the feature, take it up with the site designer/Admin/whoever. Don't single me out otherwise.

[Sevv]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

RDM, BRD or COR have to pull, buff and sleep. Main Healer WHM or RDM have to Maintain Haste, Refresh, Regen and keeping the party alive. All melee requires in TP burn is a pulse, with the exception of THF, BLU and RNG - those melees actually have to think.

Anyone notice how bbq said all his jobs are hard and rng doesn't require any thinking lol no melee job does. If you have to think about what you need to do as melee at 75 your doing it wrong. Melee in exp is much much much easier than mages. No matter what the mobs are, melee is nice and easy.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Anyone notice how bbq said all his jobs are hard and rng doesn't require any thinking lol no melee job does. If you have to think about what you need to do as melee at 75 your doing it wrong. Melee in exp is much much much easier than mages. No matter what the mobs are, melee is nice and easy.

He plays FFXI THE REAL WAY.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Anyone notice how bbq said all his jobs are hard and rng doesn't require any thinking lol no melee job does. If you have to think about what you need to do as melee at 75 your doing it wrong. Melee in exp is much much much easier than mages. No matter what the mobs are, melee is nice and easy.

Ranger requires a bit more effort than other melees. Not by much - especially so for the RNGs of old pre-nerf, they phoned in their melee almost just a badly as other melees today - but it requires an active presence. People kinda notice when RNG isn't shooting and taking down mobs at 1/3 or 1/2 HP.

RNG actually does have the ability to enfeeble, too, my Xbow macros are no different than how my RDM macros were lined up for the most part. I have my arrows tiered off in different macros as well. I mean, if you want to spam off Kabura and Demon arrows, that's your call, I'm gonna toss in a few Marid Arrows, man. Comprable damage and it saves me gil.

Demon arrows will lessen damage taken.
Acid Bolts - like Angon - will lower mob defense.
Then there's Blind, Venom and Holy bolts if you care to use those.

And I'm not just saying RDM, BRD and COR because they are or have been my jobs, those jobs are busier than most others and it never ends. Only jobs that can hope to compare are PLD, NIN and WHM after that. Or a good BLU or SMN, which will look beyond the Physical Spells to use enfeeble or support as needed.

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I have to disagree with this!
There aren't enough monsters, even if you kill them as they popped, to make chains that high. If only SE didn't nerf Sea's SMNs..

ah, thanks for the heads up on flans: I had been told by a couple friends they could infinite chain for <30seconds which put them in the 18k+ range (which I rounded since the conversation has mostly been about exp/hr tiers of 5, 10, 15, 20 and not specific camp maximums). if there aren't enough then that calculation is obviously incorrect :) thanks for the tip.

Anyway, you might wasting your breath Amele, I wouldn't be surprised if most of people who argued against your points didn't have a single idea how VIT/Def works or that monster stats are based on jobs.

well, you may be right, but it's an interesting argument either way ^^ and honestly, it's useful to find out what people do and don't think about the game. (it's been surprising to me how many people don't know/remember the level range of conquest level mobs, so I'll start pointing it out sooner next time someone on my ls complains about the state of exp, lol)

The challenge is not with the melee, they didn't do much to make those chains happen other than stand there and hit Attack and a WS macro. Whoopee.

it's interesting because SC+MB is really just /attack /ws too. the only difference is, instead of trying to judge when to use it to make the kill, and when to hold it because the damage would be wasted and 2 seconds off this mob we're going to chain anyway isn't going to be worth not saving 5 seconds on the next mob. instead of waiting the SC+MB for the same reason.

tanks aren't particularly more challenging in exp at 75 either (if it is, you're doing something wrong). and the pace of most SC+MB parties is slow enough that even mages have an easy time of it.

on the other hand, unlike in SC+MB where the party is setup such that it's solely the blm determining whether or not you make the next chain, every single melee has some direct control on it in a modern merit.

I thank my stars for good melee, when I get them. Mages may be the glue that holds a modern merit party together, but it's the melee who do the killing and the faster they can kill, the faster the bard can pull, and the more exp we *all* get.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

my Xbow macros

THF, WAR, and DRK all can and, if they are any good(especially THF), do use Xbow to enfeeble.

Also, nothing you said really contradicts RNG being as simple as any other melee. I mean really... are we suppose to be impressed you switch ammo during battle? Wow, that's completely different from switching gear! RNG is likely to be less busier than NIN, WAR, or MNK who's tanking.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

There is no challenge? Surprise, surprise... there was no challenge from SCing and MBing too. A Melee would probably be more awake because he has to switch targets before the one he is figthing dies or he loses two or three potential hits.

I never thought that SCing as a melee was all that difficult. Learning to read a SC chart is a little challenging. Forming a party with the right mix of jobs to actually take advantage of a good SC + MB was difficult. Once the party was at camp, and it came time to perform the SC? Cake. I find myself having to pay much closer to attention to things and be far more active in a TP burn party. In TP burn, any melee attacks after I've already hit 100+ TP is wasted TP. Meanwhile, in the SC + MB pt, I usually wind up standing around with 150 TP just staring at the screen, either waiting for a SC partner or trying not to interfere with the players who are part of the SC.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

I thank my stars for good melee, when I get them. Mages may be the glue that holds a modern merit party together, but it's the melee who do the killing and the faster they can kill, the faster the bard can pull, and the more exp we *all* get.

Hmm. How often does that "we" there include PLD? THF? SMN? BST? BLM? ... PUP?!

Can that "we" ever be formed without a BRD? Would you be thanking your stars if you're invited to a TP spam party without one?


* * *

WS spam party is good, but the problem is that it's too good compared to other setups. I don't think the majority of players against them want them to be nerfed out of existence, but merely want the difference between WS spam and SC+MB parties to be reduced.

Ultimately, I want every job to be able to exp in full party of some sort. Without begging or taking pity invites "because there's no one else seeking". >_>; Also, I want no job to be an absolute requirement--there shouldn't be a requirement for BRD before WS Spam or any other sort of party can hit "par" in exp/hour.

[Sevv]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Hmm. How often does that "we" there include PLD? THF? SMN? BST? BLM? ... PUP?!
Can that "we" ever be formed without a BRD? Would you be thanking your stars if you're invited to a TP spam party without one?
* * *
WS spam party is good, but the problem is that it's too good compared to other setups. I don't think the majority of players against them want them to be nerfed out of existence, but merely want the difference between WS spam and SC+MB parties to be reduced.
Ultimately, I want every job to be able to exp in full party of some sort. Without begging or taking pity invites "because there's no one else seeking". >_>; Also, I want no job to be an absolute requirement--there shouldn't be a requirement for BRD before WS Spam or any other sort of party can hit "par" in exp/hour.

So we had a cool couple tp burn pt the other nights just because people throw out blah blah blah /emo not all jobs can burn.

War/Nin Thf/Nin Bst/Nin War/Nin Smn/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr

War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Pup/War Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Nyzule Isle SP (on mamjools) 25k/hr

War/Nin War/Nin Mnk/Nin Pld/Nin Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr

Nin/War War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Bst/Nin Rdm/Whm
Nyzule Isle 17k/hr

So if you get good players it really doesn't matter exact jobs in the pt you can still pull good exp.

[Karinya]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Imbalances between party setups create imbalances between jobs that are crucial to those setups, jobs that are welcome and jobs that are tolerated if no better job is seeking. That's a big problem for the BLM and tanks. (Some tank jobs are allowed in meleeburn if they promise not to try to tank.)


P.S. By "good melee" you mean "well-equipped melee", whether you realize it or not. Melee performance is 95% gear, which is the point that all of these "melee in this party takes no skill, melee in that party takes no skill" posts are dancing around. And there's two things that will reliably get you better gear faster than other players: being in a LS with people who cheat to claim timer-pop HNMs, and RMT.

[Karinya]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

So we had a cool couple tp burn pt the other nights just because people throw out blah blah blah /emo not all jobs can burn.
War/Nin Thf/Nin Bst/Nin War/Nin Smn/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr
War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Pup/War Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Nyzule Isle SP (on mamjools) 25k/hr
War/Nin War/Nin Mnk/Nin Pld/Nin Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr
Nin/War War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Bst/Nin Rdm/Whm
Nyzule Isle 17k/hr
So if you get good players it really doesn't matter exact jobs in the pt you can still pull good exp.

Wait, what? All of your examples have at least two war/nins and three out of four of them have a bard. And the one that doesn't have a bard got significantly less exp.

None had any two handed weapon user (except H2H). None had a WHM or a BLM. In fact, out of four parties, 24 people, only 10 jobs total are represented. All had at least four people using NIN main or sub, usually 5.

How does this prove that the jobs in the party don't matter? It sure looks like it's proving exactly the opposite: utsusemi and bards are good, other things are bad.


Furthermore, although this may surprise you, I didn't level PLD so I could be a crappy substitute for WAR/NIN, using my gimpy imitation Rampage with my gimpy imitation Ridill and my gimpy imitation Adaberk. I leveled a job that could tank, and was useful as a tank. I'm not exactly thrilled to have the rug pulled out from under the concept of tanking by the shadowspam party concept. Yes, I could blow a couple million on DD gear and be a mediocre DD, but why? Using PLD as a DD is like using a violin as a flyswatter. That's not what it's for, even if it is kinda sorta effective sometimes.

Again, although I hate shadowspam, I'm not asking for it to be wiped out of existence. I *am* asking for exp/hr parity with other forms of exp parties, so that I can form a type of party I like, with the jobs that work well in that party, and get approximately the same exp as people who have mastered the challenging skill of hitting their Utsusemi macro *and* their Rampage macro while wearing leet kings/faf drops.

[Lmnop]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

So we had a cool couple tp burn pt the other nights just because people throw out blah blah blah /emo not all jobs can burn.
War/Nin Thf/Nin Bst/Nin War/Nin Smn/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr
War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Pup/War Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Nyzule Isle SP (on mamjools) 25k/hr
War/Nin War/Nin Mnk/Nin Pld/Nin Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr
Nin/War War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Bst/Nin Rdm/Whm
Nyzule Isle 17k/hr
So if you get good players it really doesn't matter exact jobs in the pt you can still pull good exp.

You're right and I thank you for being open minded enough to bring along some of those "less desired" jobs. I especially like the first layout -- thf bst and smn. That's about as unloved as it gets. However, I can't help but notice that the bare minimum amount of Warriors in those set ups is 2. The only layout that doesn't have a Bard has 4 people who use Rampage.

It's like "we can take some of those jobs, but we need to be at least half ideal?" I know this sounds like I'm bitching but honestly... I think this is exactly where we need to start. Having an almost-perfect TP burn party with a few underloved jobs tossed in and performing no worse for it. Not only does this do the obvious - getting a few of those guys spots in parties that'll get more than 5k/hour - it also exposes the top dog jobs to what those dragoons and beastmasters can do.

I would like some of my mage friends to see what my DRG friends are capable of w/out making my DDs /anon.

Baby steps.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Imbalances between party setups create imbalances between jobs that are crucial to those setups, jobs that are welcome and jobs that are tolerated if no better job is seeking. That's a big problem for the BLM and tanks. (Some tank jobs are allowed in meleeburn if they promise not to try to tank.)


P.S. By "good melee" you mean "well-equipped melee", whether you realize it or not. Melee performance is 95% gear, which is the point that all of these "melee in this party takes no skill, melee in that party takes no skill" posts are dancing around.

And as Lmnop pointed out, people will take a noob trash WAR just as much as they'll take the seasoned WAR, its just a matter of who accepts the fastest. So its not even about the gear, just class perception. Here's one instance where nothing has changed between any expansion.

"X Popular Job = Good"

Therefore, invite X Popular Job over anything else seeking. I suppose there is one difference from that trend today, its that people don't give any thought of how to integrate other jobs in with that job. Just stack in a few melees and go, preferably of the X variety.

And there's two things that will reliably get you better gear faster than other players: being in a LS with people who cheat to claim timer-pop HNMs, and RMT.

Well, to be honest, I've seen non-Ridill WARs outparse Ridill WARs, so even with melee jobs being 95% gear, you also still need to be able to use it all properly. So not every cheater wins for bot claiming or going through RMT.