What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

[Karinya]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Just because it took us 4 years to figure out that SE didn't intend for us to exp on paladin crabs for 40 levels, doesn't mean that exp in AU is somehow brokenly easy.

You're missing the point. What were the non-paladin low def/eva/HP mobs of the original game and RoZ (leaving aside beastmen, which usually come in an inconvenient mix of jobs)? Scorpions, raptors, pugils (if dispelled), cockatrices, bombs, tigers, spiders, cactuars... Seeing any pattern here? They all had high attack, bloody dangerous TP moves, or both. People leveled on crabs and beetles because they were *afraid* of the offense-oriented mobs. CoP was even worse with hippogryphs, taurus, clusters and snolls. They actually do die pretty fast, the problem is that you might just die even faster...

It took TAU to give us mobs with low defense, low HP *and* low attack and weak TP moves. It broke the mob attack vs. mob defense tradeoff and made monsters that were bad at *everything* except stealing your food and returning magic. Which, surprise surprise, turns out not to be enough to keep them from being easier than everything else, especially if you're not relying on elemental and enfeebling magic to start with.

Not all TAU mobs are like that, of course. Marids, flans, wamoura (both kinds) and soulflayers aren't unbalancingly weak. But it only takes a few mob families that are to redefine what is and isn't good exp/hr.

And yes, exp in AU *is* brokenly easy. Look at any pre-TAU thread about exp setups, camps and exp rates and the differences will practically club you over the head. Every pre-TAU camp and setup is as good or better *in absolute terms* than it was before (new food, merits, gear, improvements to Signet, improvements to some jobs, less crowding). But all, or almost all, are now *comparative* crap, because you can now underhunt without running out of mobs and get 15% exp bonus and 1 mp/tick for doing it.

at the risk of making this a long winded reply: 1) most mobs aren't level 80-83 in non AU areas (the sweet spot of +5-+8 for exp:difficulty)

And this is the other major part of the problem (aside from the "bad at everything except 1-2 tricks that aren't that important" mob families). Exp/hr in merit maxes out at really, really, absurdly low monster levels, because monsters of those levels are just worth way too much exp for the fight they put up. If you cut the base exp value of those "VT" mobs by 1/3 to 1/2, then it would bring their exp value:difficulty ratio in line with more challenging mobs. Removing the huge bonus for picking on such wimpy mobs (level wise, not just family wise) would have a variety of ripple effects that would effectively transform the whole high level exp dynamic to something more balanced and fun.

That's what I want to see, regardless of whether the eventual exp rate (for a wide variety of party setups, which will make about the same in a balanced game) is 10k/hr, 20k/hr or 30k/hr. Yes, the party that's going to fight colibris still wants THF, DRG, RNG and no BLM - but another party going to fight something else *does* want a tank, SAM and BLM, and they'll get about the same exp/hr, so it balances out.

Infinite chain might need some looking at too, but the *base* exp value of wimpy mobs is the main problem IMO.

[Raydeus]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

2. A new BLM trait... call it "Sorcerer" for kicks.

Level 30. Greatly lowers the enmity of MB'd spells.

I like this trait, although I'd call it "Hit&Run" or something like that. =P


Edit > Also the amount of Emnity substracted should be dependant on the SC level/skill/damage, to prevent the abuse by just spamming lvl1 SC and MB'ng with high tier nukes.

[Karinya]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

P.S. Legal Fish's ideas are interesting, but IMO unnecessary if the deeper flaws (principally the excessive reward for underhunting) are fixed. SC+MB is already worth trying if the monster won't be dead in 30 seconds - even if you're not guaranteed full SC effect damage. Worth keeping on file in case further change is needed, though.

[Tipsy]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

When is this thread gonna die? lol

gee willikers batman

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Karinya you reminded me of an important point.

The Exp awarded from IT and higher(should they be added) would have to make up for the time it takes to kill them.

Underhunting isn't much a problem, as long we get the option to be rewarded just as well with stronger opponents.

[Karinya]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Personally I don't like the dynamics that result from underhunting, but with the rewards in place now, it's hard to pass up... and even harder to convince 5 other people to pass up with you. That's a big problem, IMO the biggest in the game right now. I suppose it's up to SE whether they want things to settle out with everyone making 10k/hr or everyone making 30k/hr, but there needs to be some parity between different setups, camps and tactics, not "meleeburn or do something half as good".

TBH, part of me wants to go further than this and say: fighting monsters that weak isn't really fighting at all. It doesn't deserve even comparable experience to parties that are actually cooperating and using team tactics to defeat dangerous enemies. B.F. Skinner could train a pigeon to spam Rampage.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

You make it seem people are fighting a single T or VT for a lot of TP gain. There is sort of range of challenge(at least comparable to having two people use WSes together) in having to be fast, killing many monsters in a short time.

The problem is that on the side of the spectrum, slower but more rewarding fights, there is nothing.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

You make it seem people are fighting a single T or VT for a lot of TP gain. There is sort of range of challenge(at least comparable to having two people use WSes together) in having to be fast, killing many monsters in a short time.

Challenge for who, exactly?

These parties are 90% BRD/RDM/COR work and 10% melee work. And I'm being generous and assuming there is a RDM pulling, they're more of a White Mage with Refresh in most parties these days. PTs don't need RDMs for endurance anymore and without the need for enfeebles, that diminishes varying facets of NIN, PLD, COR, BLU, BRD and other jobs.

Melees just kick back and get fed mobs. The challenge is generally on the support/healing members of the party and you just hope the melees don't lose focus.

[Lmnop]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

TP burns encourage people to only care about their own big numbers. At least Manaburn requires timing and cooperation. Melee parties, it's just trying to make sure you and another WAR don't Rampage at the same time when one would be enough to kill the mob.

Skillchain accuracy does need boosted, but BRP's idea really isn't enough. You said make it based off of Weapon Skill level so it's more like a BLM nuke. I think that may actually be how it works right now... it just doesn't have a stat added to it the way BLMs also get some benefit from INT. At any rate, if you just plugged in a number that would correspond to an "A rank" stat of the closer's level (i.e. a number added equal to what a BLM would add from INT), then you're still only nuking naked, so to speak. Particularly in the low-mid levels, a BLM will load up on whatever he can to make sure his nukes do not get resisted. But a skillchain can't wear Seer's Gear.

As is, the one way I've found to reliably and noticeably lower skillchain resist rate is through Ninjutsu elementals. I'm assuming BRD threnody would work great as well, but that can be resisted and comes from someone who already has a very busy job. I find it ironic that the only 2 methods of making skillchains good are key elements to TP burns.

ZomG Wyvern breath weapons should lower resistance to an element, and they should be smart enough to read the weapon properties of the WS used and attempt to predict a skillchain that would come off of it. That way Wheeling Thrust -> thunder resist down -> spinning slash -> unresisted light.

Oh, and even more than the concept of skillchain-> exp, I hate the idea that skillchain level would be somehow required. As is, people think level 1 SCs suck, when they'll 9/10 give comparable damage to level 3 SCs. I want encouragement to use all skillchains (when's the last time you say transifixion animation?), not just the top 2.

[Armando]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

ZomG Wyvern breath weapons should lower resistance to an element, and they should be smart enough to read the weapon properties of the WS used and attempt to predict a skillchain that would come off of it. That way Wheeling Thrust -> thunder resist down -> spinning slash -> unresisted light.

This would be ridiculously awesome.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Challenge for who, exactly?

These parties are 90% BRD/RDM/COR work and 10% melee work. And I'm being generous and assuming there is a RDM pulling, they're more of a White Mage with Refresh in most parties these days. PTs don't need RDMs for endurance anymore and without the need for enfeebles, that diminishes varying facets of NIN, PLD, COR, BLU, BRD and other jobs.

Melees just kick back and get fed mobs. The challenge is generally on the support/healing members of the party and you just hope the melees don't lose focus.

Good lord, BurningPanther just thanks everyone.

There is no challenge? Surprise, surprise... there was no challenge from SCing and MBing too. A Melee would probably be more awake because he has to switch targets before the one he is figthing dies or he loses two or three potential hits.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

There is no challenge? Surprise, surprise... there was no challenge from SCing and MBing too. A Melee would probably be more awake because he has to switch targets before the one he is figthing dies or he loses two or three potential hits.

RDM, BRD or COR have to pull, buff and sleep. Main Healer WHM or RDM have to Maintain Haste, Refresh, Regen and keeping the party alive. All melee requires in TP burn is a pulse, with the exception of THF, BLU and RNG - those melees actually have to think.

[Amele]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

You're missing the point. What were the non-paladin low def/eva/HP mobs of the original game and RoZ (leaving aside beastmen, which usually come in an inconvenient mix of jobs)?

except for antican, I don't really see why you say what you do about beastmen: orcs are mostly war, monk, ranger, two of which are quite easy to kill, and one of which lends itself just fine to paladin style face-tanking, which is the standard until 74+ (at which point in RoZ you were fighting weapons or cockatrice anyway)

quadav are mostly mages and are damn squishy besides. - beyond leg sweep (which isn't particularly different than whirling rage, in damage or range) yagudo are primarily sam, nin, bard, whm which is just about an *ideal* mix of jobs.

goblins are excellent and we can level on them at almost every level range now.

- excluding such a significant chunk of mobs is misleading, especially since several of the most popular AU camps are on Mamool (which are a beastman mob) and several tier 2 camps are on beastmen as well (qutrub, trolls, imps, etc).

Scorpions, raptors, pugils (if dispelled), cockatrices, bombs, tigers, spiders, cactuars... Seeing any pattern here? They all had high attack, bloody dangerous TP moves, or both.

oh give me a break. single bat (not tri-bat), bees, birds (the little ones), cockatrice (which are a snap with stona, have you tried exping on them? they're really not bad at all.) coeurl, which are pushovers except for evasion, crawlers, flys, dhalmel,

People leveled on crabs and beetles because they were *afraid* of the offense-oriented mobs.

no, NA leveled on crabs and beetles because that's what the *JP* leveled on, but they also stayed at camps two more levels than we did. There's alot of historical reasons why Crabs and Beetles were chosen but it's not something to get into here.

CoP was even worse with hippogryphs, taurus, clusters and snolls. They actually do die pretty fast, the problem is that you might just die even faster...

again: listing only the 'hard' mobs, and skipping the easy ones is misleading: cop also gave us a million billion dhalmels, more bees, more birds, hpemde, the hippogryphs you mentioned, which just happen to come with a *built in* 10% exp bonus.(and are easy to get to. *And* drop useful farming materials), fomori which are just fine for exp purposes, etc etc.

It took TAU to give us mobs with low defense, low HP *and* low attack and weak TP moves. It broke the mob attack vs. mob defense tradeoff and made monsters that were bad at *everything* except stealing your food and returning magic.

uh, what? pecking flurry routinely does 500+ if someone gets caught by it. that's one of the most devasting single target multihits in the game after big birds triple attack. they hit no weaker than other redmage mobs their level, (I should know; I have to cure people when they get smacked) and have a racial evasion boost on top of what a mob their level should have.

for the 100th time: they're *not* any weaker than other mobs their job and level would be. the reason they're so much better than exp in Conquest areas is because conquest mobs are too weak. not the other way around.

Which, surprise surprise, turns out not to be enough to keep them from being easier than everything else, especially if you're not relying on elemental and enfeebling magic to start with.

they're not easier than everything else. Prove to me they're easier than other mobs of their level and job class, and then I'll accept this argument. (and no. popularity in exp has nothing to do with it, or we'd *never* exp on crabs or beetles).

Not all TAU mobs are like that, of course. Marids, flans, wamoura (both kinds) and soulflayers aren't unbalancingly weak. But it only takes a few mob families that are to redefine what is and isn't good exp/hr.

flans are also 20k/hr with the right group. marids used to be 36k/hr til SE nerfed them. wamoura are easily 12-15k/hr according to my blm friends. soulflayers aren't designed for exp (there's too few and they're too far apart.) you get more exp/hr in ToAU because there are *more* mobs in the right level range, end of story.

And yes, exp in AU *is* brokenly easy. Look at any pre-TAU thread about exp setups, camps and exp rates and the differences will practically club you over the head.

we're stronger than we were then, by three patches to the merit point caps/quantity/ and diversity of meritable abilities.

the mobs we're fighting are also at a better exp point for us.

look at the kill rates projected for sky deco weapons: "kill both rooms, then head back to the start and the first room will be repopping" was the standard theory (hell, you used to be able to support two non-bard parties there). now: same mobs, same space. you'll clear both rooms and wait 5 minutes for the first repop.

Every pre-TAU camp and setup is as good or better *in absolute terms* than it was before (new food, merits, gear, improvements to Signet, improvements to some jobs, less crowding). But all, or almost all, are now *comparative* crap, because you can now underhunt without running out of mobs and get 15% exp bonus and 1 mp/tick for doing it.

yes, 15% exp bonus contributes to it, yes so does 1mp/tick, BUT! the reason CP areas are crap now is because there's not enough mobs and they're not high enough level (except for one standout zone that is 30 minutes away because you *have to walk* and requires a whitemage to port you to the 30 minute away point).

And this is the other major part of the problem (aside from the "bad at everything except 1-2 tricks that aren't that important" mob families). Exp/hr in merit maxes out at really, really, absurdly low monster levels, because monsters of those levels are just worth way too much exp for the fight they put up. If you cut the base exp value of those "VT" mobs by 1/3 to 1/2, then it would bring their exp value:difficulty ratio in line with more challenging mobs.

backward again, prior to toau, there were only a handful of mobs that broke level 80 and weren't NM. (spartoi, aura statues, kindred) and kindred were added in CoP. of those, aura statues are a mob family that is high def low attack and high magic def (classic pld type basically, although I think their job is warrior). spartoi are good but are even less mage friendly than toau because you *have* to either roam or manaburn. and kindred are 30+ minutes away best case.

Removing the huge bonus for picking on such wimpy mobs (level wise, not just family wise) would have a variety of ripple effects that would effectively transform the whole high level exp dynamic to something more balanced and fun.
That's what I want to see, regardless of whether the eventual exp rate (for a wide variety of party setups, which will make about the same in a balanced game)

doing this would actually invalidate all non-taou camps except for KRT, ullikimmi, and Uleg range. (basically half of them.) it wrecks Bibiki, it wrecks moon, it wrecks first floor shrine, it makes kuftal tunnel ovinnik a joke.

Infinite chain might need some looking at too, but the *base* exp value of wimpy mobs is the main problem IMO.

SE planned for infinite chain to be a possibility. ceiling(5 minutes / 40 seconds) = 8 mobs. 8 mobs that are T+ and within pulling range with a 5 minute repop = infinite chain. every major popular outdoor camp has at least 8 mobs. IF SE didn't plan for infinite chain to be a possibility, they wouldn't have coded chains past 5 into the game in the first place.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

flans are also 20k/hr with the right group. marids used to be 36k/hr til SE nerfed them. wamoura are easily 12-15k/hr according to my blm friends. soulflayers aren't designed for exp (there's too few and they're too far apart.) you get more exp/hr in ToAU because there are *more* mobs in the right level range, end of story.

I have to disagree with this!

There aren't enough monsters, even if you kill them as they popped, to make chains that high. If only SE didn't nerf Sea's SMNs..


Anyway, you might wasting your breath Amele, I wouldn't be surprised if most of people who argued against your points didn't have a single idea how VIT/Def works or that monster stats are based on jobs.

RDM, BRD or COR have to pull, buff and sleep. Main Healer WHM or RDM have to Maintain Haste, Refresh, Regen and keeping the party alive. All melee requires in TP burn is a pulse, with the exception of THF, BLU and RNG - those melees actually have to think.

You don't include any facts that say these parties are less difficult than a party that uses SC and MB... or even with a tank.

[BurningPanther]

Re: What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

Good lord, BurningPanther just thanks everyone.

No, just the people I think have a point.

Exactly what was YOUR point in bringing this up, and exactly what is your problem with it?