Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

I'd personally just like to see fewer or the purely mindless gilsinks, like just buying oils and powers for sky or any other high level zone.

For the purposes of this thread, that's technically not a gilsink. A gilsink removes gil from the economy. If you buy consumables like oils and powders, gil is not removed from the economy. It is simply transfered to another player, with material being transfered in the opposite direction. And when you use an oil or a powder, you remove material from the economy, which causes inflation (however small) and acts opposite to what a gilsink does (i.e. causes deflation).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

For the purposes of this thread, that's technically not a gilsink. A gilsink removes gil from the economy. If you buy consumables like oils and powders, gil is not removed from the economy. It is simply transfered to another player, with material being transfered in the opposite direction. And when you use an oil or a powder, you remove material from the economy, which causes inflation (however small) and acts opposite to what a gilsink does (i.e. causes deflation).

Then we're not really talking about a gilsink at all. There's other reasons for this:

(1) System Limitations and Design - Dyanmis was created before the instancing trend really took off big. They didn't want city zones lagged up and filled with players waiting to get in Dynamis all the time. The cost keeps people at bay.

(2) Prevention of RMT and Player Explotation - RMT would dominate these zones for their own gain were the restrictions not so rigid. Normal players would hardly ever get in. And on the player side, it would be spammed by many to what could be considered an unhealthy extreme.

(3) Behavior Modification - MMORPGs are addictive. I think more and more that game designers realize this. Just saying "endgame" sets off Pavlov's dog in the MMORPG community. A lab rat is given two panels to press - one lets him drink water, the other shocks him. The cost to enter Limbus/Dyna is also intended to be a shock. If you have to spend lots of gil to do a big event, you end up saving up for those big events, but not do them so often.

So, that considered, that's also a balance to the economy.

If we were able to spam this content as much as we wanted, the economy would deflated entirely and nothing would have value. Rares would not be rare, but commonplace. We'd all have vast amounts of gil worth nothing.

Perhaps this is also why SE made everything in sky sound, sight or magic aggro. Not even mages can get around sky on magic alone, they have to put gil into the economy to navigate the area. So we have to spend gil, which in time can discourage some players from going so often.

[Amele]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

the point is that people will do the event as much as they're allowed - as it is *right now* with the current limits on limbus/dynamis/etc ah fees, npc item costs, choco fees, incidental quest fees, etc. the economy is deflating (not to nothing yet but it's deflating at a very rapid pace by macroeconomics standards)

so I'm asking SE if they're looking into managing it a little bit more yet, like they have been for the last few years in the other direction.

[Karinya]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

A few small points:
1. AH fees aren't fixed. There is a fixed part, but it's normally insignificant. The variable part based on asking price is what really matters, especially for big ticket items. So when prices go down, so do AH fees.

2. If you're counting 150 coins/run, you're not including hundreds in the count. Where do you think they're going if not towards relics? And anyway, the main reason to do Dynamis is the *armors*; by design, very few people will ever finish a weapon. To say that the weapon costs 120 million gil neglects the hundreds of pieces of relic armor you'll get, not to mention hundreds or thousands of crafting materials and infinity cores. Oh, and the dynamis money you get *back* upon finishing a weapon (if it isn't just a rumor).

3. Predicting next year's prices assumes deflation continues at a constant rate. May I point out that a year or two ago you (or someone using the same methods) probably would have predicted this year's prices under the assumption that *inflation* would have continued at a constant rate - an assumption that would now be proved drastically wrong.

There is no valid grounds for assuming that the economy will continue going in the same direction for another year - *especially* since unlike real economies, this one can be effectively manipulated by SE.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

There is no valid grounds for assuming that the economy will continue going in the same direction for another year - *especially* since unlike real economies, this one can be effectively manipulated by SE.

I think SE's ability to impact the economy is valid grounds for assuming that the economy will continue going in the same direction for the next year. RMT bannings, which remove billions of gil (millions per server), have become quite regular in frequency. When SE makes adjustments which affect activities that bring gil into the system, it's usually to slow it down (fishing adjustments, rusty item synthesis changes, etc).

[Amele]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

1. you're right. AH fees aren't fixed, (the 100/400gil base in whitegate is noticeable on alot of sales now though) but destroy a fixed percentage of gross transactions, this is a smart gilsink and I'm ok if SE leaves it alone (however, SE did increase this once in the past to combat inflation, and increased it again with the higher rates in whitegate vs the old jeuno system).

2. 150 coins a run is including 100's. cities are on occasion 200+ yes, outlands you can get under 50 if it's a bad night (even if you win).

if you coin farm the hell out of sandy or bastok you might get to 300. I arrived at 150 because that's the actual average number of coins a real dynamis ls (my ls) gets per run over a two year period (we exclude dreamlands from the calculations) this is including 100's. this is including outlands farm runs and wins. this is excluding the incidental value of AF in the same way that people who estimate the cost of a brutal earring exclude AF+1 craft materials - because they're unrelated except for dropping in the same zone. no one in their right mind would provide all AF drops to a sponsor in addition to currency, so as far as that sponsor is concerned, AF doesn't have a value in terms of reducing the cost he's paying for that relic. (since he's effectively selling them 'for free' to anyone who helps him farm the zones). the sum of the crafting materials and relic cores that drops *might* exceed 50k on the run if you're lucky, also pretty easy to discount (and often free fall items as well) although if you were to sole lot them as well for every single run you would eventually amass 600k.

if you did just the lower three cities for all your currency, you could probably make it in about 90 runs - but you'll have a very high turnover rate on 'helpers' if you do just windy, sandy, bastok for 8 months.

(you do get currency back, it's 3000, whether or not you can get a loan from someone to finish it is another story.) if you get the loan it's 100 million to finish a relic (this is in fact, about how much our last upgrader paid to finish the currency for mandau)

3. the U.S. Mint, Treasury Department, and Federal Reserve would like to have a word with you. but to address the main thrust of your point about predictions, I did in fact make a similar prediction in early 2006 that inflation would continue for at least the foreseeable future (until there was enough of the Reserved gil in circulation and SE introduced enough sinks to reach a new equilibrium - during the time SE was introducing many new sinks, limbus, cop dynamis, the subligar desynths, additional items were for sale on new npcs, choco prices got toyed with, etc) eventually leveling out at a higher plateau (I was expecting the average +1 SH/Haub to be about 80 Million, with certain -1 cursed pieces being potentially 500Million.)

I was apparently off by at least a factor of 10, because SE took action - I applaud it. now the pendulum is swinging the other way and it's time for SE to take action again, although I suspect it will wait until SE feels that they've completed their current task of reducing RMT presence.

[Sevv]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

Oh, and the dynamis money you get *back* upon finishing a weapon (if it isn't just a rumor).

You get some of it back not all of it. you get 30 One Hundred of X currency(what ever your last stage was)

[Darkages]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

i think my brain just imploded from all this math......poor brain

[DR2D2]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

It's apperant that the way SE intends on beating rmt's is to de-value everything to the point that no-one will need rmt's. The problem SE if finding is that humans will look towards the easy way out more often than not. Look for the decreasing prices(non npc) to continue until LOTR-online comes out(and all the rmt's switch to pick up new customers)

[luisa]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

just wanted to say that i love the fact that a s.h cost 530k instead of 5 mil, i love the fact that a hauby cost 800k instead of 2 mil. All im saying is that is e-zier to buy things now than what it was back then, people need to stop being greedy and stop trying to bring up prices, i may have miss understood this thread but i just want to say that i love paying 30k for an item instead of 300k or even 1 mil, what ever s.e did i like it and i dont disagree with their plans.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

just wanted to say that i love the fact that a s.h cost 530k instead of 5 mil, i love the fact that a hauby cost 800k instead of 2 mil. All im saying is that is e-zier to buy things now than what it was back then, people need to stop being greedy and stop trying to bring up prices, i may have miss understood this thread but i just want to say that i love paying 30k for an item instead of 300k or even 1 mil, what ever s.e did i like it and i dont disagree with their plans.

Oh lord.

[Karinya]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

She's got a point though. For new players especially, a significant part of their income can come from NPC sources (beastmen, quest rewards, rank ups) and/or the small items that haven't moved much in price (goblin gear, silk, etc.), which makes deflation a big win. It's a lot less stacks of tiger fangs to afford that centurion's sword or dark staff now than it used to be.

The main losers from deflation are the ones who *spend* lots of gil on NPC sources and make most of their income from the AH/bazaars - which is primarily high level players doing a lot of Dynamis/Limbus.

I'd rather have a game that is easier on newbies and harder on more advanced players than the reverse, even when I *am* one of the more advanced players. The growth of the gil supply devalued fixed sources of gil to an excessive degree (IMO), which made the game unreasonably harsh for newbies.

[little ninja]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

She's got a point though. For new players especially, a significant part of their income can come from NPC sources (beastmen, quest rewards, rank ups) and/or the small items that haven't moved much in price (goblin gear, silk, etc.), which makes deflation a big win. It's a lot less stacks of tiger fangs to afford that centurion's sword or dark staff now than it used to be.
The main losers from deflation are the ones who *spend* lots of gil on NPC sources and make most of their income from the AH/bazaars - which is primarily high level players doing a lot of Dynamis/Limbus.
I'd rather have a game that is easier on newbies and harder on more advanced players than the reverse, even when I *am* one of the more advanced players. The growth of the gil supply devalued fixed sources of gil to an excessive degree (IMO), which made the game unreasonably harsh for newbies.

For some high lvlers by now it all equals out. As prices come down, SO do most everything. So its still the same thing. 15mil or 850k. Your still doing the same amount of seal runs. The same amount of farming runs. Same amount of crafting to get what you want. It does do like you said. It allows more Beastmen/Npcs gil to become available in the economy, But is this what S.E really wants ?

[DR2D2]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

She's got a point though. For new players especially, a significant part of their income can come from NPC sources (beastmen, quest rewards, rank ups) and/or the small items that haven't moved much in price (goblin gear, silk, etc.), which makes deflation a big win. It's a lot less stacks of tiger fangs to afford that centurion's sword or dark staff now than it used to be.

The main losers from deflation are the ones who *spend* lots of gil on NPC sources and make most of their income from the AH/bazaars - which is primarily high level players doing a lot of Dynamis/Limbus.

I'd rather have a game that is easier on newbies and harder on more advanced players than the reverse, even when I *am* one of the more advanced players. The growth of the gil supply devalued fixed sources of gil to an excessive degree (IMO), which made the game unreasonably harsh for newbies.

The main problem with this line of thinking is that it doesn't take into account that many items in the game are only available through crafting(shade gear comes to mind unless my info is wrong). When you decrease the prices of crafted items, but keep the price of the supplies stable, you start causes crafted products to be sold at a loss. Once this happens, you start having people stop making these items. Now, I realize this will not happen all at once, but if it crafted items continue to sell at a loss then the supply will eventually run out, or raise to a point where you have inflation, or worse yet, an increase in rmt activities(as players will figure it is a lot easier to buy gill than to take xhrs to try to farm up enough gill).

[little ninja]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

The main problem with this line of thinking is that it doesn't take into account that many items in the game are only available through crafting(shade gear comes to mind unless my info is wrong). When you decrease the prices of crafted items, but keep the price of the supplies stable, you start causes crafted products to be sold at a loss. Once this happens, you start having people stop making these items. Now, I realize this will not happen all at once, but if it crafted items continue to sell at a loss then the supply will eventually run out, or raise to a point where you have inflation, or worse yet, an increase in rmt activities(as players will figure it is a lot easier to buy gill than to take xhrs to try to farm up enough gill).

Naa the high lvl crafters will still make a loss to try to get the holy grail. The +1 items. Since Na launch for me. Archer rings were always 100-300k more then the crafted version Sniper rings. But if they could get a Sniper ring +1 thats a 5mil profit. Of course this is only for certain gear though but not all of it. The ones who are really effected in the crafting game are the teir1 or teir2 people. Since they try to make there money on a much smaller chance at a HQ.