Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

[Vyuru]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

but here's an example using an LSBank. Shining Cloth (for the longest time) was 10 million (I don't remember what it was during IGE christmas, probably 15-20 million) a nice pull when you could get kirin to drop it. sold, this funded LS dynamis for 5 weeks.

today, that same shining cloth now funds 1 LS dynamis run.

my same point stands regardless of whether we're talking personally financed runs or ls financed runs: they're 10x what they used to be, so adjust the prices on hourglass and cosmo-cleanse a little. (maybe say, 250k dynamis and 25k limbus) this will help curb inflation and perhaps re-interest the player community in events that are beginning to be viewed as 'expensive'.

Allright, here you have steered away from general deflation and are now into the, once valuable items now cost less zone. SE should NOT adjust NPC costs due to what was once a really valuable item/s dropping in price.

This is vastly different from a general deflation, where everything drops in price.

And well, if you don't like the player economy, I can think of a handful of crafting recipes that sell for 5k+ to NPCs. Do some research and adjust, because now your arguements are sounding like what you used to do for easy gil takes too long now for not enough rewards.

Well you kinda had to expect that to happen when Kirin went from blm/rng/smn ONRY fights to throw more merited warriors at him and TP burn him to death.

And it's here that I'm gonna say something:

There are a number of mobs that can be farmed for good gil. I can think of at least one repeatable quest, that if done with about 18 people, ballpark figure, and with some organization, once could have yielded 100k+ per hour. PER HOUR, and that is a lower bounds estimate. And that was a QUEST, did people do it? Nope, too lazy and they refused to:

1) Think outside the box
2) Consider that there might be ways to gain large amounts of money besides HNM
3) Refused to put more effort into making gil

I can think of a number of synths that sell for 5k+ to NPCs, I can think of a number of equipment that a LS could farm the ingredients for, craft, and sell on the AH for 250k+, if they only stopped and thought about it.

Would it take awhile? Probably. Would it take effort? Heck yeah and I'm not talking about the easy effort of most lame HNM fights nowadays, that is not effort.

But the thing that kinda gets to me is that I can, without even researching this and looking into it indepth, think of about 6 surefire easy ways to make 100k+ per hour with a small group of people, and I can think of another 8 possibilities, and another 4 ideas with potential.

When you consider the amount of people in a typical endgame Dynamis/Limbus/HNM/Salvage LS, it would be trivial to set a LS farming night to fund LS events.

[Amele]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

Allright, here you have steered away from general deflation and are now into the, once valuable items now cost less zone. SE should NOT adjust NPC costs due to what was once a really valuable item/s dropping in price.

This is vastly different from a general deflation, where everything drops in price.

And well, if you don't like the player economy, I can think of a handful of crafting recipes that sell for 5k+ to NPCs. Do some research and adjust, because now your arguements are sounding like what you used to do for easy gil takes too long now for not enough rewards.

of the three big craftable money drops (V.Claw, D.Ingot, S.Cloth) I picked the one that had deflated least on my server. this is pretty clearly the best example I can provide of an item that isn't being affected by much other than general deflation. (contrast Thief knife or V.claw, the former because it's suddenly a 100% drop, and the latter because SH has been outclassed by at least one piece on just about every job that can wear it in the last year and a half or so.)

as for the ad hominem? I'm making 250k/wk profit with two hours a week of work (plus ah sale time). given that that's 125k/hr and leaves me quite free to do whatever I want 7 nights a week, I think you might want to look elsewhere for 'bottom fell out of your industry' comments.

I see a server economy where what used to be 1million is now 100k, but the price of things that used to be 1 million from an npc are still 1 million. this is my issue: SE nerfed enough gil-sources and introduced enough gil-sinks that the server economies have gone through a -year- of continuous deflation. SE took action when the economy approached 5x the 2004 baseline. we're now beyond 1/5x the 2004 baseline. so I don't see why this seems to be seen as such a heretical concept?

and you're right, there are still ways to make gil and in sufficient quantity to fund endgame activities, if people cooperate. (it is in fact still possible to use the currency your own ls makes in doing dynamis to fund dynamis still, there are ls's doing that now.) it's not the particulars that I consider the issue here, - although it has gotten to the point in this thread where everything has derailed into particulars (something I had been trying to avoid in the initial post)

this thread has gotten rather sidetracked: basically, I think there's a problem when a game that SE has stated multiple times was supposed to use a player based economy starts to head to a point where the best ways to make gil are to spam bubbly bernie (or w/e other quest someone feels like mentioning) rather than participate in the player economy.

and if 100k/hr is now the benchmark for 'good gil/hr' then we're still looking at 1/10th of the economy at the introduction point for limbus, since, at that time, it was quite simple to make 1mil/hr for similar effort.

[little ninja]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

SE should NOT adjust NPC costs due to what was once a really valuable item/s dropping in price.

Well no they shouldn't. But they should evaluate the economy cross all servers an adjust prices. Seriously, I mean if S.E feels the need to tinker an fuck with everything else. Why not adjust prices to the current market? They felt the need to stick their noses in when fishing was being sold to vendors. Stuck their nose when rusties were being sold to vendors. They felt the need to fart around with the chicabo prices, A.H prices an so on.

[Aeni]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

Allright, here you have steered away from general deflation and are now into the, once valuable items now cost less zone. SE should NOT adjust NPC costs due to what was once a really valuable item/s dropping in price.

You're totally missing the point here.

What the question is, if SE will adjust certain parts of the game that seems to not have adjusted with the general deflation.

An example is this.

Say that getting into an event, every 72 hours, cost you and your affiliates X gil. The fee is then broken up amongst the participants to this event (X/W, where W is the number of participants in this event)

At the conclusion of the event, whatever gil was made from the mobs as well as items sold to the market should theoretically cover the costs of the entry fee. This is an assumption.

Now, however, what if the economy has deflated ... by a lot? The items that are sold to the market now becomes less valuable. You are limited to the number of items that can drop in this event. Since the event is timed, theoretically it is not feasible to lengthen the duration of the event to make up for the losses.

The COST of the entry is STATIC. Yet the value of the rewards are not. Soon, you will have a difficult time maintaining enough runs a week to keep the interest of participants at a high enough level. As the economy deflates even more, the entry fee, while static, continues to grow excessively expensive.

If you look at it that way, then you realize that there is a need for SE to step in and address this specific issue. The only thing I can see is just getting rid of the entry fee altogether, but replacing it with an attunement system which either requires a weekly repeating of quests/missions to obtain (Kind of like getting a signet that lasts for the duration of the event scheduled) or a more permanent (Key Item) attunement.

SE can work out a system that would provide a solution without disturbing the economy.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

You're totally missing the point here.

What the question is, if SE will adjust certain parts of the game that seems to not have adjusted with the general deflation.

An example is this.

Say that getting into an event, every 72 hours, cost you and your affiliates X gil. The fee is then broken up amongst the participants to this event (X/W, where W is the number of participants in this event).... blah blah blah

Every 72 hours.

One million gil.

Now, show me the part where SE makes you spend one million gil every 72 hours.

I can't see where that part is. Methinks you could wait til you have another million gil.

If you're the leader of a Dynamis shell and you've promised there will be two runs each week, I think that's your problem. We have social linkshells that can do Dynamis now, Limbus can commonly be done within a social past certain points. They don't have to go at every window of opportunity and they don't.

Times have changed and the economy has changed to reflect that. Unless the next expansion and ToA's endgame content are more hardcore than anything that came before in CoP, I can't see things changing much from here.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

If you're the leader of a Dynamis shell and you've promised there will be two runs each week, I think that's your problem

Newsflash: Our problems are also SE's problems! That's why they release content and fixes to things that bother us. GASP!

[Amele]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

Every 72 hours.
One million gil.

Now, show me the part where SE makes you spend one million gil every 72 hours.
I can't see where that part is. Methinks you could wait til you have another million gil.
If you're the leader of a Dynamis shell and you've promised there will be two runs each week, I think that's your problem. We have social linkshells that can do Dynamis now, Limbus can commonly be done within a social past certain points. They don't have to go at every window of opportunity and they don't.
Times have changed and the economy has changed to reflect that. Unless the next expansion and ToA's endgame content are more hardcore than anything that came before in CoP, I can't see things changing much from here.

every time someone runs dynamis, 1 million gil is destroyed. this is the point of a gil-sink, to destroy gil.

a small disclaimer: I don't mean to imply that everyone *should* dynamis every 3 days. that's silly. do it as often as you feel interested in the content. the point I'm trying to make is that groups should be able to easily afford to do the content every 3 days.

the mere fact that we're talking about *not* being able to afford it as frequently as SE lets us enter (notice how the new ToAU content equivalent to dynamis (salvage) can be done every day of the week, provided you meet the entry requirements: says to me that SE set the three day limit to control the gil-sink strength) says that the gil-sink is no longer in sync with the rate that gil is entering the game. This is also the case with limbus. (ah fees are another category all together, but that more and more bazaars are out in rolanberry or al zhabi these days should provide some clue to how these are starting to be a little pricey compared to profit margins too).

so, SE should sync it back up. either by adjusting how much gil enters the economy, or adjusting the price of the gil-sink(s). that are out of sync.

[Vyuru]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

SE nerfed enough gil-sources and introduced enough gil-sinks that the server economies have gone through a -year- of continuous deflation.

This I'd have to disagree with. SE went from banning RMT from only once a year, to every six months, and recently every 2-3 months. Each time they got rid of billions of gil, it would be interesting to see just how much gil they banned over the course of the past year or two, I'll have to add it up.

Yes, nerfing making gil and bringing in gil sinks helped, but I think it's the banning of rmt that really brought about the deflation. You can see it every single time that RMT are banned, prices drop drastically. Every time RMT have a big gil sale, prices jump drastically. The presence and absence of RMT makes a far bigger and more immediate impact than SE adjusting things.

They felt the need to stick their noses in when fishing was being sold to vendors. Stuck their nose when rusties were being sold to vendors.

But what was really happening here? Those activities were being exploited, by a ton of people and not just gil sellers, to make massive amounts of gil. There have been several times where SE has done nothing until that activity was being exploited.

Now, however, what if the economy has deflated ... by a lot? The items that are sold to the market now becomes less valuable. You are limited to the number of items that can drop in this event. Since the event is timed, theoretically it is not feasible to lengthen the duration of the event to make up for the losses.

You are correct on the deflation aspect of it, but I think you have to consider the supply/demand for dynamis currency as well. Also, these dynamis shells are quite often HNM LS that do dynamis, and use the HNM proceeds to fund their runs. If they want to sell their currency they can afford to sell it for cheaper than a dynamis shell that uses the currency to fund dynamis runs.

(notice how the new ToAU content equivalent to dynamis (salvage) can be done every day of the week, provided you meet the entry requirements

This is flawed, find me the Assault that rewards 2k Assault points. The most I have heard of anyone getting is 1,600 AP. You get one Assault tag per day, so at best you can get 3,600 AP every two days, so you can only do Salvage every two days, unless the total number of AP you have rolls around so that you have 2k AP left over for the next day.

So basically we have Salvage, which can be done every two days, and costs 2k AP to enter, and we have Dynamis, which can be done every three days, and costs 1million to enter.

but that more and more bazaars are out in rolanberry or al zhabi these days should provide some clue to how these are starting to be a little pricey compared to profit margins too).

The reason those bazaars are there is not strictly because of AH taxes, it is because the people do not have to worry about people undercutting them on the AH, and they do not want to have to worry about an item not selling, having to run to the mog house, get it out of the delivery box, and placing it up on the AH again. I wouldn't think that's a problem, but you'd be amazed at what some people complain about.

Go and do a price check, 90% of the time the prices of the people out bazaaring are higher than the prices on the AH. This to me, implies that they are not worried about AH fees and that they are hoping that they can rip off some unsuspecting person.

[Amele]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

This I'd have to disagree with. SE went from banning RMT from only once a year, to every six months, and recently every 2-3 months. Each time they got rid of billions of gil, it would be interesting to see just how much gil they banned over the course of the past year or two, I'll have to add it up.

the last ban (averaged over all servers) would not fund even two weeks of endgame content at the rate that my server is currently running the content (assuming JP do it about as frequently as NA) there are seven active DLS and 8 active limbus groups that I'm aware of, in NA time, that makes 14 and 16 assuming JP are similar (I have no basis for this other than historic levels of NA/JP players on my server) -> 113.6 million gil every two weeks. (the last ban was ~100Million gil per server) this is excluding AH fees (~2% of the gross domestic product of the player economy) in estimating gil destroyed. Every ban (except the first) was a drop in the bucket comparatively.

Yes, nerfing making gil and bringing in gil sinks helped, but I think it's the banning of rmt that really brought about the deflation. You can see it every single time that RMT are banned, prices drop drastically. Every time RMT have a big gil sale, prices jump drastically. The presence and absence of RMT makes a far bigger and more immediate impact than SE adjusting things.

perception. with the possible exception of 'IGE christmas' (which I would still be willing to contend had more to do with an item supply shortage combined with IGE attempting to offload supplies because of the wind of a crackdown coming (I'd been hearing rumors of SE gilseller monitoring since july 2005). so yeah, gil prices contributed, but they didn't 'cause' it.) again as pointed out: the later bannings have all been drops in the bucket compared to the 'nominal' gil destruction rate.

This is flawed, find me the Assault that rewards 2k Assault points. The most I have heard of anyone getting is 1,600 AP. You get one Assault tag per day, so at best you can get 3,600 AP every two days, so you can only do Salvage every two days, unless the total number of AP you have rolls around so that you have 2k AP left over for the next day. So basically we have Salvage, which can be done every two days, and costs 2k AP to enter, and we have Dynamis, which can be done every three days, and costs 1million to enter.

except that we've been able to accumulate AP for over a year, and just to rank to CS requires a minimum of 40,000 assault points (given the trend to repeat the content, CS could take up to 200,000 assault points). so we're looking at people that could potentially run salvage 7 days a week for a month straight (or longer) before having to consider using tags again. and 3,600-> 1.5 days per salvage, so twice as frequently as dynamis. it also takes under an hour to accumulate this 3,600 AP.

The reason those bazaars are there is not strictly because of AH taxes, it is because the people do not have to worry about people undercutting them on the AH, and they do not want to have to worry about an item not selling, having to run to the mog house, get it out of the delivery box, and placing it up on the AH again. I wouldn't think that's a problem, but you'd be amazed at what some people complain about.
Go and do a price check, 90% of the time the prices of the people out bazaaring are higher than the prices on the AH. This to me, implies that they are not worried about AH fees and that they are hoping that they can rip off some unsuspecting person.

I do check regularly, and yes, you're right the prices are frequently higher. 90%? hardly. it's also a very short walk from rolanberry to jeuno AH, the days of ripping off unsuspecting new players in windurst is long over.
for that matter, check the actual margins on those goods next time you think it's someone trying to rip someone else off: I'd be willing to be the majority of the time it's just to get profit above the 2-5% margin mark.

[Vyuru]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

check the actual margins on those goods next time you think it's someone trying to rip someone else off: I'd be willing to be the majority of the time it's just to get profit above the 2-5% margin mark.

Only marking off the big ticket items, and items that can be sold on the AH.

Pcharm: 5.4million instead of the AH's 2.5mil
Hauby: 750,000 AH: 420,000
Bombcore: 100,000 AH: 90,000
Chivalrous Chain: 170,000 AH: 180,000ish
Potent Belt: 220,000 AH: 240,000ish
Viking Axe: 60,000 AH: 50,000
Vclaw: 600,000 AH:400,000
Shining Cloth: 2,000,000 AH: 1,300,000
Damascene Cloth: 550,000 AH: 360,000
Damascus Ingot: 450,000 AH: 400,000

While some are at or below price, the majority of these are well above 50% of what the AH is charging, and the majority of these items are on the AH.

except that we've been able to accumulate AP for over a year

Well,

1) You have been able to accumulate AP for over a year, and you expect me to believe that people have not spent any of those AP?

2) I hear a ton of grumbling about Assaults, I seriously doubt that people would go out and do them just for gathering AP.

Either they are saving AP for items they want, or they are helping their friends do it and spending their AP for Assault items to sell, such as the Chivalrous Chain, Potent Belt, rings, earrings, etc.

Also, when was Assault first introduced and when was Salvage first introduced? I'm curious to know the time difference and just how long people would thought of saving points for Salvage.

perception. with the possible exception of 'IGE christmas' (which I would still be willing to contend had more to do with an item supply shortage combined with IGE attempting to offload supplies because of the wind of a crackdown coming (I'd been hearing rumors of SE gilseller monitoring since july 2005). so yeah, gil prices contributed, but they didn't 'cause' it.)

I'd disagree, I had made it a habit of comparing the game's economy with IGE announcements, and if they raised or lowered the price of gil. And even when they announced reduced prices and raised the price of gil. I think it was rather evident that the RMT were affecting things more than SE's was.

I'm not denying that there is deflation, but I don't think it is as bad as you are making it out to be. You don't have to do Dynamis/Limbus every opportunity you get, which is what this thread seems to be about. Those are the only seriously high NPC prices, with a few armor exceptions, you even said yourself you can make 250k in 2 hours, good for you, that's 1/4 of a Dynamis run there, get the other 63 members of your Dynamis shell to do something productive for 2 hours and you'll have all the gil you need.

Quite frankly, the more this thread goes it seems to me that this is about Dynamis and Limbus, and I suspect, the fact that one person by theirself cannot make 1 million as easily as they once could have. That is not bad, that is not horrible deflation. Now you may need to work with other people to get that kind of cash flow and get organised. Maybe there will not be as many Dynamis runs where one member out of the 64 pays the costs for the other 63 members, which is how all of the old Dynamis shells are run, only the really new ones sell the currency to fund more Dynamis runs, but again, that is not a bad thing.

[Vyuru]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

Something I just thought of that I don't think I have seen mentioned so far.

Most of this talk has been about how it's harder to work up the cash for the Dynamis/Limbus fees than it was awhile ago. It seems the most popular example is that the currency has devalued enough that it can sometimes be hit or miss as to getting enough currency to fund the run, especially in say, the outland Dynamis areas.

What I don't think has been mentioned are the rare/ex items that can be obtained from these events.

How can you put a value on them? They can't be sold, well, reasonably sold that is, most have a crappy drop rate.

Amele mentioned earlier that a ninja would be sure to trade in his Scorpion Harness for a Koga Chainmail, using this as a base comparison you could say that getting a Koga Chainmail is like getting a 400,000 piece of equipment, possibly more since the SH seems inferior to the Koga Chainmail IMO.

Now of course that is subjective for each job, but you know if people could sell these on the AH that they would be expensive. Sure, you could sell lotting rights to this stuff, but I don't think many people would spend alot of money to join a Dynamis group just in the off chance the item they want may drop, although with a few rules in place I could see where this might work.

And the same goes for the rare/ex items needed to upgrade Relic Weapons, or the relatively new relic accessories, the Wyrm Belt, Warrior's Stone, and Koga Sarashi in particular look godly, honestly I'd pay a few million just for the Wyrm Belt alone.

[Aeni]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

Every 72 hours.

One million gil.

Now, show me the part where SE makes you spend one million gil every 72 hours.

And to counter that, show me where SE says that you shouldn't be able to do these runs every 72 hours, like clockwork. For some people, they want to be able to get either their relics upgraded as their priority and for others, they want their hands on an artifact set.

The reality is that unless you put in some time into this, you're not getting much out if it. Having an option to go at the pace you want is what some people have asked for. NO ONE IS ASKING SE to hand out rewards easily. That's just silly. However, archaic parts of the system that have not changed to reflect the current issues of end game is just as silly.

[Aeni]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

What I don't think has been mentioned are the rare/ex items that can be obtained from these events.

You're right, you can't place a value on a rare/ex item. However, due to the way entry for these "exclusive" areas work immediately forces a value to be placed on the whole run and subsequently, placing value on the drops themselves. Some LS uses DKP and others use a more loose system based on trust for priorities with rolling for an item.

I'm currently in WoW and there's obviously nothing similar to FFXI's entry fees to instances like Dynamis. There is time restriction, which is the same (for obvious reasons) but not any monetary-based restriction for these large scale events. I feel that the way the event works should be restriction enough (Getting the adequate number of members to participate and of the right job make up and skill level) and there should not be additional restrictions put into place. In fact, some of the RMT problems of the past would have to be blamed on this kind of monetary restriction (Subtley forcing some players to buy gil online in order to sponsor their own or their LS' runs)

[John Doe III]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

I wonder where all the tax money goes from FFXI? SE should start holding lotterys........

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Is SE planning to make any adjustments to the gilsources and gilsinks in game?

I don't really understand the big fuss regarding gil sinks.

If a million is too much for Dynamis twice a week, do it less often. It's not like there aren't alternatives for Lv.75's. If fewer people do Dynamis, then the drops from the runs would become more scarce, and hence more valuable--inflationary pressure to counter the deflation.

A new equilibrium would be established.

Changing the gil sink values merely nudges the equilibrium around slightly. Keep in mind the majority of economic trasnactions are player to player (if assisted by AH), not player to NPC--tweaking NPC gil source/sink is likely to have less effect on the economy than many posters may have imagined.

* * *

Of course, if the concern isn't about the economy, but the wallet of Dynamis LS members, that's a different discussion. In that case, yes, lowering the fee to 0 would help a lot--I'll bet S-E isn't interested in helping that way, though.