Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

[eticket109]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Wow... we've got a winner on here when posters like Mhurron, OMG and Legal are made to look like nice guys in comparison. lol

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Lol. That's perfectly fine.
I don't mind being the "bad guy" (or Marie Antoinette for that matter).

Legal Fish is correct though. It is a shame that there's no real
place for a decent vit/def build anymore, as blood tanking is
undeniably more fun. If SE fixed this, I would applaud them,
but for the time being "blinking" is just that much better.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Wow... we've got a winner on here when posters like Mhurron, OMG and Legal are made to look like nice guys in comparison. lol

Eh, I'm just amazed people get this worked up about about endgame. This isn't really an endgame-only forum, which is why I actually prefer this and smaller sites over Alla, BG and KI. Most of those people fail to look at the bigger picture.

And I'm amused that people fail to recall that there was a time when Kirin and Vrtra were kited and still actually are depending on the jobs available. There was a time at endgame where RNGs and BLMs were turned to do all the damage and people were all lolWAR, lolMNK and lolDRK. These NMs were not always TP burned. Many endgame LSes only change their tune when SE forces them into it.

You want endgame tanking to be fixed? I think them having a place in high-level EXP/merit is the first thing that should be fixed, I think tanking needs to be diversified a bit more. It should not boil down to two classes totally boxed into one or two subjobs in EXP and Endgame. We have another tank class, it was the FIRST tank class and PLD and NIN would be nothing without it for most of the game.

The first tank should not be obselete at all and it wasn't NIN that did it - it was lazy, weak players. Talk all you want about efficient EXP, talk all you want about having a preference, there was a time where the jobs you love so much now you were totally willing to give the shaft on invites. That's a hypocrisy that's very evident to me.

[Nuriko]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

I guess I'm one of the gimped players ... I only have about 20k gil.

Of course, this might have something to do with my high level being 30, but so what ... I'm STILL one of the gimped players.

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Omgwtfbbqkitten
You miss the time when BLMs and RNGs were the only DDs
allowed to on the HNM scene?
I'd think opening the playingfield to more jobs was a good thing...

Tanking has been diversified too...
PLDs packing DD-gear didn't happen back in 2004.

The past wasn't as great as you make it out to be.
Spending an hour at every Kirin meant that very few people
ever got their precious Osode. Also, with more and more HNM/SkyLS' popping up,
faster killrate means more linkshells actually get their turn.
Showing up to Kirin only to have to wait for an hour while another LS
killed him was *not* fun. Waiting 5 minutes? That's fine.

WARs can still tank. You just have to find a willing WAR.
Is it the best choice? No. Does it work? Yes, it can.
So you go right ahead and get your WARs to tank.
Personally I wouldn't do it, because in most circumstances
it would slow us down, but you don't care much for effeciency anyways.
Just remember that if you opt for "fun" over "effeciency" you're also
wasting the time of the people you're playing with.
If your party is fine with a little less EXP/Hour - go for it.

Times change.
In the past, people would write alot of letters to eachother.
Then they stopped doing that, because the phone was
so much more effecient.
There was nothing wrong with writing letters,
it just didn't work as well as making a phonecall.

Nuriko
Yeah, you probably are gimped.
If it matters to you, go out and fix it.
Farm, BCNM, Craft... do whatever.
It's not hard to remedy.
However, if you don't care, that's your choice.
I honestly don't care if other people are gimped, as long as they
aren't directly slowing me downor hurting me directly, so I try not
to deal with gimps.
Everyone's gotta have fun with the game whichever way they want though,
so if someone doesn't care about having top gear - fine.
None of my business. That's their choice.
Not partying with gimps, or accepting their presence at HNMs - that's my choice.

[little ninja]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Omgwtfbbqkitten
You miss the time when BLMs and RNGs were the only DDs
allowed to on the HNM scene

I'd think opening the playing field to more jobs was a good thing...
Tanking has been diversified too...
PLDs packing DD-gear didn't happen back in 2004.

WARs can still tank. You just have to find a willing WAR.
Is it the best choice? No. Does it work? Yes, it can.
So you go right ahead and get your WARs to tank.
Personally I wouldn't do it, because in most circumstances
it would slow us down, but you don't care much for effeciency anyways.
Just remember that if you opt for "fun" over "effeciency" you're also
wasting the time of the people you're playing with.
If your party is fine with a little less EXP/Hour - go for it.
Times change.
[/i]

When my LS used to do kirin. It was just Blm, Rngs, Smn. The rest of the ls went up there to take out the summons. After that we sat around to bail them out if tey got in trouble. I remember one of our ls's rule was we used to have to help them cap exp. This was back before merits. So i sat around alot of nights helping them get exp back an i was maxed..

Were you around back in 04? It was a cruel world for a Pld who tried to be a DD. Most players fliped out an booted them from the party because they wore damage gear, an swung a great sword..

Its a flaw with this game. So many people want the most exp in the sortest amount of time. An i can't blame them. But in the end it does effect job prefrence. Tp burn leaves out a lot of jobs, arrow burns left out a lot of people. certain jobs are more wanted then others.

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

When my LS used to do kirin. It was just Blm, Rngs, Smn. The rest of the ls went up there to take out the summons. After that we sat around to bail them out if tey got in trouble. I remember one of our ls's rule was we used to have to help them cap exp. This was back before merits. So i sat around alot of nights helping them get exp back an i was maxed..

Were you around back in 04? It was a cruel world for a Pld who tried to be a DD. Most players fliped out an booted them from the party because they wore damage gear, an swung a great sword..

Its a flaw with this game. So many people want the most exp in the sortest amount of time. An i can't blame them. But in the end it does effect job prefrence. Tp burn leaves out a lot of jobs, arrow burns left out a lot of people. certain jobs are more wanted then others.

Wait, what?
Someone's actually agreeing with me now?
This can't be true. Lol.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

You miss the time when BLMs and RNGs were the only DDs
allowed to on the HNM scene?
I'd think opening the playingfield to more jobs was a good thing...

You missed the point.

I was stating that endgame strategies once were and, to some extent, still are weak strategies. SE had to nerf RNG to get endgame and EXP PTs off of arrowburns. They did it so tons of dissatisfied DDs could get 75 and a spot in endgame. SE had to force the change. Unfortunately they took it too far, but most of that has been resolved now.

SE also had to tell players how to beat AV before they would do so legitimately. lolWall of Justice.

Tanking has been diversified too...
PLDs packing DD-gear didn't happen back in 2004.

Uh, that's nice and all, but we still only have two jobs that people consider tanks. That doesn't exactly solve the issue of WAR not being allowed to use/avoiding thier ability to tank.

WARs can still tank. You just have to find a willing WAR.
Is it the best choice? No. Does it work? Yes, it can.
So you go right ahead and get your WARs to tank.
Personally I wouldn't do it, because in most circumstances
it would slow us down, but you don't care much for effeciency anyways.
Just remember that if you opt for "fun" over "effeciency" you're also
wasting the time of the people you're playing with.
If your party is fine with a little less EXP/Hour - go for it.

You just said you thought job diversification was a good thing, yet you advocate the same "efficiency" that limits every job's potential and limits the pool of jobs that get invited at EXP level as well as endgame.

I'm sure the THFs and BLMs you turn to when you need the drop or kill really appreciate those lack of invites in the 50s. Just getting invited to main alliance for drop rate, oh yeah, that's peachy. Manaburn the HNM? WTH were you at level 55+ when that BLM wanted to PT?

That might be efficient for you, but can't you also see the damage you do to the other parts of the game as a result? Also, what is efficient for you seems to adapt just like RMT do when SE changes something. You go back to the drawing board and find your new way, your new golden-boy job, your easy way out.

It might be efficient, but that doesn't change the fact its weak strategy; or that the strategy and easily be changed if what you're taking advantage of is crippled or removed.

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

You missed the point.

I was stating that endgame strategies once were and, to some extent, still are weak strategies. SE had to nerf RNG to get endgame and EXP PTs off of arrowburns. They did it so tons of dissatisfied DDs could get 75 and a spot in endgame. SE had to force the change. Unfortunately they took it too far, but most of that has been resolved now.

SE also had to tell players how to beat AV before they would do so legitimately. lolWall of Justice.

Like you said, most of it has been resolved, so get over it. O_o

Uh, that's nice and all, but we still only have two jobs that people consider tanks. That doesn't exactly solve the issue of WAR not being allowed to use/avoiding thier ability to tank.

If the WAR doesn't want to tank, I'm not gonna force him.
I already said that WAR tanks are viable, so you
go out and get them to tank if you want to.
I don't really care one way or the other.

You just said you thought job diversification was a good thing, yet you advocate the same "efficiency" that limits every job's potential and limits the pool of jobs that get invited at EXP level as well as endgame.

Well, opposed to using 4 jobs for everything endgame, as we used to do,
almost every job now has a place there (except lolPUP).
Why? Because it's effecient. Those two things do not have to contradict
eachother.

I'm sure the THFs and BLMs you turn to when you need the drop or kill really appreciate those lack of invites in the 50s. Just getting invited to main alliance for drop rate, oh yeah, that's peachy. Manaburn the HNM? WTH were you at level 55+ when that BLM wanted to PT?

I merit on PLD. That's the only 75 job I'm still using,
since I retired everything else.
It's not as if I get spammed with invites either.
In fact, most of the invites I get are from people who just
happen to know me, or have heard of me by reputation,
and know that I am able to hold my own in a TP Burn.
There's no way I'm gonna take responsibility for other people's
invite rates. We all had to fight our way through the grind
at some point. You're gonna blame me for SE making
THF useless against HNMs too now?

That might be efficient for you, but can't you also see the damage you do to the other parts of the game as a result? Also, what is efficient for you seems to adapt just like RMT do when SE changes something. You go back to the drawing board and find your new way, your new golden-boy job, your easy way out.

Well, I don't mind changing my strategies whenever SE comes up with a new fix.
It's part of the game too, and like I said, times change.
It's something I don't mind dealing with.
If you're gonna compare me to an RMT, just because I willingly
accept the changes to the game, and adapt accordingly, go ahead.

It might be efficient, but that doesn't change the fact its weak strategy; or that the strategy and easily be changed if what you're taking advantage of is crippled or removed.

Well, if they do cripple whatever strategy I'm currently using,
I'll just "go back to the drawing board and find another way".
I hardly see the problem - you're even admiting that it's effecient and
that it works.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Am I to think the point of view of the opposition is the following: "Rather than fix problems (BLM not being popular, Defense having a poor effect later into the game, ect) it is better to enhance things that don't aren't really problems (people preferring NIN and PLD over WAR as tanks). WAR is meant to be an all-around job, which high skill in almost every weapon. They are not meant to be the best tanks. SE always intended PLD to be the true tank in the game, and adapted to the player base to allow NIN to be the other one. MNK and SAM also seem to have some sort of role to fill as lesser tanks for much smaller things.

I think if you wanted to boost WAR's tanking ability, just give them "B" Shield Skill. That would be the best thing you could do with them and fits them fine. Most PLD tanking is dependent on Shields these days anyway. (I also think they should get B Bow Skill... just so that Aggressive Aim isn't such a dumb ability for them).

[Karinya]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

You completely missed what I just told LittleNinja about over-exaggurating
the money issue, didn't you?
Seriously, have you ever even tried tanking Vrtra?

Of course not. AFAIK, I've never even met anyone who has seen his name in red (other than people who tried the second Bahamut battle).

Do you want to take a poll to see which perspective represents (and is more useful to) the majority of FFXI players? I promise you, you will lose.

And what kind of an argument is this "99.9% of all players" thing you keep bringing up?

The truth. Most players - nearly all players - will never, ever be in a situation where your advice would be useful to them. I think they should know this, before they spend hundreds or thousands of hours raising the gil to follow that advice.

You can describe this any way you like, but it's true.

300M isn't an obsene amount either.

I think this pretty much speaks for itself. You may or may not be in the top 10 richest people on your server - with a server population in the tens of thousands. The amount of gil you're describing as "not obscene" is equal to or greater than the amount commonly found on RMTs' bank mules.

Engame linkshells are either elitists, or they are useless filler that only
serves to cause lag at HNMs by standing around wishing they were good enough
to actually do something there.

Or they don't go to those HNMs at all because they don't want to wait 3 hours to be outvoked by a hacker. I guess they're just not "good enough" to get claim.


You're so insulated from the real FFXI community that you literally don't comprehend their concerns. Maybe we should just agree to disagree: anyone who thinks that 300M is a "not obscene" amount of money can follow your advice, and anyone who thinks twice about spending 5M can follow mine. I'd be okay with that.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Well, with Legal Fish and Timian keep promoting the goodness of PLD DD, I give it a shot over the weekend, even though I don't have close to the equipment set Timian listed. =b

Didn't have a parser running (was late for static party), so the results are purely subjective.

We tried Puks with my PLD60 (VT to us) for the first time. They hit HARD without food/Defender on my defense/VIT/enmity built, but seemed like they didn't have much HP, and between Slow, Elegy, and Paralyze (which proc'ed amazingly well), the total damage I took wasn't too bad. (But, each hit hurts a lot if shield didn't proc--stupid shield skill just isn't capping for me. Bleh.)

So, I finally used the Dorado Sushi I always carried, and switched to what accuracy/STR/attack gear I have.

Tanking wise, turned out I had difficulty holding the monster, so had to switch to High Breath Mantle quickly, and went back to the AF body. (That's the nature of tanking VT's in ToAU, I suspect.)

Damage wise, since I've never fought Puks before, it's hard to say if it's an impressive improvement or not. Probably due to their blink and flash moves, seemed like it took forever to get to 300% TP for Spirits Within. (Could be a perception problem, since I'm not used to saving TP for that long--we replaced one DD and now I don't have anyone to SC with. T_T )

Gear wise, I eventually settled on mix of DD and and enmity for static pieces (3/5 AF), and macro'ed to defensive accessory if burning too much MP, and strove to use offensive accessories as much as possible. (After hitting Lv.61, was able switched to Minuet Earring and Amemet Mantle without much trouble, though.)

I would say given our party set up (PLD, SAM x2, BRD, RDM, WHM, Lv.59-60), the hybrid Tank/DD setup works fine on Puks. We have plenty of backline healing power, and they don't get hit from the additional curing. Full DD setup--at least, what passes for one given my limited purchasing power--is insufficient to keep the SAM's safe, however, even with Dorado Sushi.

But, that's just Puks. For the spiders used as fillers, I had to to toss on Defender and stick strictly to defensive accessories, and keep muttering to myself about how I miss my Shallop Tropicale.

Opinions on PLD in Lv.55-60's range:
1. Party and monster dependent, PLD hybrid tank/DD can work.
2. Pure DD PLD is unlikely to provide enough utility to a party to justify a slot, given "normal" level of gear expense.(*)
3. Given the damage the SAM's took when they step over the threshold, merit style "tank-less" TP burn is NOT recommend for Lv.50/60-ish party.

(*) I do think if a PLD is not tanking, he can earn a spot as DD/healer/SATA victim/helper in party w/out WHM.

* * *
To Timian:

Though I am far short of the list of gears you've listed, I still have to disagree with you on both not needing a tank in Lv.50-60's, as well as PLD going full DD. Tanks reduce the strain on healers' MP, and raises the threshold for DD's. Situationally, PLD's can tank with DD/enmity build in those levels, but not in every party setup and not for every monster.

Every PLD in those range should have a turtle build. =b (As well as options to go for more damage ready, of course.)

* * *

To BBQ:

I think S-E has been updating tanks continuously--via new gear and food, along with PLD adjustments. While I don't think more tanking related adjustment to PLD or NIN jobs themselves is forthcoming, it's likely the Dev's will tinker with gear and food some more.

[Amele]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

IfritnoItazura:

speaking as a sam in the same level range you're at (55-60), if the sam is well equipped they're tough to hold hate on, even with a traditional tank setup (I'm in a static with similar DD to yours: sam/war sam/rng pld cor brd smn) our paladin uses a traditional paladin setup and only holds rock solid hate if we consciously limit our output (i.e. not using berserk as frequently as possible, occasionally waiting a little before firing that next ws, trying to avoid doing 4x SC back to back etc) it doesn't help that I can solo tank lesser colibri on sam/war (had to do it a couple times when he d/c'd the other night) haven't tried to solo tank puks yet.

I can ask if he's interested in trying a DD-like pld setup as well (his main job is warrior so he should have most of the 'standard' 55-60 gear)

I've been pretty satisfied with pld/nin DD's in merit situations, although I generally won't invite one unless it's a friend. (to be fair: I generally don't invite *anything* to merit that isn't a friend if I can avoid it)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

speaking as a sam in the same level range you're at (55-60), if the sam is well equipped they're tough to hold hate on, even with a traditional tank setup

I think every tank depends on DD cooperation to some degree. It's not a bad thing, really, to be able to trade damage output for safety; if a DD can go crazy with no fear for safety/cure MP, then it'd be broken. >_>;

One Tarutaru SAM in my party has been top DD and challenge to tank for since Lv.30 or so. Now, we have two Taru SAM's... Tanking for my static has been quite fun. ^_^;

(I'm in a static with similar DD to yours: sam/war sam/rng pld cor brd smn) our paladin uses a traditional paladin setup and only holds rock solid hate if we consciously limit our output

In general, the best bet should be enmity/Defense for your PLD. You don't have as deep of healing power as my static, so I'd be hesitant to let the PLD take much more damage. Without Haste to speed up Flash recast, and with SMN's generally preferring not to use Hastega, I don't see too many other way of improving PLD's tanking performance except with enmity gear.

Not sure if anything can help with SAM/RNG, though. >_>;

On VT Puks, the PLD may get away with Dorado Sushi, but I noticed I was really dependent on two out three main enfeebs (Elegy, Slow, and Paralyze) to land--you only have Elegy in your arsenal, so I'd test it a few fights first before committing to a full session (bring alternate food, and have RR up for PLD and SMN).

With BRD and COR, you probably don't want a SAM/THF, either. =/ Perhaps have SMN coordinate with the SAM's for Earthen Ward before they go all out?

I can ask if he's interested in trying a DD-like pld setup as well (his main job is warrior so he should have most of the 'standard' 55-60 gear)

To be honest, I don't see massive shift to DD as the solution for your PLD. With BRD and COR buffing the melee's, it'd be hard on any tank without Trick Attack'ed WS on him, really.

Enmity+ gear should help, but unlikely to work miracles.

Have fun with your static. ^_^

[Karinya]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

So, I finally used the Dorado Sushi I always carried, and switched to what accuracy/STR/attack gear I have.
Tanking wise, turned out I had difficulty holding the monster, so had to switch to High Breath Mantle quickly, and went back to the AF body. (That's the nature of tanking VT's in ToAU, I suspect.)

VT's in general, actually. It was much worse before HBM and Warwolf Belt. >.> Vulnerable monsters are worse for tanks because more damage = more hate on the DDs. A THF helps, of course; a /THF helps some (even without SATA, TA+WS is quite a bit better than nothing).

I would say given our party set up (PLD, SAM x2, BRD, RDM, WHM, Lv.59-60), the hybrid Tank/DD setup works fine on Puks. We have plenty of backline healing power, and they don't get hit from the additional curing. Full DD setup--at least, what passes for one given my limited purchasing power--is insufficient to keep the SAM's safe, however, even with Dorado Sushi.
But, that's just Puks. For the spiders used as fillers, I had to to toss on Defender and stick strictly to defensive accessories, and keep muttering to myself about how I miss my Shallop Tropicale.

That's about what I would expect. But a person who isn't in a static isn't going to have 2 healers and Refresh+Ballad in every party; and some people who are in statics won't have that in *any* party (my old PLD static was PLD, SAM, DRK, RDM, BRD, BLM; it worked great, but even a smart BLM that is willing to help with some cures is not a WHM, so I had to be pretty careful of my damage taken against things like KRT scorpions.)

DD enmity is usually outperformed by +enmity enmity against high VT-IT mobs. The extra damage has some usefulness in killing slightly faster, but don't sacrifice so much +enmity that it endangers your party members.

Opinions on PLD in Lv.55-60's range:
1. Party and monster dependent, PLD hybrid tank/DD can work.
2. Pure DD PLD is unlikely to provide enough utility to a party to justify a slot, given "normal" level of gear expense.(*)
3. Given the damage the SAM's took when they step over the threshold, merit style "tank-less" TP burn is NOT recommend for Lv.50/60-ish party.
(*) I do think if a PLD is not tanking, he can earn a spot as DD/healer/SATA victim/helper in party w/out WHM.

Maybe. It looks good on paper, anyway. I agree with your points 1-3. I don't know quite how this thread started to lump together exp, merit, and HNM tanking, but it should be clear to everyone that the same tactics and gear/subjob selection don't apply to all three, and you should prepare for the fight you're actually going to be in, using the resources that are actually available to you.

I was just trying to emphasize that PLD - particularly exp as opposed to merit PLD, when IT enemies are common and dangerous - can't rely on every party having enough healers, and monsters with low enough damage, to be able to sacrifice some defense for more offense. Sometimes it is a good idea. Sometimes it is not. Therefore you should be prepared for both types of situations (and know how to distinguish between them).