Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

[little ninja]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

You won't take less damage tanking in DD gear. I never said you would.
You will take less damage if you would stop blood tanking and contribute to killingspeed.
10M worth of attack gear on a tank job won't make a lick of difference, I much agree.
300M worth of DD gear on a job suited for more than one role in a party will matter.

Actually you will take less damage tanking in DD gear, Its just not a huge difference. Considering the amount of stat boosts people put into it.

So what your saying is if i was a eva tank nin and i switched to atk/haste build, it wouldnt do a lick of good???

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

So what your saying is if i was a eva tank nin and i switched to atk/haste build, it wouldnt do a lick of good???

"10M worth of attack gear on a tank job won't make a lick of difference, I much agree.
300M worth of DD gear on a job suited for more than one role in a party will matter."

The point I was going for there was that there are no jobs that are
stricktly tanks only. Both PLDs and NINs are capable of filling more roles,
with the right setups.

The money thing was just me overexaggurating, because Karinya has
commented before in a DD PLD thread that she didn't much like it,
something I wasn't surprised by at all, since she hadn't even invested
in proper DD gear.

[Karinya]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Point being, if your VIT/Def is being so massively overwhelmed that it no longer makes a noticeavle difference - it's useless.

VIT and DEF work very differently. VIT can be overwhelmed. DEF can't (by anything with less than about 2000 atk, which doesn't exist). The difference between taking 600 damage and taking 1200 damage is very noticeable to most players, I dare say.

And no, Kirin isn't a "real" HNM. He's a 5 minute TP burn.

Oooookay. The other 99.9% of players in this game can have our discussion over here.

300M worth of DD gear on a job suited for more than one role in a party will matter.

You do know that 99.9% of players in this game do not have 300M and never will, right?

Your advice might be useful to maybe three people per server. The rest would be better off focusing on how to use the resources they actually have.

[Amele]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

it's interesting to point out but:

the currency required for an average Stage V relic (as in, the totally finished version) costs 120million in hourglasses (120 runs) assuming an average of 150 coins per run (low for cities, high for outlands, so it evens out)

300 Million gil is basically the equivalent of Excalibur and Aegis in gear with 60 million left over to fund full +1 gallant (and valor+1 currency assuming you bother with dreamlands); and personally I'd much rather my paladin had Exc and Aegis (certainly aegis) in 99% of situations where I'm expecting a pld to tank, than that he have what basically amounts to 300 million of gear to make him a second tier DD (if not third tier).

suggesting 300 million is basically saying: "Fund a relic" which is over the top for making a job DD (blackmage could be a melee DD with that kind funding)

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

VIT and DEF work very differently. VIT can be overwhelmed. DEF can't (by anything with less than about 2000 atk, which doesn't exist). The difference between taking 600 damage and taking 1200 damage is very noticeable to most players, I dare say.

Oooookay. The other 99.9% of players in this game can have our discussion over here.

You do know that 99.9% of players in this game do not have 300M and never will, right?

Your advice might be useful to maybe three people per server. The rest would be better off focusing on how to use the resources they actually have.

You completely missed what I just told LittleNinja about over-exaggurating
the money issue, didn't you?

Seriously, have you ever even tried tanking Vrtra?
Go as PLD/WAR with your turtle gear. Check your damage.
Then strip - tank him naked. Check your damage again.
Tell me if you see this huge difference that you were talking about.
Seriously, do it.

Unless you've had 1st hand experience with something like this,
keep your mouth shut.

And what kind of an argument is this "99.9% of all players" thing you keep bringing up?
Just because the majority of players suck doesn't make them right.
And well, last time I heard anything about it, like 10 SkyLS' were TP Burning Kirin on Fairy.
If that's "3 people on the entire server" then wow, those must be small linkshells.

300M isn't an obsene amount either.
Last time I made a rough estimate, I had like 950M worth of gear, and probably close to
320M in cash, and well, I'm not even in the top 10 as far as gil goes, on my server.

Engame linkshells are either elitists, or they are useless filler that only
serves to cause lag at HNMs by standing around wishing they were good enough
to actually do something there.

99.9% of the people in Valkurm Dunes are morons.
99.9% of the people in Whitegate are gimped.

I choose to ignore that, and when I post I generally try to
assume that whoever I'm talking to doesn't suck.
Call me naive, but that's just me giving people the
benefit of the doubt.

[eticket109]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

lol @ 950 mil in gear with current prices

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Unless you've had 1st hand experience with something like this,keep your mouth shut.
And what kind of an argument is this "99.9% of all players" thing you keep bringing up?
Just because the majority of players suck doesn't make them right.

99.9% of the people in Valkurm Dunes are morons.

I think somewhere you confused this board for KI or Alla. For someone who has been around these forums for over a year I'd have expected you to know better but you either need to learn some humility fast or move on and post on a board that is more suited to your ascerbic attitude.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

I think 99.9% is too high of a percent. More like 50%. And that number is always falling as "rare and elite" ways of thinking are understood by more people.

Anyway, even if Defense isn't so bad by itself, it's hurt a lot by the fact VIT is pretty useless. Most gear that is themed at helping Defense is also themed at helping VIT. And even at it's best, Defense is overall useless in most end-game situations.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

300M isn't an obsene amount either.
Last time I made a rough estimate, I had like 950M worth of gear, and probably close to
320M in cash, and well, I'm not even in the top 10 as far as gil goes, on my server.

It is an obscene amount. You might not be in the top 10 on your server, but you are still obscenely rich if what you typed is actually true (as opposed to over-exaggeration).

What percentage of a server's population do you think the "Top 10" constitutes? The number of total accounts for this game is usually reported at somewhere around 500,000. Over 32 servers, that's roughly 15,600 accounts each. That means the "Top 10" is only representative of 0.064 % of the population. Even if we assume that 500k total accounts has shrunk to half that size, your Top 10 still only represents a little more than one-tenth of 1 percent of the player population on your server.

Anyone in the top 2% of the population probably falls under the "obscenely rich" category. That's anywhere between 150 to 300 players.

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Grizzlebeard
There's a difference between being humble and
accepting complete bullsh*t.

Legal Fish
This is something I can agree on.
People are catching on, as they should.
You either get with the times or you're left behind.

LyonheartLakshmi
Let's see. My LS leader has maxed his gil on 2 characters.
One of the sackholders has maxed his on one character.
Out of our 50+ members, I'd say maybe half of them are richer than me.
I get a few benefits for being "main tank" in my ls,
but money isn't one of them.

Other people on Fairy who are wealthy:
Dahlia has maxed gil on 3 characters.
Her boyfriend has max on 2, I think.
Secure had maxed gil, as well as about the same
gear as me.
Azz has either maxed or is very close to maxing.
Not to mention that every single member of TheForsaken are
probably richer than me.
Ogu has maxed gil on something like 4 characters
-making him the richest guy on Fairy.
Most of my in-game friends have close to - or as much - gil as me,
so there's another 20ish people who somehow managed to get
"obscenely rich".
Besides these, I can think of at least 3 JP linkshells, and maybe 2 NAs who are
richer than my own linkshell - and I'm sure there are more that I am unaware of.
If all these people manage to make so much gil, OMG! That must mean
it isn't as hard as you make it out to be.

FFXI presents it's players with equal oppurtunities.
We all start with 50gil and an Adventurer's Coupon.
What you make of it is your own business.
The smart guys get rich while the douchebags get gimped.

Edit:

And exactly what does my gilcount have to do with tanking jobs in general?

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

This whole "3%" or "10%" argument makes very little sense to me. Not just because that number is always going up, but any change to Defense/VIT will help the other tanks in the game for the better. Let's not forget the game is getting "harder" in general with more end-game themed activities(ToAU).

Another point is, it shouldn't matter how many % of people are being effected. The biggest issues should be fixed. If this wasn't the case, PUP should just be removed, because even less people play PUP than people who fight Tiamat.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Seriously, have you ever even tried tanking Vrtra?
Go as PLD/WAR with your turtle gear. Check your damage.
Then strip - tank him naked. Check your damage again.
Tell me if you see this huge difference that you were talking about.
Seriously, do it.

Vrtra was kited last I checked. Kiting doesn't have much to do with tanking, if it does, then my COR sure can tank.

Unless you've had 1st hand experience with something like this,
keep your mouth shut.

You know, I've raised similar comments like this in the past, but I didn't put it this rudely.

And what kind of an argument is this "99.9% of all players" thing you keep bringing up?
Just because the majority of players suck doesn't make them right.

I've met more endgame players that suck than I have newbies that suck. Just because you TP Burn Kirin doesn't make you an amazing player, you just had DRKs with kraken clubs. You know as well as I do SE is gonna nix that little trick just like they did BRD tanking.

300M isn't an obsene amount either.
Last time I made a rough estimate, I had like 950M worth of gear, and probably close to
320M in cash, and well, I'm not even in the top 10 as far as gil goes, on my server.

Not all jobs roll in the gil. I'm fine with the fact that my jobs entail a lot of consumables. Top three jobs in expense are RNG, COR and NIN - in that order, possibly THF after them. People on those jobs will spend lots more gil than the average player. I know people that spend more time on RNG than I do, they drop more gil than I do and some don't even know how to spend it as efficiently as I do.

Other jobs don't spend gil that way. They can horde gil away all they like because their expenses end at 75, with few exceptions - Dyna/Limbus entry fees, relic upgrades if you're a masochist. v+1s, v2+1s, and general limbus gear are moderately taxing for other classes, just try doing them when you're still spending the same gil per week as you were at level 50. Again, not complaining, just stating the difference.

So your numbers aren't terribly impressive when weighted against a RNG who's been playing since the NA launch. I'm definately not that RNG, but I'm willing to bet he's spent more than most other players.

Engame linkshells are either elitists, or they are useless filler that only
serves to cause lag at HNMs by standing around wishing they were good enough
to actually do something there.

Elitism usually means you're really good at what you do or you're just an ass. I shift between the two, so I'd know.

"Elitism" does not equal "good." I know some really elite LS that do very well and are chock full of filler noob trash, the real elite are very few people in those LSes and not all of them are honest people.

So I have very little doubt that your LS would be any exception to that. He who as the most warm bodies typically gets claim, and in turn those warm bodies get cool stuff.

I know idiots with multiple sets of V2s that don't even know how to make an /equip macro. I know Ridill WARs that get outparsed. And these are the people in the "elite" linkshells. Wow, "elite" is really amazing.

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Vrtra was kited last I checked. Kiting doesn't have much to do with tanking, if it does, then my COR sure can tank.

I'm sure last time you checked, Kirin was kited too.

You know, I've raised similar comments like this in the past, but I didn't put it this rudely.

So I'm less sensitive than you are.
Kudos to you. I have no desire to be very well liked by people I don't know.

I've met more endgame players that suck than I have newbies that suck. Just because you TP Burn Kirin doesn't make you an amazing player, you just had DRKs with kraken clubs. You know as well as I do SE is gonna nix that little trick just like they did BRD tanking.

I've met several endgame players that suck.
What's your point? I never said everyone at endgame
were good players.

Not all jobs roll in the gil. I'm fine with the fact that my jobs entail a lot of consumables. Top three jobs in expense are RNG, COR and NIN - in that order, possibly THF after them. People on those jobs will spend lots more gil than the average player. I know people that spend more time on RNG than I do, they drop more gil than I do and some don't even know how to spend it as efficiently as I do.

Other jobs don't spend gil that way. They can horde gil away all they like because their expenses end at 75, with few exceptions - Dyna/Limbus entry fees, relic upgrades if you're a masochist. v+1s, v2+1s, and general limbus gear are moderately taxing for other classes, just try doing them when you're still spending the same gil per week as you were at level 50. Again, not complaining, just stating the difference.

So your numbers aren't terribly impressive when weighted against a RNG who's been playing since the NA launch. I'm definately not that RNG, but I'm willing to bet he's spent more than most other players.

I actually started as a NIN main. That was one of your top 3 expense classes, wasn't it?
Makes very little difference.
And hey, thanks for backing me up here, as my point was exactly this:
My gil numbers ARE NOT impressive by any means.
Anyone can get this kind of money, and only the slackers would call it "obscene".

Elitism usually means you're really good at what you do or you're just an ass. I shift between the two, so I'd know.

"Elitism" does not equal "good." I know some really elite LS that do very well and are chock full of filler noob trash, the real elite are very few people in those LSes and not all of them are honest people.

So I have very little doubt that your LS would be any exception to that. He who as the most warm bodies typically gets claim, and in turn those warm bodies get cool stuff.

I know idiots with multiple sets of V2s that don't even know how to make an /equip macro. I know Ridill WARs that get outparsed. And these are the people in the "elite" linkshells. Wow, "elite" is really amazing.

Those linkshells you're talking about are not ones that I would call "elite".
Simple as that.
As for my own linkshell; we don't let stupid people join.
Or gimps. Or troublemakers.

A Ridill WAR can easily be outparsed if he's slacking in other areas.
To put it like this, when we get a new recruit we don't expect him to
have top-gear, quite simply because he's had no oppurtunity to
obtain it yet. What we will do is get said gear for him.
But he won't be allowed into any main alliance until he has everything
we feel he needs either. Haubergeon NQ? No Speed Belt? Sorry, you're stuck killing links.
HQ people onry in the main alliance.

While some new people might get bored with this,
they will get their rewards soon enough.
Especially since 90% of our LS is already decked out in
every conceivable way, so new recruits never have to
wait too long before they're up next in line for X-Item.

Dishonest?
In what way?
We've never MPK'd anyone. We've never caused another LS to wipe.
We've never stolen a claim, and we've never cheated anyone out of a drop.
Once we had a member "steal" an Osode from us. We laughed about it a bit,
kicked said player from the LS and went back to killing a couple more Kirins.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

My gil numbers ARE NOT impressive by any means.
Anyone can get this kind of money, and only the slackers would call it "obscene".

So anyone that has less than 950M worth of gear and 320M in gil is a "slacker"? I declare Timian the Marie Antionette of FFXI.

"The peasant PLDs can't blood tank in def/VIT gear? Tell them to DD in Hauby +1, Sniper +1s and Speed Belts."

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Not all PLD need DD/ect builds, the point is that they will almost always be better with one. Which is kind of bad when PLD are the only job that really goes out of the way to get Defense.