Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

[Feba]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Don't knock it til you try it. Wasn't yearg's comments, I looked it up, but you can get good DEF returns with Cocoon. its always a 50% boost, main or sub.

......was there ANY relation between what I posted and what you said?

Your post is about as logical as dipping bacon in ketchup. Yes, but no.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Then are you conceding they can be EXP tanks or not?

The question pertained to improving tank jobs all-around, not just endgame tanking. Endgame is not the entire game.

Too bad you can't improve on tanks in exp parties, I thought this was made pretty clear. The reason they are not used before people prefer another source of large amounts of damage instead a tank.

Pre-TP Burn parties, tanks shouldn't have any problem staying alive or keeping hate. If anything needs to be done for the endurance of tanks, it would be boosting WHM's(and other healers) endurance.

The only area that have tanking issues worthy of mention is the end-game, where an entire stat/concept of the game fades into uselessness.

[Karinya]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

And by "the endgame" you mean "CoP Wyrms, AV, and maybe 1-2 other monsters nobody is going to name". Because it sure isn't true in Dynamis, Limbus, Assault, sky, ground HNMs (NQ or kings), tier 1 & 2 jailers, etc.

Oh wait - defense and vit are also useless at Cactrot Rapido! Therefore my whole class is broken!!

Need I remind you that over 90% of the players of FFXI will never even see Tiamat's name in red? That the concerns you are raising are valid to a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of players?


The unattractiveness of tanks in exp/merit is a FAR bigger problem for the game than anything regarding strategies for fighting Tiamat. (The most important of which is "bring the best bot or you don't even get to try".)

You're darn right "people prefer another source of large amounts of damage instead of a tank" - because they DON'T GET KILLED even when they completely ignore the defense of the party! Most TAU parties might as well be fighting rock walls, for all the danger they're in. Tanks are necessary when monsters are dangerous. Getting uber-awesome exp from non-dangerous monsters is why nobody wants tanks. (Accordingly, it isn't really the tanking jobs that need adjustment, it's the whole dynamic of high level exp that makes them unnecessary.)

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Because it sure isn't true in Dynamis, Limbus, Assault, sky, ground HNMs (NQ or kings), tier 1 & 2 jailers, etc.

Assault, Limbus, and Dynamis are filled with weaker monsters(or trash mobs as they would be called in WoW) so I can't say much about those type of events (but I'm sure they have bosses in them that make defense/vitality useless), but it is very true for Sky, Sea, and most HNMs.

(Accordingly, it isn't really the tanking jobs that need adjustment, it's the whole dynamic of high level exp that makes them unnecessary.)

You do know at this point, you are agreeing with me right?

[little ninja]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

The only area that have tanking issues worthy of mention is the end-game, where an entire stat/concept of the game fades into uselessness.

It pretty much starts to fade alot sooner then endgame. But it does indeed fade into uselessness.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

It pretty much starts to fade alot sooner then endgame. But it does indeed fade into uselessness.

This is quite true. I'd say even by level 50, a PLD will never be better off focusing on Defense(beyond a good Shield and some Job Abilities) than Offense.

[Akashimo]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Isn't this due mostly to the fact, like with cures(expect for Cure V or any, to a point with Divine Seal), having a max cap. So, even if your defense/vit is high, it just get ignored if it gets passed the amount for the level you're at? And in most cases, I think that could be applied to str/attack too, though i'm not entirely sure.

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Isn't this due mostly to the fact, like with cures(expect for Cure V or any, to a point with Divine Seal), having a max cap. So, even if your defense/vit is high, it just get ignored if it gets passed the amount for the level you're at? And in most cases, I think that could be applied to str/attack too, though i'm not entirely sure.

No. It has to do with monsters' Weapon Damage being so high
that it completely ignores your defense.

And STR/Attack "caps" have nothing to do with your current level.
That has to do with *your* base Weapon Damage in relation to fSTR / pDIF.

Your level only really effects your WSC.

http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/dmgcalc.htm

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

This is quite true. I'd say even by level 50, a PLD will never be better off focusing on Defense(beyond a good Shield and some Job Abilities) than Offense.

Sounds like an over-generalization at the very least.

Care to explain why you think so? Is it based on experience?

* * *

I always bring attack gear as well as defense gear when on PLD. (I bring two defense food plus Dorado Sushi, too.)

My PLD's static party exp'ed at Uleguerand Range on Nival Raptors the last two sessions. Let's just say I quickly switched in all defense gear, stayed with defense food--and kept up Defender full time the first session, and about 70% the second session.

Yes, it's an old school camp, but exp is exp, isn't it? (We hate fighting for camp space.)

Not that defense is uselss in ToAU area; before that, I used defense good/gear setup for Marsh Murre and no food + mixed defense/VIT/attack/accuracy gear for Lesser Colibri--toward the end, anyway.

* * *

From my experience as PLD (and leveling RDM with PLD's), I'd say defense/VIT gear is still the safer bet than attack/accuracy for Lv.50's and 60's. You can always make exp parties work if you have gear for turtling, though I would agree having the option to switch to attack/accuracy is nice.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Uleguerand Range on Nival Raptors...

Yes, it's an old school camp,

I don't know if you can call any CoP zone an "old school" camp...

Care to explain why you think so? Is it based on experience?

No, it's not based on first-hand experience, only viewing from a distance and looking at numbers.

Usually, good use of your job abilities and a good shield will be enough to migrate most damage in exp. If that isn't enough, some good tank food should be.

After that, you are much better off focusing on doing damage with Attack and Accuracy in as many slots as possible. Not only does this help you keep hate, but killing the monster faster will save you more damage than a few points off every hit.

Probably better off using attack or accuracy food instead of tank food.

[little ninja]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

For me i came to this conclusion after some long hours of trying to cap parry against different mobs, an different lvl ranges from EP to EM. I was switching between my haste gear an my high def/vit gear. An oddly the only difference i was getting between the 2 gear swaps was around 20 less damage from the mobs. In some cases i was doubling an tripling me def an vit. There is no reason why this should equal 20 less damage on evan match mobs.

Its like i tell younger bst an post on the bst forums. After +20-25 chr. You cap an anything after that becomes worthless regardless if your charming a ep or a tough mob.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

I don't know if you can call any CoP zone an "old school" camp...

Sure it is! Conventional wisdom these days is "ToAU area only" after Lv.55! =b

No, it's not based on first-hand experience, only viewing from a distance and looking at numbers.

My first-hand experience has been different.

Usually, good use of your job abilities and a good shield will be enough to migrate most damage in exp. If that isn't enough, some good tank food should be.

After that, you are much better off focusing on doing damage with Attack and Accuracy in as many slots as possible. Not only does this help you keep hate, but killing the monster faster will save you more damage than a few points off every hit.

Probably better off using attack or accuracy food instead of tank food.

Well, shield size largely determines how good a shield is, and size 3 (kite shield) is pretty much the PLD standard. Job ability wise, Sentinel is the best at damage reduction (and wonderful enmity, too), but it doesn't last all that long. I haven't hit Rampart levels, but that's not exactly long lasting, either.

Enmity+ gear/food/enchantment does more to "keep hate" than attack or accuracy, though I do think accuracy is a pretty good way to make better use of enmity+.

Killing faster means taking less damage is too simplistic way of looking at things; real cost analysis should be on how much more damage taken vs. how much more damage dished out. (Unfortunately, I'm not up to testing such a thing.)

* * *

My gauge on how well I do as a tank is pretty simple: Is the Tarutaru SAM in static getting hit or not?

At every new camp, I start off with no food and only defense gear to determine food choice by how hard I'm getting hit. Once food is decided, I switch to attack/accuracy gear and see how things go. If not well, I switch back.

What ended up happening more often than not is defense food + defense gear--especially since "defense gear" now is artifact armor with enmity+ all over. *shrug* I have tanked at times with Scorpion Harness and other stuff, but usually lean more toward "tank" than "DD" setup. (Again, keep in mind that I adjust gear according to condition.)

If defense food and gear lets the DD's SC before second provoke without getting them (especially the Tarutaru SAM) killed, then I consider myself to be doing very well. If they still get hit after SC post-second provoke, then I'm doing very poorly

If anything has been changing in the last 10 levels (50 -> 60), it's that I seem to be more reliant on enmity+ gear than ever. Otherwise, most sessions I use more defense/VIT than attack/accuracy on the whole, except for the Life Belt which generally stays on. (I do bring a Jungle Belt, which I used for a bit when we first started on Nival Raptors, I think.)

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

If by "DD-setup" you mean a couple of acc rings, an SH and some food, then no... you won't see very impressive results. Try something like this instead (brackets = prefered choice).
Assuming you're at 60 and going as PLD/WAR:

Sword: Bastard Sword +1
Shield: Sentinel Shield (Viking Shield)
Head: Sipahi Turban (Abtal Turban)
Body: Haubergeon (+1)
Legs: Sipahi Zerehs (Abtal Zehres)
Hands: Ice Gauntlets
Feet: Gallant Leggings
Ears: Assault Earring / Storm Loop
Rings: Woodsman Ring x2 (Raja's Ring)
Neck: Chivalrous Chain / Peacock Amulet /Peacock Charm
Back: Behemoth Mantle (+1)
Ammo: Tiphia Sting
Waist: Potent Belt

You're bound to notice the difference.

[Karinya]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

No. It has to do with monsters' Weapon Damage being so high
that it completely ignores your defense.

http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/dmgcalc.htm

I just think it's funny that you link to VZX while in the same post saying things that are completely contradicted by the information found there.

In case you weren't paying attention when you read it: pDIF is a multiplier. The higher weapon DMG is, the *more* difference it makes. High damage *can* reduce the relative effect of fSTR (and thus VIT), but never eliminate it. That's why Kirin's Deadly Hold does 1200 to ninjas caught without shadows, 2k+ to berserk rng/wars who did one too many flashy shot... and 600 to paladins. Because defense *does matter*. (If someone is now going to claim that Kirin isn't a "real HNM", I will (a) laugh, and (b) point out that 90% of endgame activity deals with monsters equal to or weaker than Kirin - and of course 100% of exp.)

There is no magic number of damage that allows a physical attack to "completely ignore your defense". Theoretically a monster could have a physical attack so strong that it would kill you anyway because you "only" took 3,000 damage instead of 5,000 or 10,000, but no such monster exists. Attacks that do that much damage are all magical or special (like 10,000 Needles or Everyone's Rancor).

You may find a point where increasing your DEF further requires enough sacrifices in other stats that your overall performance is not as good. However, increasing your personal damage is rarely helpful in exp when you have 3-4 other DDs contributing the majority of party damage; it's worse in HNM where you have 10+ DDs (not counting ones waiting to swap in) and may not even be swinging. Enmity, haste or other stats are likely to be more important even if you are giving up some DEF.

If the damage you're taking is *already insignificant* you might want to increase your damage just to allow the party to kill faster and get slightly better exp, but don't fool yourself into thinking that you will take less damage because of it. If you really want to kill faster, you need better DDs, not 10M worth of attack gear on a tank job.

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

I just think it's funny that you link to VZX while in the same post saying things that are completely contradicted by the information found there.

In case you weren't paying attention when you read it: pDIF is a multiplier. The higher weapon DMG is, the *more* difference it makes. High damage *can* reduce the relative effect of fSTR (and thus VIT), but never eliminate it. That's why Kirin's Deadly Hold does 1200 to ninjas caught without shadows, 2k+ to berserk rng/wars who did one too many flashy shot... and 600 to paladins. Because defense *does matter*. (If someone is now going to claim that Kirin isn't a "real HNM", I will (a) laugh, and (b) point out that 90% of endgame activity deals with monsters equal to or weaker than Kirin - and of course 100% of exp.)

Sigh, do I really have to feed you everything with a spoon?

"High damage *can* reduce the relative effect of fSTR (and thus VIT), but never eliminate it."
Point being, if your VIT/Def is being so massively overwhelmed that it no longer makes a noticeavle difference - it's useless.
You could might as well be saying "hitting something with a 1DMG weapon also causes damage, and so the effect can't be overlooked!" to which I'd still reply that what you were doing was useless and a waste.

And no, Kirin isn't a "real" HNM. He's a 5 minute TP burn.

If the damage you're taking is *already insignificant* you might want to increase your damage just to allow the party to kill faster and get slightly better exp, but don't fool yourself into thinking that you will take less damage because of it. If you really want to kill faster, you need better DDs, not 10M worth of attack gear on a tank job.

You won't take less damage tanking in DD gear. I never said you would.
You will take less damage if you would stop blood tanking and contribute to killingspeed.
10M worth of attack gear on a tank job won't make a lick of difference, I much agree.
300M worth of DD gear on a job suited for more than one role in a party will matter.