Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

[Amele]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Look at Koenig armor - or as people now call it, lolKoenig.

not that this isn't true for 80% of the sky abjuration gear anyway these days.. cop and (especially) AU have largely replaced all of it.

[Ziero]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

And whatever you get from your subjob. WARs don't have to sub WAR - they get all those useful WAR abilities *plus* the subjob of their choice. If you're below 74, NIN is not a good tanking subjob, precisely because it doesn't give you any hate holding tools and all you get is crappy utsu:ichi.
If you're talking about a party with tons of DD and not enough healers, yeah, that doesn't work well. Which describes a lot of parties, especially after TAU. But in the right setup, WAR tanks pretty well if they know what they're doing (and could easily get a few tweaks to tank better).

As a war tank you get very little from subs. With Mnk you get boost, which is the best hate holding tool of any of the subs yet does nothing for damage mitigation, counter, which can help keep hate and mitigate dmg, is unreliable at best when subbed and going against VT+ mobs and dodge, which is more or less worthless for Wars. From Sam you get Third eye, which negates one hit every 60 seconds, and at 70 Seigan, which is half ass effective when subbed. Outside of mage jobs, no other sub can provide War with any increased defensive capabilities. But Pld and Nin have built in tools that not only increase enimity, but reduce and mitigate large quantities of damage. These jobs are capable of being effective tanks *without* war sub, it's just that they function better with it.

And on average, the 'normal' party is 3 DDs, tank, and a support class. In a set up like that with a War tank, more MP will be used because the War can *not* negate any of the damage done to them on their own. Where as Plds can heal themselves and nins can prevent and avoid dmg all on their own a War will just stand there and take it while giving only a fraction back. This is especially bad on Colibri, the 'easy mode' of FFXI exp pts, because they have moves that can be ignored by Plds and Nins but become devastating to a War tank. With no food to help their Def and no TP to keep hate, Wars fall behind very quickly.

This isn't saying Wars can't tank or that they shouldn't be expected to tank, it's saying that War is exponentially better at killing then it is at defending.

[Omni]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Karinya, you're looking at Legal Fish's claim the wrong way. There IS a marked difference in damage taken between a PLD and a non-PLD with low Defense. That's not the point. The point is that the PLD - who already has high Defense - can raise his Defense further all he wants, and won't see much gains. Look at Koenig armor - or as people now call it, lolKoenig. Even if it didn't have those ugly -DEX and -STR penalties, it'd still be useless under the current system. When ridiculous amounts of Defense and +40 VIT do nothing for you, you know the stats are broken.

what do people tank in now for pld? if koenig is not viable anymore for hnm? I always thought koenig is still good for high level mobs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Went outside to have a little fun with 75BRD/13BLU on colibri, completely naked, at that.

Start Defense - 123

DEF with Minuet III + IV and Cocoon - 299

Already, my BRD has more DEF naked than my RNG or COR fully armored.

Damage taken - from 52 to 73

DEF Soul Voice, Minuet III+IV, Cocoon - 428

Damage taken - from 27 to 52

Damage taken w/o any songs or Cocoon - 127+

And I've heard BRD/BLU with really high DEF gear can go much higher than this, I believe it was Yeargibble who researched that.

All that considered, I think WAR/BLU has some real tank potential. Get some MP/DEF foods and Refresh, possibly a BRD willing to roll some Minuets on him and he might take as much or less damage than a PLD/WAR

[Armando]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

what do people tank in now for pld? if koenig is not viable anymore for hnm? I always thought koenig is still good for high level mobs.

How I understand it, most things are tanked as PLD/NIN using +Enmity and Haste (for Flash recast timer), and +Shield skill for things that hit you.

[Amele]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

what do people tank in now for pld? if koenig is not viable anymore for hnm? I always thought koenig is still good for high level mobs.

How I understand it, most things are tanked as PLD/NIN using +Enmity and Haste (for Flash recast timer), and +Shield skill for things that hit you.

has alot more to do with *what* you're fighting than anything else. many hnm are still tanked by pld/war. many hnm are still tanked by nin/war. you'll occasionally see pld/drk in haste gear, nin/drk in haste gear, or pld/nin in haste gear. (I haven't seen many/any nin/pld though)

pld/nin is often used as the aerial tank for great wyrms.
pld/drk is popular for 23 second stun. (stun is roughly the same hate as provoke).

as for common gear. realistically, a standard hnm kit for pld/war has always been (and will always be) a mix of gallant/+1, valor, and koenig. (with the occasional AU piece thrown in as they become more available, and, more rarely, a piece or two of adaman or lord's sets)
pld/nin wears similar gear but emphasizes haste and enmity+ (I've actually seen *more* pld/nin wearing Koenig Body and/or other pieces, simply because they haven't hit the diminishing returns point with other gear already and actually benefit from the massive +vit)
Koenig is and continues to be good stuff. (except the feet.. lol) It's just the days of the full koenig paladin being the 'default' build ended about the same time that icelands valor became more than a pipe dream for 90% of paladins. (2005 time frame)

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Koenig still good stuff?
Give me haste/enmity any day.

The only decent piece of Koenig is the helmet, for the shield shill+,
and that's only if you can't reach 310-314ish skill without it.

The body used to be cool for blood tanking, just for the
rather massive HP boost, but got outdated the same time
blood tanking did.

Here's a fun story:
I wore full Koenig to Tiamat once, just because
a couple of new recruit PLDs wanted to see it "in action".
So I take a few hits with it. Then, do demonstrate the ridiculousness
of Koenig to said new PLDs, I start stripping.
I'm running around with nothing but accessories (earrings, rings, belt, cape, bow)
and then tell them to watch the damage.
Lo and behold, I'm getting hit for the same amount naked as I was in
full Koenig. Having just crushed their dreams about being "uber PLDs" once they got Koenig, I did a /comfort to the newcomers, and put on my haste/enmity gear and got to work.

[Feba]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

BBQ, the problem they were citing with defense wasn't literally that it doesn't do anything, it's that it doesn't do anything *after a certain point*.

Diminishing returns hurt.

[Amele]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

again, speaking as a whm I'll take either on a tank. for the most part I'd rather not see koenig feet, legs, or hands (there's better pieces) but body is fine. (it's pretty much in the top 4 for bodies and it's not too unusual for a pld to end up with koenig body before gallant+1 or valor these days) head is good (again depending on shield skill)

the full set? crap. like you demonstrated. was tiamat the best mob to demonstrate on? for what you were trying to show them, of course. (like I said, enmity/haste is standard hnm kit). that said, I've seen paladins who literally would get eaten alive without a piece or two of koenig, simply because they don't have the merits and other accessories yet to *really* back up their main set. pieces of koenig are still useful (situationally) for paladin which is alot more than can be said about alot of other sets for other jobs (take hecatomb for thief for example, or the entire shura set for ninja. etc) which is why I called it 'good stuff'. great stuff? not really, no. That doesn't mean that it's totally ignorable either (like nashira for whm for instance.. lol).

I'd be willing to bet your merits and accessories were such that you were up against the diminishing returns point vs. tiamat before you even started worrying about legs/hands/head/feet/body. A freshman pld with fewer merits and less complete gear might still be in a situation where he could use 1 or 2 pieces. (again, head/body ideally).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

BBQ, the problem they were citing with defense wasn't literally that it doesn't do anything, it's that it doesn't do anything *after a certain point*.

Diminishing returns hurt.

Don't knock it til you try it. Wasn't yearg's comments, I looked it up, but you can get good DEF returns with Cocoon. its always a 50% boost, main or sub.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

I would go over what I mean, but posters like Armando have already said a good deal.

BBQ your test means nothing at all. Why? Because you are not testing it on a HNM. In fact, you just proved my point. Colibri don't have anywhere near the same Weapon Damage that Tiamat has. Like someone has said, you are not going to notice a difference on the real HNMs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

I would go over what I mean, but posters like Armando have already said a good deal.

BBQ your test means nothing at all. Why? Because you are not testing it on a HNM. In fact, you just proved my point. Colibri don't have anywhere near the same Weapon Damage that Tiamat has. Like someone has said, you are not going to notice a difference on the real HNMs.

Most "real" HNMs get beaten down in a matter of minutes these days, which ones are the "real" ones?

This thread wasn't meant to degenerate into a HNM discussion and you're overgeneralizing, but since that's where you've steered it, I'll point to this thread.

And as far as not letting Wars tank, JR uses wars to tank Tiamat. So does a little linkshell called IRON on Bismark. Maybe you heard of them? 2 Aegis and working on a third Gjallarhorn? They also farm Bahamut and Dynamis Lord like it's Leaping Lizzy.

So the thought of WAR tank isn't exactly unheard of for highend fights. =X

Also, like Xer said, WAR/WHM makes a great Tiamat/Jormungand tank. Through 30 or so Tiamats with JR, trying WAR/NIN, PLD/NIN, NIN/WAR, PLD/WAR, WHM/WAR tanks and WAR/WHM tanks, I think nearly all of us have come to the conclusion that WAR/WHM is the ultimate Grand tank. They simply hold the most hate and take the least damage, and at the same time, have access to nice aoe heals. They even get Magic Defense Bonus for Tiamat in flight, and access to tons of fire resist gear. I setup a decent fire resist set with 150 fire resists (without barfira or carol) on my WAR/WHM to test this at Tiamat. With barfira from a WHM with enhanced bar-spells and Fire Carol from a bard, Tiamat's fire balls in air only did 15-60 damage to me fairly consistantly. With about 200k more in gear, 180 base fire resist can be had

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Most "real" HNMs get beaten down in a matter of minutes these days, which ones are the "real" ones?

What do you mean? If you are talking about how HNMs can be zerged with tactics like DRKs using Kraken Club with Soul Eater, then that has nothing to do with a the effectiveness of Defense and Vitality. When I say "real" HNMs, I mean the ones that have such a large amount of Weapon Damage that Vitality and Defense are quite useless against them.

Colibri are not HNMs, no.

And I'm completely confused on why you linked that thread. It has nothing to do with what I'm saying. (Though, I did chuckle at Xerlic's words)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Colibri are not HNMs, no.

Then are you conceding they can be EXP tanks or not?

The question pertained to improving tank jobs all-around, not just endgame tanking. Endgame is not the entire game.

[Akashimo]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

The question pertained to improving tank jobs all-around, not just endgame tanking. Endgame is not the entire game.

I was waiting for someone to say that >_>;;;; The big picture statement and new quote of the week.