Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

[Akashimo]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

It would kill more than blink tanking...
Imagine if a DD/NIN pulls hate after a nice WS,
the mob/NM takes one swipe at him and *boom* hate resets...
Tanking in general would become impossible...

I'm suprised no one else said that after the hate reset idea.

Tanking in general would become impossible...

[/quote]
I think this has become the case already in ToAU exp.....
Nins don't bother trying to hold hate or increase thier shadows not hit.... Always in the haubies and voking they are, and most wondered why they die. And I've never seen a war/nin outside of a hauby, ever. If a war is /nin, it ain't a tank in my book.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

I notice you don't mention BLU at all (either as a main or sub). +50% defense with no loss of attack not relevant to a discussion of tanking?

In large part I think it is plain old laziness that keeps people from trying to use the potential of WAR/SAM, BLU/WAR, WAR/BLU (maybe SAM/WAR too, especially with the +def riceballs). People don't want to try to develop new methods of tanking that work for those jobs when they can just invite two WAR/NINs and let them bounce hate back and forth and never get hit. And WARs and BLUs themselves don't want to bother keeping DD and tanking gear (and leveling the subjobs if they don't have them already). Plus, the ability to invite someone who is a DD and a tank in only one party slot is very tempting, for obvious reasons.

BLU and /BLU were thoughts that popped in my head earlier yesterday and somehow I just forgot to jot them down. When you think about it, especially with the Signet change, there is a lot of incentive for BLU or /BLU to take on this kind of role and other jobs to request PTing back in the original zones. But its the EXP bonus Sanction gives that works against it.

BLU also has a major potential as a main healer, which seems to be the dirty little secret BLUs don't want anyone to know, the mere thought of main healing petrifies them.

There need to be people who are willing to work against trends than go with the flow, working against the trends just isn't practical in standard EXP PTs, so static parties are required to get such informent. When someone tells a melee RDM to get a static, its not meant to be cold, its literally meant that you should get a static because many PTs just won't have it.

Perhaps if people were willing to form groups, or even linkshells, to explore different types of roles and PTs, that would be a solution. But they'd have to be vocal groups, with blogs and data. Its just so tempting to do things the easy way. We need more pioneers.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

It would kill more than blink tanking...
Imagine if a DD/NIN pulls hate after a nice WS,
the mob/NM takes one swipe at him and *boom* hate resets...
Tanking in general would become impossible...

Well, that's the whole point, not trying to tank as NIN or /NIN. If they use /MNK, /SAM, /THF or some such, there wouldn't be an issue.

And I suppose I miscommunicated my wayward thought, what I was trying to say was "erase hate for that player every time his shadows were hit." Then next on the hate list would get the mob's attention. I guess "reset" was misleading.

But like I said, it's nothing I'm fervently wishing for, but if S-E really wanted to discourage it, then... it's an idea.

[Feba]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

The thing is, SE would have to be very creative to make a new tanking job. We have Hate through Damage and Defense through Evasion and Hate through Curing and Defense through Defense.

This is why a lot of people were hoping that the Puppet would be able to tank, because we need a different form of tanking. If we go with another straight DEF idea, like people have proposed for gladiator, it will just fight with PLD, and the other job will become unpopular.

Ideas:
Time Mage: Instead of just recycling RDM/BRD/COR/WHM etc., make it's main ability lv41 or such, and make it "Stop". Absorb all damage and all cures On SELF ONLY for 30-60 seconds, and have all the damage/cures calculated at the end of the time. Would be useful for fighting things that do huge amounts of damage per hit, but wouldn't have much better defense than a DRG or SAM. It would have their main benefits in tanking, but with the ability to soak in damage long enough for a WHM to cure efficiently. Maybe add in reverse, but do something to make it trickier than it is in FFXII.
Acrobat: Like a THF in PUP's clothing, make a high evasion class that doesn't do much damage, but gets a LOT of hate. Sorta like NIN, but without shadows. Maybe special "Flip" JAs that work like SJ, but without losing hate... actually, potentially gaining hate.
Mirrorknight: Like time mage's reverse, a job that has power with reflect/reverse abilities. Also, incredibly shiny AF.
???: No idea what to call this, but a job that uses it's party member's HP. Like, you get hit, and it calculates the damage on you, but the WHM takes the HP hit. Generate PLD-level hate, and PLD+level defense, and your allies take the actual damage.

Of course, these are just poorly thought out ideas. SE really needs to stop making DDs though.

[Timian]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Well, that's the whole point, not trying to tank as NIN or /NIN. If they use /MNK, /SAM, /THF or some such, there wouldn't be an issue.

And I suppose I miscommunicated my wayward thought, what I was trying to say was "erase hate for that player every time his shadows were hit." Then next on the hate list would get the mob's attention. I guess "reset" was misleading.

But like I said, it's nothing I'm fervently wishing for, but if S-E really wanted to discourage it, then... it's an idea.

Yeah, ok, so they erase the hate for *that player* when his shadows are hit.
Result? Ridill WARs and Kraken DRKs who *never* get stuck with hate.
Imagine the abuse.

[Feba]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

That's almost as broken as a class that could rotate using a spell to avoid taking damage, while not losing hate when they get hit like a normal tank.

[Akashimo]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Kind of bored, so I just thought of some possible abilities for a Mirror Knight

Reflection: Occassionally reflects damage to the source.
Starting at level 10, though when subbed, the chances are more than halfed.
As it gets higher it can wear anything nins, pld or mages along with using the light type elements for spells (fire, thunder, wind and light based spells blu, whm, ninjutsu or blm lines of spells).
Double Edge Sword: JA, 2 min recast; level 15, disregaurd all negating abilities and take direct damage from next attack by your oppent to return them the same amount.
Mirror Shield: JA, 15 min recast; level 25, Stun yourself for 30 seconds to increase enmity and reflect all damage to your oppenet until 30 seconds is over. Mirror Shield stun is not erase able.
Mirror Sword: Job trait; level 40, occassionally adds a dispel to Mirror shield
and Double Edge Sword.
Knight's Reflection: JA; level 1, disable all other job abilities and traits to reflect all damage and status ailments to your oppent at the cost of half current HP and 15 second stun effect to self.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

I like when you guys make up ideas for how to fix "tanking", you don't focus on any of the real problems.

Shadows are so important because Defense and Vitality does nothing against a monster with insane Weapon Damage.

Enmity is hardly a problem at all, for either job. The reason tanking isn't popular in burn-parties isn't because the tank can't hold hate, it's because no one wants him to. They want more Damage. On HNM, if a NIN needs more hate, he'll sub DRK or PLD. On HNM, if a PLD needs more hate, he'll sub WAR(but NIN would probably much stronger).

And the whole Shadows erasing all hate... are you joking? I thought you were at first. I mean this with no offense, that has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What would happen? Everyone but the tank would sub /NIN, no exceptions. For burn parties? Everyone will sub /NIN, even the mages. Jobs that function much poorly without a good sub? They don't get invited anymore (DRG, SMN, DRK, ect). An alliance of 18 BLM/NIN can now officially take down anything in the game, let alone MNKs and WARs. Ugh, think things through before you post them.

If you want to fix tanking, you got to start with what makes sense: fixing Defense and Vitality. If 30% of game's gear is based around tanking, then at the moment, 25% of game's gear is worthless passed level 60. That number every pieces of armor has, next to "Defense:", shouldn't even be there anymore if it is going to do nothing.

Then, if you wanted to make tanking less focused on shadows, nerf it in the direction where it is pretty broken: "single target" magic. At the moment, when you have a tank with shadows, as long as the spell doesn't say aga at the end or is named Death, you can go to sleep for a couple of seconds while a monster casts it. It's break time and that's pretty corny.

[Feba]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

You mean like give PLD a job trait that would make their states more worthwhile?

PLD lv50: Job trait: Guardian
Doubles Defense and Vitality

Something like that?

As for single target magic, instead of having monsters spam Aga (which is hard on mages, which makes it hard on the tank), how about spells hitting multiple times?

Like, for every tier, the spell hits more times? Would have to change how magic is calculated, but it would make Magic Accuracy more important too. If a Tier IV spell hits four times, ninjas will have a hard time keeping their shadows up against anything that can cast spells.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

PLD lv50: Job trait: Guardian
Doubles Defense and Vitality

Well, the thing is, it doesn't even matter at some point how much Defense and Vitality you have. The way things are calculated, the monster's very high Weapon Damage will simply make it pointless to stack much of it on.

I think a better idea would give PLDs are job trait that cuts extremely high weapon damage by a large number. I posted my idea of this in a previous post in this thread.

Like, for every tier, the spell hits more times? Would have to change how magic is calculated, but it would make Magic Accuracy more important too. If a Tier IV spell hits four times, ninjas will have a hard time keeping their shadows up against anything that can cast spells.

Well, I did post something like this in that same previous post... at least, if I'm understanding you correctly. Tiers would equal the amount of shadows taken, with AM I and AM II taking 5 and 6 shadows. A NIN would be able to drop the amount of shadows lost by 1-3 depending on strong they were compared to the caster.

Something like: NIN's INT/Ninjetsu Skill/Magic Accuracy vs Caster's INT/Elemental Skill/Magic Accuracy.
INT and Elemental Skill can be replaced by MND and Divine Skill for spells like Banish and Holy.

A Level 75 NIN with capped skill(and no other support on INT and skill) fighting a monster 10-15 levels above him will not have a problem reducing the shadow loss by one. He could probably further it if he put effort in Skill, Magic Accuracy, and INT. Of course, the shadow loss will never drop below one.

Thunder IV will usually mean 2-3 Shadow Lost and AM II will usually mean a shadow wipe(4 shadows lost) or damage going through. No more 5 second rest-time for NIN.

Would this break NIN's effectiveness against monsters that cast magic? No way. NIN(and in most situations, /NIN) will still be superior in negating physical damage and, (in some situations for /NIN) still be more effective in negating spells(for example, if a monster casts Paraylze or Fire I).

This would have a cool side effect of a NIN having an easier time with a weaker caster than a strong caster. How hard it would be tank a mage monster's spell is based on it's casting level.

The most important side effect would be that /NIN will be shit out of luck in reducing their shadow loss. It would be impossible for a /NIN to ignore an IV tier spell or a AM. Tier II and IIIs will also bring some decent difficulty for people subbing NIN.

[Feba]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Would be cool if multi hit spells could be spread across enemies, sorta like in FFV, but that would be too complex for FFXI I imagine.

[Karinya]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Well, the thing is, it doesn't even matter at some point how much Defense and Vitality you have. The way things are calculated, the monster's very high Weapon Damage will simply make it pointless to stack much of it on.

This is just not true. Look at the damage numbers from Deadly Hold, Quadrastrike (from the Dyna-Xarc NMs), heck, even Dynamis/Limbus regular mobs' Eagle Eye Shot. There's a huge difference between the amount of damage a PLD takes from those attacks, and the amount a NIN caught without shadows or a DD that just pulled hate takes. Monks get regularly one-shotted by attacks that do less than 1000 (sometimes less than 500!) to PLDs. Even statues do less damage to people with high DEF - it may still be 250, but that's better than the 500+ they can do to people with low DEF.

The difference is not as dramatic as the difference between shadows and no shadows; defense is not permanent Sentinel, either. But it's definitely there if you actually look.

In fact, a lot of the threat to PLDs in HNM tanking is from magic damage, precisely because defense really *is* useless against that. Hundred Fists in Dynamis can still kill a PLD, sometimes (especially coming from Gomory or a Hydra Monk) - but it will kill anyone else much faster. Why do you think that is, if Defense "doesn't even matter"?

The imbalance of HNM tanking is not because a PLD takes just as much damage as a shadowless NIN - they don't, at least not from physical attacks. It's because even HNMs hardly ever get through a NIN's shadows in the first place, without losing hate on the NIN at the same time. (If they do, and Utsu:Ni isn't ready, that NIN usually dies, though.)


I think part of the reason SE doesn't seem to see the same problem we do is gear. Their PLDs on the test server probably all have Hauteclaire, Aegis and Defending Ring; that would make a big difference from 95% (at least) of actual players who are PLD75. There really isn't a comparable gear gap for tanking ninjas - Ninurta's Sash or Speed Belt are the only real hard-to-get gear (the rest is stuff like Arhat's, W.Turban and for some fights Earth Staff) and the difference between those and the Swift Belt that anyone can easily get is rather small. If there were a 5% Hauteclaire, a 7% Defending Ring and a 15% Aegis that were as easy to get as the Swift Belt (or even as relatively easy as Byakko's Haidate), you'd see a quite different level of performance from the average PLD than you do now.

A fully equipped PLD takes *35%* less damage from magic than one with "only" full AF2 and everything that can be gotten from sky, limbus and T1/T2 jailers (and of course everything buyable). They take 17% less physical damage *in addition* to Aegis's higher shield proc rate and amount blocked. That makes it very, very difficult to balance an encounter appropriately for both of them.

[Ziero]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

I gotta admit, a lot of what Fish says is true, even if it's not 100% accurate. Def and Vit, like every other stat in this game, can reach a point where the more you put on the less effective it will be. As stated by Karinya, Plds definately take far less physical damage then any other job out there, I noticed that myself while as a war. Many of times I fully geared to tank for a pt in which we eventually got a Pld and they took far less damage per hit then I ever could. But there comes a point where constantly piling on more def and vit gear will not affect your visible damage reduction. Def and Vit in their current state aren't 'useless', they just lose their effectivness past a certain amount.

And then of course there is the fact that Plds have zero defense against magic in any way shape or form. Nins can take AMs and single target spells without any hesitation. Heck if I'm fighting a casting mob solo I pray it uses some high tier, long cast, single target spell as it gives me time to recast shadows and prep myself for the attack. And though Agas hurt nins, they hurt Plds just as much, if not more, because a Pld can't give himself a breather at red HP by recasting shadows. This is a massive diadvantage for Plds as some mobs are more dangerous with their magics then their melee.

Hate holding is not an issue. In TP burns no one tanks, this is intentional. If someone is trying to hold hate that means they are focusing on something besides killing and that goes against the TP burn's tactics. In 'ordinary' parties a good pld or nin will have no trouble holding hate, barring any uber insane DDs.

And War as a tank is not even close to being in the league of Nins and Plds. We have no native damage mitigation skills, aside from one buff that reduces our attack and a War's only hate holding tools are damage and voke. If we equip for Def we lose out of damage, if we equip for damage we lose out on def. Our eva is that of a brick and due to halved nin skills recasting shadows unassited is that much more difficult. And straight up blood tanking with no damage mitigation outside of a few subbed abilities only slows down todays faster pts. The higher a war gets the harder it is to tank, until 74 where just about anyone can 'tank' (brd/nin anyone?). Despite our lower lvl tanking prowess and enimity laden AF, Wars were built for damage first and meat shielding second.

[Armando]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

Karinya, you're looking at Legal Fish's claim the wrong way. There IS a marked difference in damage taken between a PLD and a non-PLD with low Defense. That's not the point. The point is that the PLD - who already has high Defense - can raise his Defense further all he wants, and won't see much gains. Look at Koenig armor - or as people now call it, lolKoenig. Even if it didn't have those ugly -DEX and -STR penalties, it'd still be useless under the current system. When ridiculous amounts of Defense and +40 VIT do nothing for you, you know the stats are broken.

[Karinya]

Re: Will there be any future adjustments for tanking jobs?

And War as a tank is not even close to being in the league of Nins and Plds. We have no native damage mitigation skills, aside from one buff that reduces our attack and a War's only hate holding tools are damage and voke.

And whatever you get from your subjob. WARs don't have to sub WAR - they get all those useful WAR abilities *plus* the subjob of their choice. If you're below 74, NIN is not a good tanking subjob, precisely because it doesn't give you any hate holding tools and all you get is crappy utsu:ichi.

And straight up blood tanking with no damage mitigation outside of a few subbed abilities only slows down todays faster pts.

If you're talking about a party with tons of DD and not enough healers, yeah, that doesn't work well. Which describes a lot of parties, especially after TAU. But in the right setup, WAR tanks pretty well if they know what they're doing (and could easily get a few tweaks to tank better).