Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

[Raydeus]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

In terms of straight up healing power, whm is probably the premiere healer, in terms of the long run, rdm wins mostly because few whm have a need to use Cure V, the higher tier Regen spells, and rdm has Convert and Refresh.

A Whm will run out of mp far sooner than a Rdm will, that's just how it is, and this is why people seem to favor Rdm for main healing.

Hmm, I'd like to level WHM to 75 just to find out if what you say is true.

If you consider Ballad, Sanction Refresh, SMN sub, and the Refresh gear WHM has access to I find it hard to believe a decent WHM would run out of MP in a decent burn party.

I mean I've been main healer in those awful 4DD parties (it's way too much work for crappy XP) and I've gone for over an hour without having to Convert unless I try to cast Ghettoctra or Haste everyone. But other than that I've been able to hold my ground with Ballad and Refresh alone, so with the proper sub and gear combo a WHM should have the same amount of MP (or more) and more efficient tools to work with.

Of course without being a WHM that lvl I can't test it for myself and see if it would work, but from what I've seen on the field that's pretty much the case, if the WHM doesn't know how to use the tools they have then even a 10mp per tick Refresh wouldn't help.

The reduction on Haste MP cost would help WHMs too though. =P

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

So what do you tell a party group that cannot find a WHM to main heal? Go log off and come back when there are?

I just see QQ in your post. Are you a bitter former-WHM? Too much angst.

I agree that RDMs are fine where they are. I, however, do not agree that only certain jobs should be appointed a slot in a party. The beauty of the job/combo system in this game is to make sure you don't get into a rut like what happened in EQ when you had to have class x and z present or otherwise you can't accomplish anything. GG GJ

I don't know where you got the idea I said WHM should be the one-and-only healer of the game, but I didn't say it.

I said RDM is currently the premiere main healer of FFXI and that should not be, they should have no large advantage over WHM. RDM should not have Tier IV White Magic because it not only gives them too much ground in the healing department, it contradicts what RDM is. They're supposed to be the in-between of WHM and BLM. 50/50, not 35/65.

I've never taken WHM beyond 39, I'm levelling WHM again in a 2nd character for another WHM sub, I'm hating every minute of it.

One big reason I quit RDM at 65 was I was also once a 75 BRD.

I hate to break it to people, but TP burn did not begin in ToA, the problem with RDM didn not start there, either. Not even close, its been around since Zilart first as the Arrowburn, then the Rampage PT post-RNG nerf and then the TP burns we have now.

Same exact format - Job x4/Job x3 + NIN, healer, Bard. Sometimes WHM, sometimes SMN, but usually RDM in the healer slot. Somtimes a NIN, sometimes not. Sounds familiar.

I stopped levelling RDM shortly after because I knew what I was in for. I enjoy the enfeebling part of the job, I like the constant juggling act that RDM can be. But when asked to main heal, you replace that juggling act with monotonous tedium that prevents you from displaying your enfeebling and enhancing abilities.

RDM's strength is giving a PT endurance against a mob, when you ask RDM to main heal, you've given up most of the endurace for refresh and cures. Yay?

Now mobs are such a damn joke RDM can't display those skills at all.

If anything, I'm a bitter RDM and its not because BLU got a higher sword rating and cooler spells. Its not because people don't want me to melee. RDM solo bores me to tears.

Its because I can't do what RDM is best at 90% of the time because someone couldn't find a WHM. After the third time you get invited and trek across with world to find out, upon arrival, that you're main healing and you came /BLM - it gets old.

But that doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the small issues RDM has, bitter or no. Like playing main healer RDM? Fine, knock yourself out. There's lots of ways to play RDM just as there are lots of ways to play other jobs, but we're drawn to roles for their main functions more often than not, we're drawn to the things that make the job fun.

If I can't play the job as I've enjoyed it, why play it?

Hmm, I'd like to level WHM to 75 just to find out if what you say is true.

If you consider Ballad, Sanction Refresh, SMN sub, and the Refresh gear WHM has access to I find it hard to believe a decent WHM would run out of MP in a decent burn party.

I mean I've been main healer in those awful 4DD parties (it's way too much work for crappy XP) and I've gone for over an hour without having to Convert unless I try to cast Ghettoctra or Haste everyone. But other than that I've been able to hold my ground with Ballad and Refresh alone, so with the proper sub and gear combo a WHM should have the same amount of MP (or more) and more efficient tools to work with.

Of course without being a WHM that lvl I can't test it for myself and see if it would work, but from what I've seen on the field that's pretty much the case, if the WHM doesn't know how to use the tools they have then even a 10mp per tick Refresh wouldn't help.

The reduction on Haste MP cost would help WHMs too though. =P

WHM can totally do the job, you don't need refresh or ballad in your spell list to do well as a WHM.

Its the perception that RDM - because they have Refresh natively - won't create downtime for a moving PT. People really don't even think about that when forming a PT now, its just second nature or how they do it because that's how people preached it from a forums.

Most burn PTs don't even roam, but the perception that you are moving is somehow cemented in the minds of the community. I do most of the damn moving for my PTs, WARs just wait to be fed birds, imps and flies.

Its largely perception, but RDM getting Tier IV white magic doesn't help matters at all.

[Amele]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

If you consider Ballad, Sanction Refresh, SMN sub, and the Refresh gear WHM has access to I find it hard to believe a decent WHM would run out of MP in a decent burn party.

1) /blm is much better than /smn for saving/gaining mp (7%@286mp/min <> 20mp/min refresh.)

2) a *weak* redmage will have: 3mp(ballad)+3mp(Refresh)+1(sanction) = 7mp/tick. a *strong* redmage will have 8 or 9. (dalm/af2head).

3) a *weak* whitemage will have: 3mp(ballad)+1mp(sanction) = 4mp/tick
a *strong* whitemage will have 5mp/tick (noble's tunic).

60mp/min is more than whitemage can make up with clear mind, especially in a roaming pt. (whm will have a 40mp- gap if rdm is /whm, otherwise, 60mp+ gap if rdm is /blm)

redmage should keep cure IV (part of the point of redmage is that the spell list is *more* than you would get with whitemage + blackmage 37 ) and Cure VI would be even more overkill.

The other issue of course, is that whitemage is ultimately built for alliance curing. (keep your party alive with curaga/regen, single target cure IV/V outside party members) and is too much healing and not enough mp-efficiency (silly, considering how whitemage is already the second most mp-efficient job before gear is considered.)

some solutions that would improve whitemage MP self-efficiency, making them less reliant on outside refresh effects (basically getting back the '60mp/min gap' that redmage enjoys in efficiency), in increasing level of radicality:

1) introduce gear with conserve mp that will be useful for whitemage, or job specific to whitemage. currently there are only three pieces whitemage can wear and only one of them is useful (and requires passing up better earrings for other jobs). the other two occupy cure+10% slots.

2) Make devotion usable on self. (so basically, a 25% one way convert), and cut the timer on divine seal to 5 minutes (:10 seconds per merit to 4 minutes). improve mp recovery and efficiency (has side effect of locking 3/6 merits in Category II, and making the 'race' in category I four-way instead of three-way.) consider doing alongside a system wide merit cap raise to ease the burden on whitemages who merited other categories before the update.

3) give whitemage a healing/enhancing magic specific conserve mp trait, that would either be a) noticeably stronger than general conserve mp or b) stacks with general conserve mp. this trait should be level 40+ (not subbable, I think level 50 or 60 would be good. perhaps even merited.)

4) give whitemage a trait that allows them to automatically med without resting, by otherwise not casting or fighting. (i.e. standing,walking,running) - a minor gain, but improves whitemage's ability to roam considerably, hopefully leading to a change in perception in the player base (that and it'd be a neat unique trait). should also not be subbable.

5) raise the level cap to 80+. (makes whm/rdm the de-facto standard combo, similar to war/nin at 75) has far reaching consequences to other aspects of the game.

with whitemage being buffed to be the 'best' healer, (a title enjoyed currently by redmage for 90% of merit situations) it would be easy to discuss improvements to other aspects of the redmage job without having to worry about totally obsoleting one of the original six jobs (thief being the other job that recently got buffed to prevent obsolescence.)

[Karinya]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

RDM is not a better healer than WHM. RDM is not even as good a healer as WHM.

What RDM is is an *okay* healer that is also a refresher in one party slot. For some situations you don't need the superior healing ability of WHM and then it's better to have a good-enough healer that's also a refresher than a really great healer that isn't.

This could be counteracted by having high level exp/merit where a RDM/WHM *wasn't* a good enough healer, where you needed a WHM+RDM+(BRD or COR) just to stay alive and keep killing things without too much downtime, but if you *had* that you'd make about as good exp as the people massacring colibri or imps. Currently there are no such camps, though - any monsters tough enough that you need more healing than a RDM/WHM can provide are also tough enough that they don't give good exp/hr compared to killing weak mobs fast with infinite chain.

WHM parties work great - at camps that have weaker exp/hr potential currently because of the exp system in its present state. That's the problem - imbalance between different party setups and camps, not RDM being "too good" a healer. It isn't that good - it's just good enough for camps where you're only fighting wimpy mobs. If wimpy mobs weren't the only mobs worth fighting for exp, there'd be no problem.

[Mhurron]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

I agree, neither WHM or RDM are broken, ToAU mobs are. Fix the source of the problem (as far as WHM having 'problems' finding parties) by making ToAU mobs a little harder and maybe pre-ToAU mobs a tiny bit easier.

Though this has little to do with the thread topic.

[Pteryx]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

I have to agree with the sentiment that the OP's idea of increasing Refresh efficiency would be game-breaking and force Red Mage more solidly into the aptly-put "pink mage" role. I will add a couple of points to the debate here.

* RDM isn't desired by meleeburn parties over WHM because of some myth of a moving party. RDM is desired over WHM because meleeburn parties don't stop to rest, they try to chain infinity, sometimes even pulling new mobs before the current mob is dead. WHM needs to rest to regain MP. RDM doesn't need to nearly as much thanks to Convert and Refresh. This can actually get pretty frustrating sometimes, as many meleeburns seem to believe that as a taru RDM, I have an infinite MP pool, not a time-limited ability to regain MP.

* While I don't think that WHM can be made to be desirable over RDM as a meleeburn healer, I do think things can be done to make it more clearly a better healer than RDM outside of that specialty. Making Healing Magic skill matter more, as others have said, would be a good start -- though SMN needs to be given a little more love before that can be messed with (say, making avatar accuracy be based on summoning magic skill on the same formula as weapon accuracy?). I favor making WHM more blatantly efficient and even better at status heals and protection, by taking steps such as:
** Improving the higher-tier Regen spells, possibly by increasing their duration to make them as MP-efficient as Regen I, or progressively reducing the casting times of higher tiers a la the Ni spells
** Giving post-sub-level WHMs flat-out Cure Potency job traits
** Seperate Divine Veil from Divine Seal, making it a job ability on a five-minute timer, thus allowing WHMs to display this unique ability often and not at the expense of an efficient life-saving act (this would also have the nice side-effect of making more mob types viable as XP mobs as long as you have a WHM)
** Make the Barstatus spells more effective (the same can be said of the matching bard songs)
** Add Amnesna, Terrona, etc. in the 60s, or at least Baramnesra and the like
...and see if the mob mentality can still call that gimp compared to RDM/WHM in non-meleeburns. -- Pteryx

[Amele]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

* RDM isn't desired by meleeburn parties over WHM because of some myth of a moving party. RDM is desired over WHM because meleeburn parties don't stop to rest, they try to chain infinity, sometimes even pulling new mobs before the current mob is dead. WHM needs to rest to regain MP. RDM doesn't need to nearly as much thanks to Convert and Refresh.

realistically speaking, there is no functional difference between a party that stage kills by having a bard bring the mob to the pt before sleeping, and a party that stage kills by running from slept mob to slept mob, except that one covers more ground in the latter (allowing less target-rich areas to be used for exp as well) the only difference is that a whitemage is even *less* efficient in a traditional roaming pt than the modern stage kill pt. RDM is desired over whm in meleeburn because rdm is enough curing for the job with refresh and dispel and hopefully "Dia III" as bonuses, rather than because a whm 'can't rest' (a good healer can spend as much as half their time in a stage pulling situation resting for mp, but redmage can of course do this as well.)

* While I don't think that WHM can be made to be desirable over RDM as a meleeburn healer, I do think things can be done to make it more clearly a better healer than RDM outside of that specialty. Making Healing Magic skill matter more, as others have said, would be a good start -- though SMN needs to be given a little more love before that can be messed with (say, making avatar accuracy be based on summoning magic skill on the same formula as weapon accuracy?). [/quote]

whitemage is already the (obviously) best healer, outside of party situations. in fact, until you start talking about alliance+ events, whitemage is basically too much healing. - making healing magic matter more will gimp summoner more than be a discriminator between rdm and whm, since rdm has mainjob skill. (unless you do something extreme like make healing magic +1 = cure value+1 or something equally silly)

I favor making WHM more blatantly efficient and even better at status heals and protection, by taking steps such as:
** Improving the higher-tier Regen spells, possibly by increasing their duration to make them as MP-efficient as Regen I, or progressively reducing the casting times of higher tiers a la the Ni spells

these are already the most efficient spells outside of Cure V / Curaga III/Curaga IV in terms of hp/mp ratios, and can be improved by +8 with smart merit choices, allowing a whitemage to downrank across the entire regen spell line. doesn't mean you can prevent the bard or pld/nin in the pt from overcuring ontop of them anyway.

** Giving post-sub-level WHMs flat-out Cure Potency job traits

whm is already +10% over rdm, and can (pretty easily) get to +35% potency over a rdm (healing feather + medicine ring + yellow HP). cure potency is good but overcuring can ruin any efficiency gains pretty fast - and unfortunately, the cure spells are spaced too far apart to justify downranking before approximately 80% cure potency (whitemage can only approach this in the most ideal of circumstances)

** Seperate Divine Veil from Divine Seal, making it a job ability on a five-minute timer, thus allowing WHMs to display this unique ability often and not at the expense of an efficient life-saving act (this would also have the nice side-effect of making more mob types viable as XP mobs as long as you have a WHM)

this is good, although I can't admit to remembering the last time I felt a need to use divine seal outside of a level capped BC situation, so I'd probably be ok with cranking DS down to 5 minutes and leaving divine veil attached to it.

** Make the Barstatus spells more effective (the same can be said of the matching bard songs)

this would be useful but not for merit, 90% of the relevant merit mobs don't do a debuff attack that would warrant bar-spelling.

** Add Amnesna, Terrona, etc. in the 60s, or at least Baramnesra and the like
...and see if the mob mentality can still call that gimp compared to RDM/WHM in non-meleeburns. -- Pteryx

baramnesira would be useful for meripo, assuming you buffed barstatus as above; I also disagree that the mob mentality considers whitemage gimp outside of meripo in the first place - just that, unlike pld (who can change roles) whitemage *can't* really be a non-healer. (whitemage DD is laughable compared to a serious heavy DD, unlike pld who gets an A+ weapon, High Strength, and access to melee gear.)

the fact of the matter is that whitemage is too much healing for one party and because of intense focus, can't bring enough other traits to the field.

-- and we've significantly derailed a redmage-centric topic.

[Karinya]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

I agree, neither WHM or RDM are broken, ToAU mobs are. Fix the source of the problem (as far as WHM having 'problems' finding parties) by making ToAU mobs a little harder and maybe pre-ToAU mobs a tiny bit easier.
Though this has little to do with the thread topic.

I don't think pre-TAU mobs should be easier, but maybe their exp values should be increased.

Some of the TAU-specific mob families most prone to abuse (especially colibris and imps, maybe mamool ja a little) need more HP or something, so they can't be killed quite as fast. Lesser Colibri and Aht Urhgan Attercops have overlapping level ranges. Anyone want to argue that that accurately reflects their actual dangerousness, even if you don't have piercing damage in the party? (Monsters with a damage type weakness should generally be evaluated for difficulty under the assumption that the party will be exploiting that weakness with at least half their DDs.)

Check ratings and exp values need to be adjusted for 70+ parties so that many mobs currently checking as VT start checking T and giving exp accordingly. Look at how long it takes a level 60 party to kill a low VT mob (not a TAU family, since some of those have their own problems; let's say Kuftal spiders and raptors, or KRT scorpions and beetles) and recover for the next mob. Anything that dies significantly faster than that to 75s shouldn't be checking VT to them, or giving VT-sized exp.

And I disagree that it has nothing to do with the thread topic: it's at the core of nearly every balance and job-desirability issue that has plagued the game since TAU came out. Until the global issues are dealt with, any change to specific jobs (improving WHM or PLD, a nerf to /NIN, or whatever) would just be nibbling at the edges.

[Vyuru]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

let's say Kuftal spiders and raptors, or KRT scorpions and beetles) and recover for the next mob. Anything that dies significantly faster than that to 75s shouldn't be checking VT to them, or giving VT-sized exp.

Or else adjust exp rates to the amount of merit points you have, the more merits the lower the exp.

[Amele]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

Or else adjust exp rates to the amount of merit points you have, the more merits the lower the exp.

this would just invalidate even more camps than currently from exp (and limit exping to pretty much uleguerand range, rams in tavnazia, and some of the IT mobs in AU) and, depending on how implemented, maybe re-open some of the popular 40 and 50 level cap areas to meripo again.

that and your player population would scream. it's already hard enough to get any significant number of merits (it can take close to the amount of exp it takes to level an entire job from 1 to 70+ to approach capping your generals and one job's cat I's and II's). Making it any bigger of a time-sink will leave a very bad taste in the playerbase's mouth, whether it's for "Balance" reasons or not.

SE has been trying to hammer into us since the beginning of the game that you should be fighting VT and not IT - it just took hitting 75 and only having VT to fight that finally hammered it into the playerbase.

[Vyuru]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

this would just invalidate even more camps than currently from exp (and limit exping to pretty much uleguerand range, rams in tavnazia, and some of the IT mobs in AU) and, depending on how implemented, maybe re-open some of the popular 40 and 50 level cap areas to meripo again.

Pretty much yeah, but I'd also assume that SE would create some zones/exp areas so that the mobs would be VT-IT+ to merited players.

And keep in mind, once you start gaining merits what the mobs check as just gets thrown out the window. When you have say, 4-5 +weapon merits, I'm sure that VT mob should be checking EM, possibly even DC, yet it still gives VT exp.

[Amele]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

mobs continue to check VT forever, since the 'easy prey -> Incredibly tough' scale is just a level comparison and your level remains 75.

what does change is the 'high / low defense' and 'high / low evasion' checks. but these change with gear too.

all merits does is make it so you can hit VT-- checks without having to eat food (at which point food makes you do silly things like never miss or deal damage as though you're always berserked, etc)

changing it so merits did change how things con would just break endgame exp without SE going through and making a major overhaul, which would reduce the number of camps for 'new' 75's and break part of the point of merit (that you can exp with your friends and not worry about level gaps or how long one of you has been on job X.) etc.

[Karinya]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

It's not just about merits though - *unmerited* 75s aren't challenged by "VT" mobs the same way level 60s are challenged by mobs that are VT to them. The exp tables themselves are out of whack at 70+.

There's a reason exp tables change with level, to reflect the way player vs. monster abilities change with level - but for some reason SE neglected to implement any more exp tables above 60, even though they're obviously badly needed. That's why you have monsters that are no more dangerous than a T checking VT and giving exp to match. The fact that a merited 75 might fight like an 80 is *on top* of that basic problem - they're fighting things so weak they shouldn't really even be VT to an unmerited 75.

[Raydeus]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

I've been thinking about this, maybe a change where Refresh was obtained at lvl 20-25 (I'm still saying 20mp) and RDM lvl (main) affected both MP per tick and duration. It would also cap at the apropiate lvl when used on a lower lvl player.

It could start with a base 50mp regained (1mp/tick, 50ticks base: 50mp), and go up with skill up to 210mp (3mp/tick, 70 ticks cap @310+ skill: 210mp)

This would mean capped Enhancing merits and/or some Enhancing gear but nothing too difficult to obtain, and it would work pretty much the same way extra skill enhances SMN bloodpacts.

Base MP regain for a RDM 55+ would be of 150 mp, with every +30 skill after 250 adding 10 ticks to duration.

So we'd have:

lvl55+: 150mp (3mp/tick, 50ticks)
lvl 70+, skill 280+: 180mp (3mp/tick, 60ticks)
skill lvl 310+: 210mp (3mp/tick, 70ticks) .

Subbed it would cap at 50mp regained and increments in amount of mp and duration would start at lvl 40 or so, maybe 2mp/tick 50 ticks at lvl 40 and then go up to 3 mp per tick at lvl 55. This would mean a bit less mp but it would work because of the cut on the spell's mp cost.

This would also give BRDs some help for the lvl 40-54 strech when they only have the first ballad.


And last but not least I'd also cut cast and recast times by at least 20% to compensate the lack of AoE Refresh.



...And I'm going to sleep now, I'll check how this post DIAF'd tomorrow. =P

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

... :rolls eyes: You're still stuck on this?

This game has three forms of "Refresh" which can stack on each other now, PLD gained Auto-Refresh (at sub-able level, even), and various jobs have access to equipment which grant more refresh effect which is added to everything else.

Why not just skip to the end and get rid MP altogether? Every spell for 0 MP, how's that? Would save people the trouble keep trying to "improve" the MP regain system.

* * *

Fundamentally, I dislike this form of "improvement" because it has no trade off for advantage gained. It's unbalanced, and ultimately makes the game dumber.