Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

[Raydeus]

Extremely condensed question for the sake of format, but let me explain. =P

Refresh, specially when a RDM first learns it, is a huge drain of MP for a job that has such a limited MP pool compared to other mage jobs. It is true RDM gets Convert prior Refresh, but that barely compensates the load on the RDM (and it takes a while for Convert to really cover for the mp loss).

That load also prevents RDMs from really supporting the party at full capacity. As every RDM knows there comes a time when they simply have to pick what jobs to Refresh (usually tank and main healer if they aren't covering the job) and what jobs to leave out (usually DDs such as BLM, BLU and DRK).

A change to the amount of MP required to cast Refresh would allow RDMs to support the whole party without much problems, leaving more than enough MP left to use in other ways.

Now, the amount of MP per tick would remain the same (3MP), more than that would have too many balance issues to be worth it.

That is why I'm thinking on the lines of an adjusted Refresh (20MP/150) and/or Refresh II (25MP/180) which would bring little benefit to soloing RDMs but would make a world of difference for a RDM in a party.


Another Spell that should be adjusted to cost less MP is Haste (30MP?) but that's another thread.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

I would have loved this at 41 when I first got Refresh, but now it's not an issue. Even with a party full of mages (RDM, PLD, WHM, BLM, DRK, BLU), I generally have plenty of MP to keep up. It's just that the duration of Refresh leaves me without Refresh while I'm finishing my cycle, which kind of sucks.

Of course, I wouldn't have any problem with Refresh II, or with lowering the MP used on Refresh because it's just nice to get a little extra help. :)

As for haste ... {Yes, please.}!!!!! I hate when I'm stuck Hasting and Refreshing. What an MP drain.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

My RDM is at 58 only as of tonight(<3 AF Body), but I don't have THAT many problems with Refresh right now. Of course, I'm staticing with a WHM, so healing and Haste are both covered, leaving me time to enfeeb and plenty of rest. I have yet to do a manaburn pt yet, or actually have to do a full Haste cycle since I've always pt'd with a WHM when possible, so I suppose my opinion on the matter is slightly skewed, one day I'll do a normal LFG and see how it's like <_<.

But a meritted Refresh II with slightly less MP cost at the less would be grateful, since at the endgame level RDM's seem to be responsible for Refreshing and Hasting plus Dispel over enfeebling.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

Extremely condensed question for the sake of format, but let me explain. =P

You mean, "Can S-E lower MP cost of Refresh and add Refresh II?" wouldn't get the point across? :b

As every RDM knows there comes a time when they simply have to pick what jobs to Refresh (usually tank and main healer if they aren't covering the job) and what jobs to leave out (usually DDs such as BLM, BLU and DRK).

To be honest, I don't think it's as dire of a problem as you've painted it. Besides, drastically hiking the MP gain/cost ratio makes the decisions on who has priority on Refresh less meaningful.

Part of the fun comes from knowing one's decisions affect the party's performance--the relatively high cost and desirability of Refresh and Haste make each decision to use MP an important choice.

You mean well, but this suggestion would only dumb down RDM and makes it less enjoyable to play.

Edit:
There are also job balance issues; making RDM too strong can affect the relative desirability of other support role classes, not to mention increasing available MP to RDM can possibly entirely dethrone WHM from the healer spot in EXP parties.

What is asked for in OP is not needed, and would have many negative impacts.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

I have an idea for RDM, it wasn't meant for this, but it could work for this too.

Basically it was to add a new tier of Refresh, but at a lower level. Refresh is made into Refresh II and a spell named Refresh is made. Refresh is level 24, costs 15 MP and 1/tick Refresh. Same casting time, recast time, and same duration. It would recover 50 MP(compared to Refresh II's 150 MP). Refresh II overwrites Refresh I and Refresh I has no effect on someone with Refresh II.

Instead of casting Refresh II on a DRK, you could just use Refresh I.

The real point of this change is to make RDM more popular and more tied to it's identity earlier on. It also is allow parties to function better without a Refresher(or weaker refreshers, like BRD pre 55 and COR).

It is also meant to be paired with SMN losing "Lightning Armor"(Ramuh BP) for "Sage's Story", basically a BP that gives Ballad I. This way a COR and a SMN(/RDM for more awesomeness) could replace the very demanded roles of Refresh entirely. I also thought of giving PUP an ability(level 50) that granted an AoE buff that sacrificed two maneuvers and transfered the stat bonus(which I also strengthened quite a bit) and a Carol effect. Since Dark has no base Stat linked with it, I would have it only sacrifice one maneuver and grant an AoE 1/tick MP refresh buff that stacked with both Ballad and Refresh(and Drinks).

As for not being able to support the entire party and fight(with enfeebling for example) at full capacity, well I don't think it is unfair really. I mean, if a SMN can't be a full-time healer and a DD at the same time. Unless I missed your point.

Finally, I don't think this should be in the question area, since it's pretty much too specific and is a suggestion.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

While I think that the cost/benefit ratio of Refresh is nowhere near a crisis, I will say that I wouldn't mind the cost being lowered, or the max MP regained raised.

I don't believe it would take away from the game at all, we still have other spells to cast, and will still need to properly prioritize Refresh among party members. Having extra MP left over for other things is certainly not meaningless.

I also agree that Haste's cost should be lowered, that one does sometimes feel uneven. Again, I don't feel it's currently a big issue, but I would like to see it change. And again, I don't feel it would somehow devalue the priority I give to Hasting of party members. In the end, with both Haste and Refresh, not only is MP a factor, but so is time. Who do you Refresh or Haste first? Who needs it more? These things will never change.

I gotta disagree with Itazura about such improvements "dumbing down" RDM. We can't be dumbed down any further than our cure bot status since the introduction of ToAU. At least in those areas, WHM has already been dethroned.

[Karinya]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

I have to disagree. Both Refresh and Haste are already extremely powerful for their costs. Refresh returns almost 4:1 *without* a Conserve MP proc, and the usefulness of Haste is well known.

I wouldn't mind seeing a weaker version of either or both, possibly combined with bumping up the levels on the existing ones; say, Refresh (1/tick for 40 ticks for 15MP) RDM30, Refresh II (same as current Refresh) RDM50, Haste (5% for 15MP) WHM30 & RDM40, Haste II (10% for 25MP) WHM45 & RDM60, Haste III (15% for 40MP, i.e. the current version) WHM60 and not available to RDM at all. Perhaps a bit less casting and recast time on the earlier versions too (and of course you can mix them to avoid recasts, if you don't mind not having your highest level effect on everyone).

This would reduce the MP load of these buffs at lower levels when people have smaller MP pools and make WHM more desirable in high-level parties (and WHM/RDM a quite interesting new choice after 60). And as much as I like RDM, it really does seem unfair that our haste is just as good as a WHM or SMN's, when you consider everything else we bring to a party.

Another couple of spells I'd like to see added for WHMs: Regenga and Regenga II, costing about 2-3x the single person MP cost with the same casting time. (Thus, like Curagas, they're more efficient than the single target versions, if enough people are hurt.) Probably about level 35 and 55 respectively (so /WHMs could eventually get Regenga I). The MP efficiency of a ~100 MP Regenga II, especially with regen potency gear and/or merits, would be truly awesome (although the HP/sec recovered by any single target would be less than Regen III, so it would remain useful for parties where a single tank takes most of the damage), and the enmity would probably be much less than Curagas.


I'm not saying that every party should be forced to have a WHM, but that the job should have something about it that makes it not just another Cure-thrower, but a job with really substantial benefits that you have to seriously think about whether or not you want to give up to invite something else. And not all those benefits should be available to high level RDM/WHM, BLU/WHM or SMN/WHMs - each of those has its own powerful main job abilities, and WHM needs to have some too to keep up.

I think a WHM/RDM with Regenga II and that weaker Refresh would be very attractive to the kinds of merit parties that are currently dumping their WHMs for RDM/WHMs (especially if RDM/WHMs would now have not quite as good Haste as well). Of course WHM+RDM will still greatly outperform either job alone, whether it subs the other or not, but some parties won't want to devote the additional PT slot to a healer/support member.


Making these spells more fine-grained - so you don't jump from having nothing to having their full strength - is a reasonable idea, but increasing the top power levels of Haste or Refresh should be done very carefully if at all, because both are already very powerful and useful from the level they are introduced at to 75. Additionally, the WHM vs. RDM issue is significant right now (with parties trying so hard to cut their non-DD members to a bare minimum) and I think SE should beware of anything that would increase the current trend against inviting WHM to high level parties.

[Omniblast]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

The only problem I see with this is...

There will be a angry chorus of Bards after you.
Unless your proposing a change with Ballad I and Ballad II and add in Ballad III as well. Though, there is no casting cost with songs as opposed to Refresh. As well as being able to support hordes of jobs at once as opposed to one at a time.

I just don't know what to make of these proposals. It would be nice, but then SE would need to balance Bards and Corsairs out as well.

[Nazo]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

Here's an idea: if you're having a hard time refreshing and hasting the party by yourself then invite a whm, problem solved.
One job isn't meant to fulfill the party's entire support needs, if rdm can do all that by itself then the game balance breaks. If anything they should be making it harder for rdm to do all these things. Karinya's ideas are nice though I think.

[Mhurron]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

I don't want to do the party positioning fight that BRD's have to do. I'll stick with the targeted versions.

[Raydeus]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

I like the lower lvl Refresh idea, but maybe something like lvl20 10MP/50 so it's worth subbing along with Fast Cast (instead of subbing Ballad), Refresh II lvl40 20MP/150 and Refresh III (maybe merit spell) 25MP/180.

This reduction on MP cost is considering not only the times when you first get Refresh (and it becomes a burden), but also about Merit level when you get Tier II enfs which cost so much that you end up using Tier I debuffs in fast paced parties since the effect boost isn't worth the MP cost.


Also, along with an adjustment to Haste it would also make both RDM and WHM (lvl 40+) much easier to play for races like Galka and Elvaan while not having much effect on Tarus.

The more people you have to buff (and the less MP you have), the more you'll benefit from this.


And yep, I consider this to be a valid Question to SE since I'd like hearing what they have to say about it, even if this is part suggestion.

If the idea is to be shot down let it at least be by SE. =P

[Karinya]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

This reduction on MP cost is considering not only the times when you first get Refresh (and it becomes a burden), but also about Merit level when you get Tier II enfs which cost so much that you end up using Tier I debuffs in fast paced parties since the effect boost isn't worth the MP cost.

That says more about the T2 enfeebles than it does about Refresh. They do seem to need a bit of work to be really worthwhile (get resisted too much on HNM, even more than normal enfeebles; aren't effective enough to be worth the MP cost on merit mobs). But this thread has enough topics already :D More challenging exp mobs might justify the cost, if resist rate is decent (making it yet another symptom of too high a reward for fighting weak mobs).

I really don't think it's necessary or desirable to improve Refresh's MP provided:MP spent ratio above where it already is, or its maximum MP/tick (per person refreshed). If you want to have more MP available in your party, invite more MP users and refresh them too, or invite more MP restorers with different methods that stack with refresh (i.e. BRD and COR). The 4/2 (or in some parties 5/1!) setup isn't set in stone. Get a BLU or BLM as one of your DDs and have them do some support healing, or something. A DD/healer PLD setup is also a possibility at high levels, as is DRK/WHM. (The lower level issues are already addressed by my suggestion for adding cheaper lower tier versions, I think.)

Don't expect to fill the places of 2-3 mages by yourself. RDM can do a lot of things, but it's unreasonable to expect us to be able to do everything at once.

[Raydeus]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

Eh, making Refresh (and Haste) become less of a burden MP-wise has nothing to do with wanting to do everything at once. The MP savings wouldn't change RDM's role but it would make supporting the party much easier.

Although I do agree Refresh II might be too much since you'd have to give similar boosts to BRD and COR. It would be nice and all, but not necessary at all. (And it seems I've spent too much time trying to kill Shantotto...)

A cut on Refresh's MP cost on the other hand would be very helpful in many ways.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

Every one of my RDM's spells draws from the same MP pool; altering MP usage of a very commonly used spell will have an impact on availability to cast other spells, minor or not.

Buffing RDM, a support/healer role job, and it potentially can impact the relative desirability of other support role jobs, as well as the other healer role jobs.

RDM is HIGHLY desired by parties, AS IS; it's evident that RDM fills a need in parties, and does so ably NOW.

WHY MESS WITH SOMETHING THAT IS ALREADY WORKING, and introduce potential game balance problems?!

* * *

There is nothing wrong with not being able to comfortably sustain Refresh x6, Haste all melee, fully debuff, do all the curing, Dispel every mob buff, and dish out full level Protect and Shell to everyone while finding the time to run to the front line every fight to keep up a good Bar-ra spell.

It's a GOOD thing that we RDM's cannot do everything, and leave room for other jobs in support/healer roles. For what we can already do, we are more than good enough to party with.

[Raydeus]

Re: Refresh changes (20MP/150 or RII 25MP/180 both @3MP/tick), would it be possible?

It's ok if you don't agree with the OP or with any changes to RDM.

However if it's already working or not and the reasons beyond that why this would or wouldn't be plausible is what I want SE to coment about.