Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

[little ninja]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

Posted edited because Taskmge cant deal with his RL stress other then come on here an throw around a lil e-pen..

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

Im against this Spirit surge fails at the lower lvls because lack of jump high jump etc, And yes i have switch to my cor to reset the 2hrs of friends ls mates etc, Dont call for a nerf or you end up getting more then you want, if you want a nerf, take out the ability to restore 2hrs on cor so it stay balanced.

Regardless of the lack of Jumps early on, Spirit Surge grows in power like every other two hour... except Wild Card. Wild Card is just as powerful at level 1 as it is at 75.

At level 1 a DRG would still earn a stat boost and TP gain from their wyvern when they used Spirit Surge, though techically speaking, TP isnt useful until you can use a WS, so that would be a few levels later for DRG.

[Omniblast]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

That does make sense. You think you'd be worse at it or 'unluckier' at level 1.

I don't agree with this post simply because that's not how "luck" works.

A level 1 character and a level 75 character would still have the same amount of "luck" no matter what.

Luck is by definition is

an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that causes an event to result one way rather than another

To say that a level 75 character should be able to reset a character's 2hr better or more "efficient" than a level 1 character is tantamount to the definition of "Fate" or destiny. Which is not a Corsair at all.

It is a gamble to bring a level 1 job to anywhere dangerous, that's just how it is. I think they should be left the way they are.

[Armando]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

If you want to get all technical and logical...

It's not that a Lv.1 Corsair should be less lucky than a Lv.75 Corsair. It's that a Lv.1 Corsair shouldn't be able to invoke God-knows-what branch of magic or otherwise supernatural powers they do through their gambling at the same magnitude that a Lv.75 Corsair does. The odds don't need to change. The effect does.

It is a gamble to bring a level 1 job to anywhere dangerous, that's just how it is. I think they should be left the way they are.

That may be, but an exploit is still an exploit. That's just how it is.

[Omniblast]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

If you want to get all technical and logical...

It's not that a Lv.1 Corsair should be less lucky than a Lv.75 Corsair. It's that a Lv.1 Corsair shouldn't be able to invoke God-knows-what branch of magic or otherwise supernatural powers they do through their gambling at the same magnitude that a Lv.75 Corsair does. The odds don't need to change. The effect does.

That may be, but an exploit is still an exploit. That's just how it is.

It's probably not an exploit. Maybe they did design it that way. Maybe you don't really have any control of your luck, and that's just how things are. Maybe we are having a pointless arguement that will be erased from existance when a big giant meteor falls down and kills everyone.

Maybe SE will change how it works, since we hear so much Whine about it.
Maybe SE will give us all some Cheese to go along with our Whine.

[Macht]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

I don't agree with this post simply because that's not how "luck" works.
A level 1 character and a level 75 character would still have the same amount of "luck" no matter what.
Luck is by definition is
To say that a level 75 character should be able to reset a character's 2hr better or more "efficient" than a level 1 character is tantamount to the definition of "Fate" or destiny. Which is not a Corsair at all.
It is a gamble to bring a level 1 job to anywhere dangerous, that's just how it is. I think they should be left the way they are.

Can agree with this post, which is why I stated that a lv. 1 COR using Wild Card on a lv. 75 player should only be reduced effect. The gamble isn't the potency of the effect, the gamble is simply getting the effect it's potency has no basis to luck.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

Slap a level requirement on zones like Sea, Dragon's Aery, etc so players below level 65 can't enter much the same way as Dynamis. A nice side effect of that will be all those little level 1 voke bots will disappear and people who have had to put 65 levels on a toon will be far less willing to use it as a throwaway bot.

[eticket109]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

I don't agree with this post simply because that's not how "luck" works.
A level 1 character and a level 75 character would still have the same amount of "luck" no matter what.
Luck is by definition is
To say that a level 75 character should be able to reset a character's 2hr better or more "efficient" than a level 1 character is tantamount to the definition of "Fate" or destiny. Which is not a Corsair at all.

A corsair is essentially a gambler. While I summed it up under 'luck' that's by far not the only variable that effects a gamblers success. Experienced gamblers can read the indicators around them and use that skill to enhance their chances at winning. While a rookie gambler has a chance at winning a huge payout against experienced opponents, stretched out over a long time or many matches, the experienced gamblers will typically prevail. They aren't necessary luckier, but use their luck in conjunction with their experience to stack the odds more in their favor.

Thus, a corsair should have a better chance at a larger effect at a higher level then at a lower level. The missing variable that the game is without is some sort of gambling skill or level/experience bonus that truly indicates the difference between a rookie corsair and an experienced corsair.

[Omniblast]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

A corsair is essentially a gambler. While I summed it up under 'luck' that's by far not the only variable that effects a gamblers success. Experienced gamblers can read the indicators around them and use that skill to enhance their chances at winning. While a rookie gambler has a chance at winning a huge payout against experienced opponents, stretched out over a long time or many matches, the experienced gamblers will typically prevail. They aren't necessary luckier, but use their luck in conjunction with their experience to stack the odds more in their favor.

Thus, a corsair should have a better chance at a larger effect at a higher level then at a lower level. The missing variable that the game is without is some sort of gambling skill or level/experience bonus that truly indicates the difference between a rookie corsair and an experienced corsair.

Even with this, Let's take roulette for example. No matter what "you" do, you have no influence on whether or not you select the correct number. Whether your an expert player of Roulette or not, you have no influence on what the outcome of the number is. It is, infact, random.

In your example, you are basically thinking of "Texas hold'em" or another type of Card game. The outcome of roulette does not pit a player vs. another player, but infact to face off against the computer who is generating the numbers.

Whether or not I can guage when to use Wild Card, would have no impact on how effective the effect of Wild Card is. I think the name Wild Card is mis leading in fact. Unless it was actually cards being turned over and players are actually selecting a card that is facing down, thus making it "wild" or random.

[Macht]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

Even with this, Let's take roulette for example. No matter what "you" do, you have no influence on whether or not you select the correct number. Whether your an expert player of Roulette or not, you have no influence on what the outcome of the number is. It is, infact, random.
In your example, you are basically thinking of "Texas hold'em" or another type of Card game. The outcome of roulette does not pit a player vs. another player, but infact to face off against the computer who is generating the numbers.
Whether or not I can guage when to use Wild Card, would have no impact on how effective the effect of Wild Card is. I think the name Wild Card is mis leading in fact. Unless it was actually cards being turned over and players are actually selecting a card that is facing down, thus making it "wild" or random.

Yeah, but with Roulette experience will tell you what are best odds to go with and how much to bet. Less experienced are more likely to gamble everything on one number and hope to get it. There is still a stratedgy in place so you are more likely to gain money instead of lose it.

Why I still say the Wild Card's gambling part should be only that you get the effect, how well the effect works should depend on experience. I mean usually with roulette I like to go with Row block 2 for twice the amount I pick for column 1 and 3. Then pick a four block for half I do the columns. With that I've been more fortunate to break even or gain money, while I watch others lose everything because they keep going for a specific numbers.

Going with which seems like a good choice reduces the pure "luck" only part.

[eticket109]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

I don't know why I was comparing it to card games. Afterall, Corsairs abilities aren't pretty much all designed around cards or anything like that.

An experienced roulette player knows the odds much better then an inexperienced one. Sure there is a chance the rookie's number might hit big, but over the long haul the experienced gambler will typically stick with safer bets and come out ahead.

[little ninja]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

Actually roulette is a bad example. When you play roulette you watch for 2 factors. How the dealer is is effecting the ball. An then you watch how the reel reacts to the ball. Does it slow down fast. Does it take its sweet ass time to stop. Thats not even taking into account odds of where it drops vs where it stops. Odd of it landing on even or odd, odd off of witch row is hitting more which isnt, red or black or a certain number.. Of course maybe your refering to digital gambling. which most if not all of this does not matter. But it does on the boats, thats for sure. Its still random where it lands. But there is alot of variables you can factor in when you play.

IT should reduce the time limit on all 2 hrs by a certain % an scale up as a Cor lvls. An with it improve the chances that a Cor can eliminate the whole timer cool down. that way it means wild card. As it stands now it seems like a Cor can pick the ace of spades of a Deck of cards every time..

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

Slap a level requirement on zones like Sea, Dragon's Aery, etc so players below level 65 can't enter much the same way as Dynamis. A nice side effect of that will be all those little level 1 voke bots will disappear and people who have had to put 65 levels on a toon will be far less willing to use it as a throwaway bot.

I actually thought about this a couple hours back since its being abused for endgame purposes more than mission/quest purposes. If you've noticed, you can't call Fellow NPCs or Chocobos in overworld areas like Valley of Sorrows. Why should somone level 1-30 even be in an HNM camp area?

The only problem is setting the level restriction. You know how some endgame shells are, the really elitist ones will make you level this or that job/subjob. Whatever restriction SE placed, they'd try to fufill the level limit and exploit it all over again

On top of that, the early portion Behemoth's Dominion is actually a very viable camp in the 30s and Valley of Sorrow's is very viable for PTs starting at 59. EXPing on spiders in Dragon's Aery isn't nearly as common, so that wouldn't be such a big deal losing that as an EXP camp, hell, I think all EXP mobs should be removed from that zone.

I think Wild Card should maintain the same odds if members are in an acceptable level range, but change if you have too wide of a gap. EXP is already calculated like this, so I don't think its a stretch to adjust a two hour in such a fashion.

IT should reduce the time limit on all 2 hrs by a certain % an scale up as a Cor lvls. An with it improve the chances that a Cor can eliminate the whole timer cool down. that way it means wild card. As it stands now it seems like a Cor can pick the ace of spades of a Deck of cards every time..

Perhaps I should clarify - Wild Card isn't a garunteed two-hour reset, its garunteed that every other JA will reset, however.

1-4 don't grant a two hour reset, only 5 and 6 do that. After the standard job ability reset, there's other various effects. two of those are mild MP and TP boosts, two others fill MP or TP to full. The other two just reset the standard JAs like the rest, nothing extra from those two.

The fact that 5 and 6 can not only restore full MP or boost TP to 300%, but rest two hours is extremely powerful.

Let's say a SAM/RNG were to two hour, Fire off three sidewinders, be granted 300 TP for another Side winder, then two hour again for three more sidewinders.

That is insane and its possible, random chance though it may be.

I'm unsure if the "Manadiction" effect would restore a 75's MP to full, we know Benediction can't do that for a level 1 WHM to a 75 PT, perhaps that should be tested out by some CORs here.

I'll try it on my Taru and see what I get.

[Karinya]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

The effect of restoring TP or 2hours *does* increase with level - but it's not your level, it's the level of the person you restore TP or 2hour to. Thus the problem putting COR1 and Otherjob75 together. It's mainly only an issue with jailers, though, since there's a nomad moogle right next to sea; otherwise travel time makes it impractical to change jobs during a fight.

I think LyonheartLakshmi's suggestion is probably the best one: if the COR is significantly lower level than the party member, there should be a chance depending on the level difference that Wild Card has no effect on that party member. Something like
If COR's level >= (party member's level - 5), chance of effect = 100%
Otherwise, chance of effect = COR's level / member's level
calculated independently for each party member. A COR1 would have very little chance of affecting anyone above 10; a COR15 would probably hit about one person in a 75 party; a COR65 would miss no more than one person unless they were pretty unlucky and a COR70 would be guaranteed to get everyone. Normal party play, BCNMs etc. would be unaffected because everyone would be within 5 levels.

The effect could be scaled instead - a COR25 reducing level 75's 2hr timers by 40 minutes and giving them 100% TP - but the random hits or misses seems more appropriate to the feel of COR (although, of course, the effect of a successful Wild Card is *already* random), and are probably simpler to implement too.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why can a level 1 COR reset a level 75 player's Two Hour with Wild Card?

The effect of restoring TP or 2hours *does* increase with level - but it's not your level, it's the level of the person you restore TP or 2hour to. Thus the problem putting COR1 and Otherjob75 together. It's mainly only an issue with jailers, though, since there's a nomad moogle right next to sea; otherwise travel time makes it impractical to change jobs during a fight.

Even if it doesn't do 300% TP with the level gap, I'm more curious to the restoring full MP aspect

Here's how Wild Card breaks down from ffxi wiki, seems I was a little off (so sue me, effects and the roll is random, I can't control the damn two hour, I just see what it does):

I: No Extra Effect (Restores 1x amount of things)*
II: No Extra Effect (Restores 2x amount of things)*
III: 100% TP Bonus
IV: 300% TP Bonus
V: 50% MP Restore + Two Hour Abilities
VI: 100% MP Restore + Two Hour Abilities

*=It is not clear if this means that each spell individually has a better chance of being reset, or whether the entire amount of spells a player has is reset.What is known is even numbers are 2x effect of all odds. This Makes 1 worse than 2, 3 less than 4, and 5 less than 6.

At any rate, I'm not terribly whether or not the TP restoration or MP restoration is full on V or VI, its the job ability reset and two hour reset that are the point of concern.

And as a side note, move the damn moogle to Selbina, that's where he's really needed. :P

I think LyonheartLakshmi's suggestion is probably the best one: if the COR is significantly lower level than the party member, there should be a chance depending on the level difference that Wild Card has no effect on that party member. Something like
If COR's level >= (party member's level - 5), chance of effect = 100%
Otherwise, chance of effect = COR's level / member's level
calculated independently for each party member.

It's actually interesting, but Random Deal can be evaded. kinda weird that a PT member could evade a Random Deal, but its only supposed to hit random members anyway. Adjusting Wild Card to be like this relative to level would be one way to adjust it, but I think the levels should be set a bit higher, because a level 15 COR hitting one of five 75 is far too generous.